Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 10:45:04 AM
Those moderators like to threaten a lot, ban a lot, and reference the "forum rules" a lot but are always extremely vague in what rule they're referencing and exactly how it applies to what they are talking to you about. Getting a private message from the moderators or staff at EITHER of those forums is tantamount to the proverbial midnight knock on the door by the brownshirts. You know you're not going to be treated fairly and the only way to keep your membership is to say "yes sir yes sir yes sir."
Now, I've noticed the problem of overbearing, bullyish moderators over there for some time, but what was really the last straw was getting a "warning" about this allegedly "inappropriate" (actually only ugly) picture I posted on TFL that everyone BUT "TheBluesMan" saw the humor in:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/newbie.jpg (I don't recommend this for APS, either. OV)
If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.
These type of "moderators" (who frequently have little moderation because they don't have to) are why I've begun to notice that "pro gun" doesn't necessarily mean pro liberty.
The biggest problem, is these so called "moderators" have NO accountability whatsoever. Administrators also tend to take everything they say as pure gospel, because of course, regular members are ALWAYS in the wrong about everything.
Really what this post is about is power without accountability equals tyranny. Actually a better way to put it is the famous quote that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Here is the incredibly vague and factually incorrect message I recieved about the above pic:
"I have removed the photograph of the naked man you posted in General Discussion in this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190238
It seems like you enjoy pushing the edge of the envelope with some of your posts. Please take a moment or two to re-read the forum rules you agreed to when you joined. Remember, this is a family-friendly forum."
I responded by asking for specifics instead of vague statements like "pushing the envelope" (I probably won't get a specific response, only something to the effect of "If you don't like it then leave"). I asked him if the side view of an ugly guy (which by the way even the freaking FCC wouldn't have a problem with!!!) is pornography now
.I learned with "LAWDOG" that even so much as RESPONDING to the private message from a "moderator" if you disagree with them in any way is dangerous and could result in a LIFETIME banning with no recourse, no mercy, no justice, no common sense. If I had been banned from THR for say 24 hours, it still would not have been just, or even remotely fitting the "crime," but hell, at least it would have come and gone.
Before somebody predictably says "go start your own forum then" (real gutsy statement BTW) I actually started two quite sometime ago, and bought the domain for one of them. One I created because it's predecessor had disappeared from the net and the other was a direct result of being sick to death with nazis and other bullys that masquerade as "moderators."
Post by: brimic on December 06, 2005, 10:53:03 AM
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:08:22 AM
Quote from: brimic
Their sandbox, they make the rules. If you can't abide, find your own sandbox to play in. Pretty simple if you ask me.
I twice predicted in my post that someone would come along and make that easy and super gutless statement. Why do people respond to things they haven't read?I will repeat:
Quote
If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.
and here:Quote
Before somebody predictably says "go start your own forum then" (real gutsy statement BTW)...
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 06, 2005, 11:09:41 AM
I don't necessarily DISagree with some of your posts; it's just that, well, other people pay the ticket to ride on these forums. There is a level of politeness that needs to be adhered to, when you're playing in someone else's playground.
There ARE forums/fora that won't moderate us much at all. Some of them are a total PITA. AR15 comes to mind; if you like that kind of chaotic chat, go for it.
Decorum is maintained by disallowing certain behavior.
I don't always LIKE it, either.
But I want to stay and play in their playground, so I adhere to the rules.
You make your own choice as to whether that's the route you want to travel.
Fig -does not play well with others- nozzle
Post by: BryanP on December 06, 2005, 11:17:56 AM
Quote
The moderators and staff at THR and TFL have a propensity to have the attitude of "lick my boots or else I'll ban you."
No, they have an attitude of "abide by the rules to which you agreed when you signed up to post in a privately owned and operated forum.Do I always agree with the decisions of the moderators? No. I don't. I can think of one rather egregious case in which I strongly disagree with their final decision. However, that doesn't change the fact that the decision is theirs to make, not mine.
This has nothing to do with liberty or lack thereof. This has to do with abiding by the rules of the house. If I let you into my house as a guest and you start acting in what I consider to be an unacceptable manner I am perfectly free to ask you to stop. If you don't I am within my rights to boot your butt out of my home. It's the same situation.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:19:15 AM
?Quote
MPA, you tend to be inflammatory and looking to stir up controversy with many if not most of your posts.
And that is bad/evil/destructive HOW? Avoiding controversy is how most of the public lives their lives, which is why they only read Harry Potter books and watch Star Wars or Desperate Housewives. That is why a GREAT many bush supporters only want to hang around other bush supporters.
Post by: charby on December 06, 2005, 11:21:20 AM
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:23:06 AM
Quote
where is my MPA Voodoo Doll..
Yes the messenger is the bad guy.
Post by: Sindawe on December 06, 2005, 11:29:44 AM
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For being allegedly pro liberty based websites, the moderators and other staff at THR and TFL are downright bullys.
BWAHAHAHHAHAHAH What the heck have you been smoking MA? And why are you not sharing it with us?Nothing wrong with stirring up controversy, but there are ways to do so that get folks talking without getting yourself banned. I and others have done so in THR (and 'prolly TFL, but I don't post there much) and have yet to be banned. I've even disagreed with others on THR, sometime quite vehemently and I'm still there.
Quote
If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.
Translation: Agree with me or say things I want to hear, or I'll stick my fingers in my ears and sing LALALALALALALLALALALALALALA
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:34:25 AM
Quote
No, they have an attitude of "abide by the rules to which you agreed when you signed up to post in a privately owned and operated forum.
Do I always agree with the decisions of the moderators? No. I don't. I can think of one rather egregious case in which I strongly disagree with their final decision. However, that doesn't change the fact that the decision is theirs to make, not mine.
This has nothing to do with liberty or lack thereof. This has to do with abiding by the rules of the house. If I let you into my house as a guest and you start acting in what I consider to be an unacceptable manner I am perfectly free to ask you to stop. If you don't I am within my rights to boot your butt out of my home. It's the same situation.
This is a vast improvement from the "go somewhere else then" mindless posts so far, but I don't think you read my initial post. I was VERY SPECIFIC and clear about how the moderators HIDE behind the "rules," but at least in my experience, are NEVER specific about which rule was violated and exactly how it was violated. What's even worse is this varies like crazy from moderator to moderator. This wouldn't be an issue if there was some sort of appeals process or jeez some moderation for moderators that CLEARLY abuse their power, but there isn't anything of the sort.Do I always agree with the decisions of the moderators? No. I don't. I can think of one rather egregious case in which I strongly disagree with their final decision. However, that doesn't change the fact that the decision is theirs to make, not mine.
This has nothing to do with liberty or lack thereof. This has to do with abiding by the rules of the house. If I let you into my house as a guest and you start acting in what I consider to be an unacceptable manner I am perfectly free to ask you to stop. If you don't I am within my rights to boot your butt out of my home. It's the same situation.
I think it's interesting that several of you are aware of the injustice and total lack of accountability OR EVEN RECOURSE, yet keep implying that I am somehow anti rules or some nonsense.
Just because I'm daring to talk about the elephant in the room doesn't make ME the bad guy.
People can sit and make "it's their house" analogies all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that the things I'm talking about have a very negative impact on TFL and THR (and the already fractured pro gun movement) and are worth discussing.
Post by: cordex on December 06, 2005, 11:36:24 AM
I don't always agree with all moderator decisions either. I'm especially uncomfortable with the lifetime ban as the only solution to someone who is making trouble.
Without knowing the whole story about you and LawDog, I can't make a judgement there, but I've always found him to be a very reasonable chap.
Can't say I blame TheBluesMan for deleting the image of the naked, fat man. I wouldn't want someone posting that on my forum either.
Making comparisons to Nazis is rediculous. Much as you hate to hear it, these forums are private property. I've got my own forum, and I pay all server costs, domain costs and handle all the programming and server updates myself. Freedom minded as I am, if you went on there and posted that picture I'd remove it and warn you myself.
I advocate freedom from governmental intervention. Other freedom will be handled by the market as people vote with their feet.
What do you propose as the solution, MasterpieceArms? I mean, other than "start your own forum" or "find a forum that allows the kind of content you enjoy" which is apparently not something you want to hear. Do you advocate seizure of forum control from the paid owners?
Post by: Paddy on December 06, 2005, 11:40:48 AM
If your mutual fund isn't investing in the exact stocks you want, can you demand that they follow your desires?
Post by: Declaration Day on December 06, 2005, 11:40:58 AM
Nonetheless, MPA, I don't totally disagree with you. While I have not personally butted heads with any of the moderators here or on THR, I have noticed that some of them do not adhere to the standards of conduct they are appointed to uphold.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:44:59 AM
Quote
Do you advocate seizure of forum control from the paid owners?
I have not so much as implied anything of the sort. All I am doing with this topic is discussing something that I believe virtually never gets discussed because of fear of bannings.Quote
Freedom minded as I am, if you went on there and posted that picture I'd remove it and warn you myself.
I honestly would like to know why. It's not even close to pornographic. I've seen things said and shown during "family shows" during the "family hour" on the FCC's television bandwidth that are actually bad.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 11:50:27 AM
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This is a private forum, and the rules of the owner and moderators apply. As BryanP said above, it's no different than expecting guests in my home to follow my rules.
I guess I will just keep repeating until it sticks that I AM NOT ANTI RULES! I AM NOT ANTI DECORUM! Of course we want people in our homes to follow our rules, but if someone violates some house rule of yours, do you immediately get parental, arrogant, and vague with them, or do maintain POLITENESS YOURSELF? Of course, you would try to maintain goodwill unless the situation was quite egregious. You wouldn't immediately grab a guest and physically throw them out if they didn't put a drink on a coaster would you? You wouldn't put up with merciless treatment from a supposed friend if you were the 'offender' would you?Quote
Nonetheless, MPA, I don't totally disagree with you. While I have not personally butted heads with any of the moderators here or on THR, I have noticed that some of them do not adhere to the standards of conduct they are appointed to uphold.
A-M-E-N to the last half of that sentence!!! :hands clapping: What really is incredible to behold is that administrators utterly refuse to moderate the moderators in those situations.
Post by: Declaration Day on December 06, 2005, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: Masterpiece Arms.com
I guess I will just keep repeating until it sticks that I AM NOT ANTI RULES!
Actually MPA, I took my time composing my post, and as a result, did not get a chance to view everyone else's comments (which appeared in the interim) before posting it. I did not intend to beat a dead horse.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 12:14:58 PM
Post by: Declaration Day on December 06, 2005, 12:18:53 PM
Quote from: Masterpiece Arms.com
Fair 'nuf. BTW, I have tons of respect for someone who will go to the trouble of making a clarification post like that.
Thank you. Though I have yet to have any personal problems with moderators, I have had conflicts with other members about politeness, and about stating a position without attempting to make others feel stupid.
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 06, 2005, 12:24:37 PM
So what is the problem, really, MPA?
Are you just pissed because you were banned there, so you need to vent at folks who still have access?
After you've vented and bad-mouthed those folks behind their backs (class act, there!), some of whom I've met, locked horns with on occasion, and now consider friends, what will that do for you, make you write less inflammatory threads? Something makes me doubt that, because I've been watching your threads from Day 1. You play the game like the Thrill Seeker segment of Kentucky Fried Movie, stirring up crap and generally pissing people off under the weak premise of forcing people to think outside the box. Now you wonder why your online presence was terminated? I do indeed want some of the same stuff you're smoking. You aren't the only swinging d*@k that thinks outside the box on this planet, btw.
Do you think TFL and THR really give a rat's patootie about what you think of their forum and moderators after you've been booted there? If you do, the clue bird doesn't come to your house very often.
Again, if you want a public forum where you can play coy games with moderators and screw with other people, start one. Nobody's stopping you. Hell, I'll encourage you, who needs decorum, anyway? If you need a template, there's always DemocraticUnderground, DailyKos, AR15.com, pirate4x4, and the like. Sorry that's not the answer you like, but I just don't see the summary execution of the owners and moderators of TFL and THR, and the raping and pillaging of their surviving families, as a plausible solution to the MasterPieceArms problem.
There is no elephant in the room, giving THR and TFL a bad name in the pro-gun world. As a matter of fact, both TFL and THR are one of the most successful and highly-respected online gun forums that ever were.
There was, however, something that smelled bad, and was causing a foul stench before the moderators at both forums took action and removed the striped vermin from the premises. How they chose to do that is quite literally their business, but they took care of the problem. You weren't injured, maimed, or killed. Your chastity wasn't violated, nor were you taken advantage of. Your virtue was untouched, and what honor you showed up with left with you, along with your nasty pictures. You were simply banned from an online forum. You'll live, trust me.
Post by: cordex on December 06, 2005, 12:35:18 PM
Quote
I honestly would like to know why. It's not even close to pornographic. I've seen things said and shown during "family shows" during the "family hour" on the FCC's television bandwidth that are actually bad.
It doesn't have to do with it being pornographic; it is simply in exceptionally poor taste.As for the FCC allowing worse, I could care less. What some beancounter in the FCC thinks fits their minimum standards and what I would be comfortable with being posted on my website have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The FCC doesn't regulate my forum, I do, and that image is certainly well below my minimum standards.
There are some broadcast TV shows I don't watch, as well.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 12:50:31 PM
Quote
Again, if you want a public forum where you can play coy games with moderators and screw with other people, start one. Nobody's stopping you.
People who don't read before they post...priceless. Quote
Do you think TFL and THR really give a rat's patootie about what you think of their forum and moderators after you've been booted there?
Ahh, a world where people read what a person has said before they attack him. As far as I know I haven't been bannd from TFL, just THR.Quote
After you've vented and bad-mouthed those folks behind their backs (class act, there!)
About as classy as misrepresenting what I've said. By the way, if speaking the truth about what certain moderators actually did is "badmouthing" to you, you're amazing. THE REASON I have to speak about "LAWDOG" behind his back, is because when he banned me for merely having a private disagreement with him, I couln't get into the site to SO MUCH AS ASK HIM WHY THE HELL HE BANNED ME (not that a person like that can be reasoned with anyway).Quote
Hell, I'll encourage you, who needs decorum, anyway?
Yea that's what I said, that I hate and despise decorum. Quote
...but I just don't see the summary execution of the owners and moderators of TFL and THR, and the raping and pillaging of their surviving families, as a plausible solution to the MasterPieceArms problem.
That is exactly what I'm advocating. Did you read more than 1% of this thread before you posted?Quote
it is simply in exceptionally poor taste
Quote
that exceptionally distasteful picture
And since everyone's "taste" is exactly the same that's not vague at all. This thread is about moderators at two sister forums who will ban or beat you over the head in the name of the "rules" (without mentioning any specific rules) when the rules say that what is off limits is pornographic and obscene pictures. No one would be stupid enough (probably) to make a forum rule where "taste" was the governing standard.
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 06, 2005, 12:59:04 PM
Quote
People who don't read before they post...priceless.
Oh, I read your whining and calling people gutless earlier, trust me. I got a good laugh out of a faceless screen name on the internet hiding behind an IP address calling people gutless. I chose to ignore that, much like folks on THR and TFL chose to ignore your posts. I mean, really, who could not avoid the mental picture of you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALA". Tell you what, I'll give you my home address, and you can call me gutless to my face, how's that? I need some entertainment after my recent paid vacation time in the Green Zone, so you can be first at bat. Back to the topic at hand - the truth hurts. You got kicked out of somebody else's privately owned forum, and now you're pissed off about it, to the point of going onto a sister forum, owned by the same guy, and badmouthing those same people. Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on December 06, 2005, 01:11:01 PM
Quote
Tell you what, I'll give you my home address, and you can call me gutless to my face, how's that? I need some entertainment after my recent paid vacation time in the Green Zone, so you can be first at bat.
Challenging someone you disagree with to a fist fight instead of addressing what they actually said, is, as you like to say "Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo" If violence is the only way you can "resolve" things, I feel sorry for you.
Post by: cordex on December 06, 2005, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Masterpiece Arms.com
And since everyone's "taste" is exactly the same that's not vague at all.
You don't find that picture distasteful?Not everyone's idea of what is "pornographic" is identical either, but that is sometimes used as a rule.
Quote from: Masterpiece Arms.com
This thread is about moderators at two sister forums who will ban or beat you over the head in the name of the "rules" (without mentioning any specific rules) when the rules say that what is off limits is pornographic and obscene pictures.
I'd say that falls under most people's definition of "obscene" pretty easily, but when it comes to TFL I betcha they could throw Rule #2 at you.2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.
Just replace Language with Content. Would you whip out that picture if you were in the "polite company of strangers" for a laugh?
Quote from: Masterpiece Arms.com
No one would be stupid enough (probably) to make a forum rule where "taste" was the governing standard.
4) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership.
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 06, 2005, 01:25:00 PM
Quote
Challenging someone you disagree with to a fist fight instead of addressing what they actually said, is, as you like to say "Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo"
Who said anything about a fist fight? I simply invited you to come out from behind the IP address mask and call me gutless to my face. You brought up the fist fight. I just want to see how much intestinal fortitude you really have, sice the "gutless" comments come so fast and free... 
Post by: Justin on December 06, 2005, 01:46:45 PM
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Before somebody predictably says "go start your own forum then" (real gutsy statement BTW) I actually started two quite sometime ago, and bought the domain for one of them. One I created because it's predecessor had disappeared from the net and the other was a direct result of being sick to death with nazis and other bullys that masquerade as "moderators."
Wow.You made it through almost a whole post before tapping out on a Godwin. Bravo.
It's patently obvious as to why you were banned from THR.
Post by: caseydog on December 06, 2005, 01:48:23 PM
You have the scruples of a whoring televangelist , lets go on APS and call the owner and staff a bunch of jerks ! woohoo ! But all arguments leveled at you must not be an attack on you , only logical argument allowed !
Oh wait , all 3 forums have pretty much the same staff , and 2 of them have the same owner, duhhhh, nothing like dumping where you play
Ray
Post by: Unisaw on December 06, 2005, 01:51:28 PM
Post by: Strings on December 06, 2005, 02:18:45 PM
I hate to rain on your parade, but it isn't a fear of banning that keeps people from talking about it, but an honest lack of belief that there's a problem...
Again, you agreed to the rules. They feel you violated them (FYI: were you to have posted that pic on any forum *I* moderate, you would've been banned too). They aren't required to explain chapter and verse as to why they ban you.
They're chosen by the owner because he (in this case, either Oleg or Rich) feels they can be even-handed in their judgements. DO some over-step? Sure... they're human too. A good mod will check with other mods, to make sure they AREN'T overstepping/getting personal...
Crying here about it just makes you seem like a whiner. Get on with life man...
Post by: USP45usp on December 06, 2005, 02:19:36 PM
I personally attacked WildAlaska, got a warning, was too stupid to heed it and got banned.
What you don't understand is that both Admins of THR and TFL are trying to make/maintain an upperclass board. Yet they are allowing some "over the line" posts but that picture was way over the line IMHO but that is all it is, opinion.
I've been warned on TFL and instead of not heeding it like I did on THR, I am trying my best to stay within the rules.
I've read your posts, both here and on TFL, and they seem to want to spark an arguement or to get a raise out of the general membership. I agree with you sometime, other times I just shake my head and move on.
I don't think that the rules are "hidden" or Vague. What I got from both THR and TFL is basically:
1. All posts must be Firearms Related
2. This is a family board
3. No personal attacks, trolling, or foul language
4. We reserve the right to cancel (ban) your account at any time for any reason
I broke the rules (number 3 in my list) and you broke the rules (number 2 in my list). You had been warned, instead of dropping it (the issue) and moved on you chose to fight, they chose to ban you.
I don't always agree with the Staff on all of the boards that I am on and I don't like the Banned for Life rule because people do/can change but it's not my board so I can only play in their sandbox until I am asked to leave.
Wayne
Post by: HForrest on December 06, 2005, 02:23:01 PM
-BUT-
I think people are going somewhat harsh on you. I do not agree with how the mods have banned a couple people. I think they do unfairly enforce the rules at times, and I'm actually mildy pleased someone had the balls to post a complaint on this forum. In the end, it's their forum- they can do whatever they want. There's nothing really wrong with wanting to vent, though.
Post by: Silver Bullet on December 06, 2005, 02:31:39 PM
Quote
the moderators and other staff at THR and TFL are downright bullys.
My experience is just the opposite. I have regretfully gone overboard far too often, and I've never received a PM from a Moderator telling me either to shut up or go away. (One thread was closed immediately following one of my posts, though 
The moderators have been very tolerant of my excesses, perhaps because my excesses are reactive rather than proactive. ("Hey, I didn't start it ...
)Regardless, I think they do a terrific job, and I measure that by the level of civility on both THR and TFL, and the very high signal to noise ratio. The contrast with non-moderated sites is the proof.
Name a firearms website that's better. I'll bet you can't, otherwise you'd go there.
Post by: garyk/nm on December 06, 2005, 02:40:20 PM
Post by: Silver Bullet on December 06, 2005, 02:50:59 PM
Quote
(after posting that an obvious troll might be more comfortable at DU)
Yikes, I've insinuated exactly that several times ! I must be living a charmed life.
Post by: Sindawe on December 06, 2005, 03:00:03 PM
Quote
Yikes, I've insinuated exactly that several times ! I must be living a charmed life.
Or you've been more diplomatic in your statements. I've also suggested to a few posters on THR that perhaps they'd be more at home at DU.Com, in just those words. Not a peep from the Mods.
Post by: brimic on December 06, 2005, 03:24:06 PM
Post by: Brian Williams on December 06, 2005, 03:25:28 PM
Post by: brimic on December 06, 2005, 03:37:45 PM
Quote
Of course we want people in our homes to follow our rules, but if someone violates some house rule of yours, do you immediately get parental, arrogant, and vague with them, or do maintain POLITENESS YOURSELF? Of course, you would try to maintain goodwill unless the situation was quite egregious. You wouldn't immediately grab a guest and physically throw them out if they didn't put a drink on a coaster would you?
I would ask that person to use a drink coaster. If they refused citing the fact that they don't use them in their home, they get tossed out on their ear. If a guest were to light up a cigarette without asking, they would get tossed without explanation because its an even bigger offense. People who have no respect for me or my home get tossed and banned, not unlike what the owners of the TFL and THR do.
Post by: Guest on December 06, 2005, 03:38:29 PM
No point in whining about it. I just quit posting there. I disagree with what they deem acceptable vs. unacceptable but its not my forum.
Post by: telewinz on December 06, 2005, 03:38:44 PM
Post by: USP45usp on December 06, 2005, 04:13:56 PM
If you notice in my first post here I said:
Quote
I've read your posts, both here and on TFL, and they seem to want to spark an arguement or to get a raise out of the general membership.
Yet I didn't call you a Troll because I saw what you were trying to do (get debates going) but just the way you did it was borderline in my opinion yet I still read your posts to see which ones I could join without it being closed. I didn't find many and 99% of the time when I thought it would be closed, it was.I have noticed on TFL that Sensop and Antiplatis(sp?) seem abit heavy handed but they were picked by the Admin, the owner, so therefore you should have Emailed him (Rich) and expressed your thoughts in a civil and polite manner.
And, I don't know if you have noticed but APS is owned by the owner of THR. You see me here don't you, you see yourself here don't you, you see WildAlaska here don't you? All of us mentioned have been banned from THR but Oleg and Staff have given us a chance to at least enjoy the main members conversations here since we can't there. If they were all "bullies" then we wouldn't be posting here either as an extention of our ban from there.
But, I completely understand where you are coming from, with the exception of THR, the other two boards I was banned from, after a change of management and a hell of a fight after Bill died (GunSlinger), were bull crap but I can't refute the banning from THR. Sure, I was angry at first and even did some stupid things afterward but then I started (and continue) to grow up. I messed up, I think the punishment is alittle harsh but it's not my decision to make.
So, I go where I can, keep the rules in my mind, think twice, post once, and if I go over the line I hope that I will get a PM but if all I get is an email thanking me for my time but I'm no longer wanted, I just have to move on.
Wayne
Post by: 280plus on December 06, 2005, 06:14:03 PM
I've had direct communication with a number of the mods at thr, never a problem. They know if I step over the line they can close or pull my thread or comments and I will not whine. I try my best to follow their rules. One thing you may or may not know is the server THR AND APS are on was purchased with donations from quite a few of the members you see there. $5000 total IIRC. So a lot of us feel we have a little piece of it and tend to follow the rules more closely because of that. If you could explain to me how that picture you posted was gun related I'd say MAYBE you had a leg to stand on. Here at APS it would have been fine. Pathetic maybe, but still acceptable.
Post by: K Frame on December 06, 2005, 06:44:38 PM
Post by: SpookyPistolero on December 06, 2005, 06:56:23 PM
I really dislike staunch adherence to rules with no consideration of unique circumstances.
That said, I do think THR is run well, overall, and like folks say it's their backyard. I've not yet had a problem, surprisingly.
Post by: Dannyboy on December 06, 2005, 07:06:52 PM
You then got belligerent just like you've done in just about every freakin thread you've started since you came to this forum. You got booted. Am I right? Of course I am.
Post by: Bemidjiblade on December 06, 2005, 07:42:58 PM
I've certainly partaken in my fair share of controversy, and have never so much as been warned, despite heated debates.
I would disrespectfully submit that you are banned for offensive behavior, attitude, and content. There are worse things than four letter words.
I almost didn't post this because I worried that it wasn't being respectful, but while I was willing to afford you respect initially, you've certainly forfeited whatever respect I had.
It's been made pretty clear that you aren't particularly wanted here.
In case you needed to hear it one more time: I'm tired of seeing the sorts of posts you seem to consider de rigeur. Stop or leave, please.
Post by: Guest on December 06, 2005, 08:00:07 PM
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 06, 2005, 08:20:35 PM
However much you may question our policies, we question them even more on a regular basis. And we do take constructive criticism.
Post by: Guest on December 06, 2005, 08:37:31 PM
No longer pertinent, since it seems the next poster took care of things.
It was a great post, I spelled words correctly, I didn't even use the word "ain't".
*snicker*
Oleg - hush, do not be telling everything you know.
Steve
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 06, 2005, 08:47:25 PM
Post by: telewinz on December 07, 2005, 12:34:59 AM
Post by: brimic on December 07, 2005, 12:37:04 AM
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2005, 01:42:22 AM
Oops, didn't see Oleg's post on page 3...
Now the camel's back REALLY IS broken!
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2005, 02:49:55 AM
Quote from: telewinz
OK, now for something more suitable, whats the better cartridge? The 9mm luger or the .45 ACP?
Actually, me and juggler shot ~ 20 " of wet phone books with both rounds. Hollowpoints I'm pretty sure. All rounds passed completely through the phone books. Quite a surprise. Raises shoot through questions galore. Meanwhile my .32 H&R mag snubby shot through to ~ 17-18" and stopped using the Georgia Arms .85 gr . FYI the 85 gr opened up and both stopped. The 100 gr GA round turned into a barrel shape, did not expand and only one was found in the books. I assume the other passed through. I Hope to be posting this info over at thr soon but I'm waiting to see if I can get pictures up again. So this is just a little preview for you buried in amongst the other stuff. 
Post by: Brian Williams on December 07, 2005, 04:23:00 AM
I like a good small hole swiss warmed to room temp.
Post by: Silver Bullet on December 07, 2005, 04:49:07 AM
)I didnt enjoy reading him because he seemed to open every thread he started with insults to the majority of the members here. Its like he was bringing us into the middle of an argument he had been having for half an hour. He wouldnt just say he thought a line of thought was incorrect, he would say the line of thought was incorrect and everybody who agreed with that line had to be a total idiot; all this in the first post before anyone could even discuss his points.
Still, I consider him an asset to the RKBA cause. I just wish he would channel his intensity differently.
If it comes up for reconsideration, my preference would be to remove his ban.
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2005, 05:17:02 AM
Post by: Chris on December 07, 2005, 05:26:53 AM
The real reason I've stuck around on THR and APS is that the Mods do a great job of keeping things above board, polite, and generaly on topic. Dirty words lost their thrill for me back in junior high.
Post by: SpookyPistolero on December 07, 2005, 07:08:22 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on December 07, 2005, 07:24:55 AM
Quote from: SpookyPistolero
Yeah, THR is really the only forum I take part in to any real degree. The main reason is I value a strive for tact and basic principles of non-aggression. There's just no room or need for blatant negativity and battle. Too many people think that starting a brazen argument is performing a civic duty.
If you look at all the forums I visit on a regular basis (TFL, THR, APS, CombatCarry), you'll see a common theme and it's the one you describe. I stopped going to a lot of gun and knife forums because there was no desire for tact and understanding.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on December 07, 2005, 08:40:40 AM
Uhm....
OK...
Didn't anyone ever take note of this in his profile?
militia.jufreeservers.com
Jufree...
Gee, I wonder what that means?
Post by: cordex on December 07, 2005, 09:07:20 AM
Quote
militia.jufreeservers.com
Jufree...
Gee, I wonder what that means?
Just checked it out. JuFreeServers.com appears to be a Juno (that old, pseudo-free email service) free web hosting site.Jufree...
Gee, I wonder what that means?
Although, now that you mention it, "Ju No" might mean something else ...
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 07, 2005, 09:37:01 AM
CombatCarry has at least one ex-THR moderator. Interesting and useful forum.
Post by: Sindawe on December 07, 2005, 10:04:35 AM
I guess some people are just not happy until they've alienated EVERYBODY around them.
Post by: grampster on December 07, 2005, 10:10:55 AM
Post by: jefnvk on December 07, 2005, 10:27:17 AM
My friends in real life will tell you that I am not the most civil person. If I can make it almost two years on both sites without being so much as warned, I would suspect that most people can avoid being banned. We all screw up at some point, that is what the warnings are for. It is what we choose to do after the warnings, that determines how welcom we remain.
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2005, 11:00:24 AM
Quote
I know what he said to LawDog. Wasn't polite or reasonable.
Oleg, I just want to make sure you know "who knows what he said" is a rhetorical figure of speech kind of thing. I wasn't actually asking anyone if they knew what he said. I got the impression you misinterpreted my meaning. It's kind of like, "God only knows what he said."
In this case God, Oleg and Lawdog...
Jef, I think what cama AFTER the fat naked guy pic is what got him banned.
Post by: Azrael256 on December 07, 2005, 11:28:54 AM
I was reading this yesterday, and the several hours of posts from other members well after SA stopped posting clued me in. I was wondering how long it would be before somebody figured out he had been banned. Aside from the naked fat guy picture *shudder*, this was a really funny thread. I would say more, but it just started snowing outside, so I'm outta here.
Post by: USP45usp on December 07, 2005, 11:43:40 AM
.Wayne
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on December 07, 2005, 11:50:03 AM
Quote
OK, now for something more suitable, whats the better cartridge? The 9mm luger or the .45 ACP?
1911 sux. Glock r00lz. But I still wanna see the Mythbusters blow up a refinery with a .50 BMG.
- NF
Post by: Moondoggie on December 07, 2005, 11:52:37 AM
Thank God and Greyhound........
At least he provided a bad example of how to win friends and influence people.
As I was reading through the thread I was cataloging the comments of others and composing a response of my own that hopefully wouldn't get me warned/banned.
Post by: Guest on December 07, 2005, 12:31:28 PM
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 07, 2005, 02:49:24 PM
He does seem like a rather argumentative chap, no?
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 07, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Mike, I ran "militia.jufreeservers.com" in yahoo, and it's not what you and I and probably a few other thought it was. It, at a rather quick glace, seems to be a very anti govenment site about being prepared to overthow the US government.
The name MAY have a double meaning, but I saw nothing, shall we say "non-kosher", on the site.
M
Post by: Guest on December 07, 2005, 06:21:32 PM
If its the same company that I think it is then they are an ISP that is predates the internet itself. They used to run BBS sites back in the days that one would "log on" by making a local call directly to the server machine, usually using an Apple II or a Commodore 64.
Post by: USP45usp on December 07, 2005, 06:44:53 PM
Just asking, is there anyway that Wild and I can get back on THR? Or at least Wild? Both of us messed up, I attacked him, I don't remember if he attacked me back (was within his right but he should have used the email I guess, I don't know), but will you and staff consider a deviation of the rules to put the trolls, the idiots (us), and the reformed (us) to a vote as to the punishment of our crimes?
Me, my ban probably should stay in affect for another 6 months or so because I think that I did stupid things after the fact, I can't remember. That was then, this is now and I'm getting the sauce under control. Yet with Wild, if he was banned for his responses to my attacking him, I ask that he be reinstated.
The banned for life thing, really an extreme punishment for small infractions of the rules. Trolling, people that continue to make the same mistakes, people that are just wanting to be a troll like person, granted, I understand that.
Yet, all punishments don't fit all crimes. Just something to think about. But no matter what the outcome, I will say that I appreciate the ability to post here even if I cannot on THR
.Wayne
Post by: K Frame on December 07, 2005, 07:28:39 PM
I should have looked into it a lot more closely than I did.
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 07, 2005, 08:34:14 PM
On ban reversal: I did all I could in creating APS. It had twin purpose: making THR more effective AND providing a hangout for you and me and WildAlaska. I am under certain constraints which check my own inclination to say "Yeah, sure!"
I don't consider the bad a punishment for a crime, more of a divorse between you and the forum based on a long-term incompatibility. Unlike TFL, where warning are seldome used, THR has a history of gradually escalated cautions and warnings which, eventually, resolve into a ban. We don't ask people to leave without a long history of belligerence (unless they are outright trolls or psychos, then the decision is easier).
If I come up with a solution to this problem that keeps everyone happy, I'll implement it. For now, please enjoy APS.
Oleg
Post by: Art Eatman on December 07, 2005, 08:51:20 PM
Now, pro-gun folks don't need persuading. For 99% of anti-gun folks, any persuasive effort is a waste of time.
What's left are the fence-straddlers. They've been told, among other things, that gun-folks are knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.
If we post stuff that seems to support the idea of KDNs, how do we convince the fence-straddlers, the neutrals, as to our own true, good-guy nature? How do we promote RKBA if we--as a group--offend people by hostility, bad language and personal attacks?
"Attack ideas, not people" has been the rule for both TFL and THR since I first logged onto TFL in 1998.
It bothers me not at all if folks disagree with any idea I post. All anybody has to do is point out where my logic is flawed, or that what I presume to be fact is erroneous. That seems simple enough to me.
What I don't understand is some amount of emotional involvement in a subject which leads to an absence of self-control in a response, where the person is attacked in lieu of discussing the idea.
Heck, I could even tolerate the occasional insult, were there some imagination, cleverness and humor. Ready examples include, "Sirrah, I shall not engage you in a battle of wits, for I would never attack an unarmed man." Or, "Let's have a battle of wits. I'll give you half of mine, so we can start even." And, "When you get home tonight, I hope your mother crawls out from beneath the porch and bites you!"
Well, they're better than, "You disagree with me, so you're stupid."
, Art
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 07, 2005, 08:58:38 PM
I can tolerate a lot of insults to me (many emails to a-human-right site start out as attacks), but I am vigilant in looking out for those I consider my guests (all THR members). Hence the drastic reaction -- I consider my actions on THR to be defense of a third parties who are enjoying my hospitality and who did not come to THR to be insulted.
Post by: Art Eatman on December 07, 2005, 09:20:07 PM
Folks talk about banning. I just flat-out hate to ban. It means that I've failed as a moderator. I should have spotted a problem before it got out of hand, and persuaded the "perp"--or perps--to mend his ways before anything drastic was needed.
But I don't see perfection, even when I shave...
, Art
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2005, 11:22:18 PM
Quote
If we post stuff that seems to support the idea of KDNs, how do we convince the fence-straddlers, the neutrals, as to our own true, good-guy nature? How do we promote RKBA if we--as a group--offend people by hostility, bad language and personal attacks
+1Quote
I consider my actions on THR to be defense of a third parties who are enjoying my hospitality and who did not come to THR to be insulted.
And I, for one, appreciate it. You guys run a pretty tight ship and most of us have only an inkling of what you're up against.I hate to see anybody get banned too because we lose the opportunity to maybe change their thinking but for those who can't be anything but a PIA what else can you do?
Post by: brimic on December 07, 2005, 11:47:29 PM
Did we just witness a nonbeliever get flushed into hell?
Post by: telewinz on December 08, 2005, 01:26:23 AM
Quote from: brimic
APS=THR Purgatory?
Did we just witness a nonbeliever get flushed into hell?
I love it! Only prayer will move you to the next level....THR or TFL. Or God forbid, the "Letter to the Editor" newspaper column. I think once a year, all banned posters should be given a pardon and allowed to participate in mainstream THR/TFL society. When will our debt to internet society be paid? What will be the recidivism rate? Is the quality of forgiveness strained? We CAN BE productive posters! We have been rehabilitated! It wasn't me anyhow! Someone stole my identity! I'm a VICTIM!
Did we just witness a nonbeliever get flushed into hell?
Post by: telewinz on December 08, 2005, 01:39:29 AM
Post by: K Frame on December 08, 2005, 06:55:16 AM
The ONLY reason I came here after I was told about it is because it doesn't focus on firearms or firearms politics (Masterpiece troll notwithstanding).
Being banned from THR was one of the more positive things that happened in my recent life.
If anyone's curiosity is raised by that statement, don't bother asking. I won't elaborate.
Post by: grampster on December 08, 2005, 10:23:46 AM
Ahhhhh....never mind. I'll wait for mtnbkr to chime in.
Post by: Paddy on December 08, 2005, 10:36:31 AM
Post by: Gun Runner on December 08, 2005, 02:17:09 PM
Quote from: Barbara
I got warned for asking someone how they tied their shoes after they stated that the only way a woman should be in the white house is with her head in a man's lap.
Not the only way a woman should be in the white house. The only way a woman should be at the desk in the oval office. There's a difference.Edited to add...
I just realize you ban people now for offending you. That's interesting. Someone had better start making a list of topics to avoid so as not to offend the supreme grandmaster(s) of the board here.
I think I'm gonna start punching people who offend me. Wait, there's plenty of folks in this world that already do that, and worse.
Post by: SpookyPistolero on December 08, 2005, 02:45:28 PM
Quote from: Gun Runner
Quote from: Barbara
I got warned for asking someone how they tied their shoes after they stated that the only way a woman should be in the white house is with her head in a man's lap.
Not the only way a woman should be in the white house. The only way a woman should be at the desk in the oval office. There's a difference.Your post seems to exude the notion that you're owed the freedom to be offensive in another man's home. If you said such things in my home, you'd be gone quickly.
THR and APS are no different. We are all guests of a gracious host, and it would be wise to respond in kind.
Post by: telewinz on December 08, 2005, 03:03:08 PM
Post by: mtnbkr on December 08, 2005, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: telewinz
Frankly, I have been monitoring TFL and THR less and less. They are both fine for what they do but they are becoming increasingly boring and repetitive. Time to move on but where?
Yup. After years of being on various boards, I find the same thing happens. You have to take a break from time to time. FWIW, I've found Combatcarry.com to be a good alternative. It's not as busy as the others, but it's just as civil (more actually because it's smaller).Chris
Post by: caseydog on December 08, 2005, 05:52:41 PM
Quote from: Gun Runner
Quote from: Barbara
I got warned for asking someone how they tied their shoes after they stated that the only way a woman should be in the white house is with her head in a man's lap.
Not the only way a woman should be in the white house. The only way a woman should be at the desk in the oval office. There's a difference.Edited to add...
I just realize you ban people now for offending you. That's interesting. Someone had better start making a list of topics to avoid so as not to offend the supreme grandmaster(s) of the board here.
I think I'm gonna start punching people who offend me. Wait, there's plenty of folks in this world that already do that, and worse.
As for the shot at Oleg , he created this forum for the enjoyment of the "Roundtable" crowd at THR , a friendly off topic board intended to be as unmoderated as possible and depending on the civility of the membership. Anyone banned here didn't have a history of "civility".
That was a pretty lowbrow shot at a person who's two boards you enjoy the FREE use of.
Ray
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 08, 2005, 05:58:33 PM
I've seen a lot of folks get wrapped around the axle in forum feuds, that probably wouldn't have done so if they were face-to-face with the other party.
I liken it to Art's description of "Internet Keyboard Kommandos".
Post by: Oleg Volk on December 08, 2005, 06:13:21 PM
Post by: grampster on December 08, 2005, 06:35:11 PM
You have just uttered the most succinct absolute ethical and legal utterance that describes more completely the spirit of being an American than the millions of utterances that have been made in that regard for 2 centuries.
"Attacks on me will get prosecuted, though I show more patience
in my own case than when others are being mistreated."
Oleg Volk, 12-8-2005
American
Warm regards to my American friend,
Dick