Author Topic: LAPD cop gone rogue?  (Read 38722 times)

Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #200 on: February 10, 2013, 05:06:50 PM »
remember that wikki leaks video?  guys in a chopper wasted a couple kids in a mistake?  what kinda punishment did they get?  charges?  second mortgage or any of the other interesting stuff you mentionedfantasized about?

Plenty of examples of soldiers getting put into the stockade for negligence. In that case, it was determined that the pilots did not act negligently.

Collateral damage happens in war. Are you really saying that police going after a nutjob are prosecuting a war in california? Guess what? Standards for collateral damage for cops should be much, much different than a pilot of an attack helicopter in a war.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #201 on: February 10, 2013, 05:17:27 PM »
so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus?  in fact wasn't there basically no investigation?  *expletive deleted*it happens?   how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it"  et al?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #202 on: February 10, 2013, 05:26:45 PM »
so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus?  in fact wasn't there basically no investigation?  *expletive deleted* happens?   how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it"  et al?

Because there are plenty more examples of military folks seeing time over mistakes like lighting up a car without PID, particularly on ground.

In the air, it's harder to get PID. Additionally, the totality of the circumstances suggested that the incident was reasonable collateral damage in a war.

You do understand the difference between collateral damage in a war, and during pursuit of a suspect by civilian police, don't you?

There wasn't "basically no investigation."
Fitz

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #203 on: February 10, 2013, 05:33:57 PM »
Because there are plenty more examples of military folks seeing time over mistakes like lighting up a car without PID, particularly on ground.

In the air, it's harder to get PID. Additionally, the totality of the circumstances suggested that the incident was reasonable collateral damage in a war.

You do understand the difference between collateral damage in a war, and during pursuit of a suspect by civilian police, don't you?

There wasn't "basically no investigation."

really?  what was the scope of the investigation?  didn't the guys on the ground immediately realize what happened?  med evac the kid that survived? as an amends?   what was the scope of the investigation?     don't get me wrong  i'd have pulled that trigger too if i thought i was protecting my guys on the ground. stuff does indeed happen
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #204 on: February 10, 2013, 05:38:13 PM »
really?  what was the scope of the investigation?  didn't the guys on the ground immediately realize what happened?  med evac the kid that survived? as an amends?   what was the scope of the investigation?     don't get me wrong  i'd have pulled that trigger too if i thought i was protecting my guys on the ground. stuff does indeed happen

All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them. In addition, during the VERY SAME ENGAGEMENT (wikileaks removed this footage), the helicopter declined to engage several targets, citing collateral damage concerns. Clearly, these guys weren't just out to murder folks

*expletive deleted*it happens in war. To suggest that this is in any way comparable to what the LAPD is doing is absurd. Almost always, the military makes a pretty good faith effort to punish those who go overboard, and it doesn't happen often.

Police, however, routinely and continuously show recklessness far above what I've observed in soldiers. NY shooter, this incident, many MANY no-knock raids against the wrong house...

Fitz

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drewtam

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #205 on: February 10, 2013, 05:41:14 PM »
CSD, are you seriously saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #206 on: February 10, 2013, 05:48:21 PM »
CSD, are you seriously saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?


if you can find that let me know.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #207 on: February 10, 2013, 05:49:53 PM »
All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them

will they show those soldiers in confinement during investigation?   i looked for the investigation didn't find it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #208 on: February 10, 2013, 05:59:35 PM »
All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them

will they show those soldiers in confinement during investigation?   i looked for the investigation didn't find it

No, but plenty of other times, soldiers ARE confined. It depends on the situation.

Again, these are soldiers in time of war. The standards are a bit different. In my tour alone, I witnessed two soldiers whose weapons were taken and who were confined to quarters pending an inquiry. Not a lot of jails available in country.

Additionally, my unit was investigated for returning fire against folks WHO HAD FIRED ON US. We were not allowed to conduct our missions until an officer from 7th cav determined that we didn't do anything wrong.

As for the investigation, wikipedia as well as google both have excerpts from the official army reports. Those reports were released to the public. Google Moar.

Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?
Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #209 on: February 10, 2013, 06:14:46 PM »
CSD, your *expletive deleted*ss is showing.

New-fangled more-stringent ROE are effecting what the ground-pounders procure to get ID on a target.  They are putting their your taxpayer money where their mouth is.  Interviews with folk coming back from their time over there indicate that such collateral damage is taken seriously as a heart attack.  Fitz's anecdote reflects what I have heard in all the other interviews I have given the last few years.

Relinquishing arms & confinement  to quarters may not be jail, but it might as well be.  Where are they going to go?  Not like they can hop in their car and drive to Tulsa to escape.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #210 on: February 10, 2013, 06:16:55 PM »
Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?

oh heck no.

but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.

with cops and soldiers i apply a test.  in their shoes might i have done what they did? if i can answer yes i take a real good look and try to with hold judgement. with both groups the biggest fly in the ointment is that first shot. folks assume their comrade had good reason and back that call with rounds.  or they mistake that fire for "enemy" fire and respond. thats the "stuff" that happens.     ironically i sling papers.  more ironically another guy recently got pulled outa the car when some lil old lady mistook the sound of his papers hitting the driveway for "zomg gun shots!".

cops are way outa their depth as prey. add in this guys killing family and one of their own i'm surprised worse hasn't happened.   in a perfect world you would use an outside agency but replacing 10 k cops would be a bit of a challenge. i wish this numb nuts would eat his gun and get it over with.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #211 on: February 10, 2013, 06:19:04 PM »
Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?

oh heck no.

but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.

with cops and soldiers i apply a test.  in their shoes might i have done what they did? if i can answer yes i take a real good look and try to with hold judgement. with both groups the biggest fly in the ointment is that first shot. folks assume their comrade had good reason and back that call with rounds.  or they mistake that fire for "enemy" fire and respond. thats the "stuff" that happens.     ironically i sling papers.  more ironically another guy recently got pulled outa the car when some lil old lady mistook the sound of his papers hitting the driveway for "zomg gun shots!".

cops are way outa their depth as prey. add in this guys killing family and one of their own i'm surprised worse hasn't happened.   in a perfect world you would use an outside agency but replacing 10 k cops would be a bit of a challenge. i wish this numb nuts would eat his gun and get it over with.

So your position is that the heavy handed response by the cops in cali is justified because they're being targetted?

Guess what? I was targeted in Iraq. Still wasn't allowed to shoot up cars without PID.
Fitz

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drewtam

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #212 on: February 10, 2013, 06:21:10 PM »

if you can find that let me know.

so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus?  in fact wasn't there basically no investigation?  *expletive deleted* happens?   how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it"  et al?

It is implied in this noise. Intentional pejoratives give intentional meanings, regardless of the passive aggressive use of plausible deniability.

If you think the cops did legally and morally wrong and should be severely punished, then come out and say it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #213 on: February 10, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »
It is implied in this noise. Intentional pejoratives give intentional meanings, regardless of the passive aggressive use of plausible deniability.

If you think the cops did legally and morally wrong and should be severely punished, then come out and say it.

unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.

do tell me  what exactly do you know?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #214 on: February 10, 2013, 06:26:53 PM »
unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.

do tell me  what exactly do you know?

Did the cops fire without PID? Pretty simple question
Fitz

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I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

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Blakenzy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #215 on: February 10, 2013, 06:31:54 PM »
Finally they released the bounty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0taYTsPBpo

I think they are more scared of what this guy represents than what he can physically do. They are shaking in their boots thinking about what will happen if such defiance catches on.
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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #216 on: February 10, 2013, 06:35:17 PM »
Quote
I think they are more scared of what this guy represents than what he can physically do. They are shaking in their boots thinking about what will happen if such defiance catches on.

You mean like murdering three people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?




Quote
but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.

with cops and soldiers i apply a test.  in their shoes might i have done what they did

Indeed.

Let me take ya'll though a VERY possible scenario here of what might just have occured that night.

It's the dark of the early, early morning. The Dorner thing has just kicked off and you have been warned at your briefing that he's out there, has murdered two people, and has some significant firepower and capabilities. Many, many suspects are found through traffic stops, by the way, so that's in the back of your mind.

You're part of the protective watch over one of the named targets in his manifesto. You've been issued information about a vehicle he is likely to be driving and the information that he may have accomplices.

Near the house of one of the people you are helping you meet an oncoming vehicle without it's lights on and in the fleeting glimpse of your headlights a truck that looks like what the suspect drives. You swing round and flip on your lightbar. You can't really tell the color that well in the bright ass strobing of the blue lights but you call in what you can tell to your dispatcher. The truck doesn't stop, it keeps on going.

Finally it stops. You've got the spotlight shined at the back window, trying to see inside and make sure one of the occupant(s) isn't fumbling around for a gun. You're up and out of the car right after you stop, either shouting commands or you or your partner is calling commands over the PA. "Show your hands!". Nothing happens. Movement in the vehicle. "Stop Moving!" Movement continues. Maybe one of the occupants reaches back, fumbling around in the truck. Oh *expletive deleted*, you think, they're reaching for a rifle and about to smoke your ass. You scream one more time for them to Stop MOVING! It's the nightmare scenario you've feared your entire life. STILL No response to your commands. Your partner shoots. You shoot. You approach the vehicle. In it you make a horrible discovery. You find two injured women who turns out, don't really understand English that well and having never really dealt with LE that much, don't understand the protocols of a traffic stop (i.e., keep your hands on the steering wheel and don't move around and wait for the officer to make contact either verbally or at your window). Where one of the occupants was reaching back for something? Turns out they were delivering newspapers and she was reaching back for a fresh bundle and pulling it over the front of the seat.

It's one of those awful times when you did the right thing according to your perception of the incident and according to the use of force guidelines but it turned out to be to the wrong people. Unfortunately, these kinds of incidents happen sometimes, much like friendly fire. A perfect storm of factors can make for a situation such as this.

In addition, cops do in certain situations have much different use of force rules. I recommend an in-depth discussion with an experienced, knowledgeable LEO on how all this works, you'll find some surprising information...it does not work like military ROE or CCW defense guidelines.  

Again, once more, we don't know a lot of stuff. So chill and let's see what the investigation turns up. I highly doubt that one of the cops looked at another and went "Hey man there goes one of them Japanese trucks like the shitbag drives. Let's shoot it up and ask questions later! We'll get some paid time off either way"


Now, if the investigation turns out they did wrong? BURN THEM. But I'm going to wait and see what the hell is really going on before condemning them. Or otherwise we are no better than the people who judged Zimmerman a murderer or any number of other incidents that aren't cut and dried from the start.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #217 on: February 10, 2013, 06:36:55 PM »
You mean like murdering two people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?




Indeed.

Let me take ya'll though a VERY possible scenario here of what might just have occured that night.

It's the dark of the early, early morning. The Dorner thing has just kicked off and you have been warned at your briefing that he's out there, has murdered two people, and has some significant firepower and capabilities. Many, many suspects are found through traffic stops, by the way, so that's in the back of your mind.

You're part of the protective watch over one of the named targets in his manifesto. You've been issued information about a vehicle he is likely to be driving and the information that he may have accomplices.

Near the house of one of the people you are helping you meet an oncoming vehicle without it's lights on and in the fleeting glimpse of your headlights a truck that looks like what the suspect drives. You swing round and flip on your lightbar. You can't really tell the color that well in the bright ass strobing of the blue lights but you call in what you can tell to your dispatcher. The truck doesn't stop, it keeps on going.

Finally it stops. You've got the spotlight shined at the back window, trying to see inside and make sure one of the occupant(s) isn't fumbling around for a gun. You're up and out of the car right after you stop, either shouting commands or you or your partner is calling commands over the PA. "Show your hands!". Nothing happens. Movement in the vehicle. "Stop Moving!" Movement continues. Maybe one of the occupants reaches back, fumbling around in the truck. Oh *expletive deleted*, you think, they're reaching for a rifle and about to smoke your ass. You scream one more time for them to Stop MOVING! It's the nightmare scenario you've feared your entire life. STILL No response to your commands. Your partner shoots. You shoot. You approach the vehicle. In it you make a horrible discovery. You find two injured women who turns out, don't really understand English that well and having never really dealt with LE that much, don't understand the protocols of a traffic stop (i.e., keep your hands on the steering wheel and don't move around and wait for the officer to make contact either verbally or at your window). Where one of the occupants was reaching back for something? Turns out they were delivering newspapers and she was reaching back for a fresh bundle and pulling it over the front of the seat.

It's one of those awful times when you did the right thing according to your perception of the incident and according to the use of force guidelines but it turned out to be to the wrong people. Unfortunately, these kinds of incidents happen sometimes, much like friendly fire. A perfect storm of factors can make for a situation such as this.

In addition, cops do in certain situations have much different use of force rules. I recommend an in-depth discussion with an experienced, knowledgeable LEO on how all this works, you'll find some surprising information...it does not work like military ROE or CCW defense guidelines. 

Again, once more, we don't know a lot of stuff. So chill and let's see what the investigation turns up. I highly doubt that one of the cops looked at another and went "Hey man there goes one of them Japanese trucks like the shitbag drives. Let's shoot it up and ask questions later! We'll get some paid time off either way"


Now, if the investigation turns out they did wrong? BURN THEM. But I'm going to wait and see what the hell is really going on before condemning them. Or otherwise we are no better than the people who judged Zimmerman a murderer or any number of other incidents that aren't cut and dried from the start.





statist!
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Blakenzy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #218 on: February 10, 2013, 06:41:19 PM »
Quote from: avenger29
You mean like murdering two people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?

That happens all the time and gets little attention. No, what I meant was targeting representatives of the State, showing them that after all, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else. It is disconcerting for those in power. That's why the bounty is so high.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:46:44 PM by Blakenzy »
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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #219 on: February 10, 2013, 06:45:20 PM »
Pretty cut and dried to me. Shooting without PID is a fairly black and white endeavor in war. More so when dealing with civilian police.

And, you'll never find out if the investigation reveals wrongdoing... LAPD is notorious for burying these things.
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #220 on: February 10, 2013, 07:01:35 PM »
Police are not military. Never have been, never should be. They are civilians with badges, despite their delusions of military grandeur. They should be arrested, charged and go through the same process as any other citizen
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #221 on: February 10, 2013, 07:09:51 PM »
Pretty cut and dried to me. Shooting without PID is a fairly black and white endeavor in war. More so when dealing with civilian police.

And, you'll never find out if the investigation reveals wrongdoing... LAPD is notorious for burying these things.

really?  seems most people actually in la disagree

but they can't see the big picture as well i guess 
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/22/local/me-poll22
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #222 on: February 10, 2013, 07:17:56 PM »
Wow.

A 4-year old news article. 

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Fitz

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #223 on: February 10, 2013, 07:20:52 PM »
really?  seems most people actually in la disagree

but they can't see the big picture as well i guess 
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/22/local/me-poll22

A little progress one direction does not negate the truth that the LAPD is notorious for burying officer misconduct.

Also: find something more recent. The fact that so many residents are cheering the nutjob seems to be at odds with your assertion.


Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: LAPD cop gone rogue?
« Reply #224 on: February 10, 2013, 07:26:46 PM »
Wow.

A 4-year old news article. 

Rodney King, if he were still alive, would give you kudos...


this better?   has a pie chart
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-losangeles-poll-jun182009,0,6836598.htmlstory
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I