Hasan, Muslims and the Army: San Patricio Brigade version 2.0?

[AZRedhawk44]

Anyone here familiar with the old San Patricio Brigade?

http://www.vivasancarlos.com/patrick.html

"History doesn't repeat itself - at best it sometimes rhymes"   --Mark Twain.

Back in the 1840's, some Irish immigrant boys came over to this protestant land as catholics.  They got any number of jobs, and large numbers of them enlisted in the army.  During the Spanish/American war, they ultimately decided that they could not fight against fellow catholics.  They defected in large enough droves that they got their own Battalion in the Spanish/Mexican army:  The San Patricios.

When we won the war, they were tried as they were captured.  About half of them were executed.

However, they are revered by the Mexicans to this day.  "Ciudad Obregon" is a transliteration of "O'Brien City."  Just about every city in Mexico will have a Calle Obregon (O'Brien Street).

Rush was talking about proper response to the Hasan issue and the concept of religious sympathies embedded in the US Army, and I thought of this immediately.

The San Patricios were dangerous.  Their artillery corps were particularly fierce, and they fought with fury for the Spanish cause.  Santa-Anna himself praised their courage and valor in battle, and felt that they might have won at Churubusco if he had just a couple hundred more soldiers like the San Patricios.

Are embedded muslim "5th columners" in the military as dangerous to us?

[jackdanson]

As I posted in another thread, there are 2 million muslims in the U.S.  If even one percent were serious about causing us harm we would be having a much bigger problem than we currently do.  In my opinion the restriction of freedom that would need to be placed on people in order to filter this kind of thing is not worth the potential benefit.

[Gewehr98]

Are embedded muslim "5th columners" in the military as dangerous to us?

Compared to the MS-13 members and all the other potentially subversive sorts already wearing uniforms?   

[Balog]

In my opinion the restriction of freedom that would need to be placed on people in order to filter this kind of thing is not worth the potential benefit.

This.

Compared to the MS-13 members and all the other potentially subversive sorts already wearing uniforms?   

And this.


That being said...

When a member of the US amred forces starts getting all radical islamy and trying to contact our enemies for a little friendly chat we need to say "Forget being PC" and smack that guy hard.

[jackdanson]

When a member of the US amred forces starts getting all radical islamy and trying to contact our enemies for a little friendly chat we need to say "Forget being PC" and smack that guy hard.

Yep, very hard.  Saying suicide bombings are a good idea should be the line for booting you out, actively contacting people should be the line for locking you up.

[brimic]

They defected in large enough droves that they got their own Battalion in the Spanish/Mexican army:  The San Patricios.

The Irish have always seemed to have  had a knack for picking the wrong side, fighting like bastards, and dying/losing.

[makattak]

The Irish have always seemed to have  had a knack for picking the wrong side, fighting like bastards, and dying/losing.

Worked like that in the Civil War, too.

[vaskidmark]

I am opposed to booting them out.  Make them a military prisoner for life - treason, insurrection, aiding the enemy, conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman, or violation of The General Article are good charges.

Military prisoners are treated differently from civilian prosoners, and there is a legitimate reason for the difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Battalion

The Saint Patrick's Battalion (Spanish: Batallón de San Patricio) was a unit of several hundred immigrants and expatriates of European descent that fought as part of the Mexican Army against the United States in the Mexican-American War of 1846 to 1848. Many of the battalion's members deserted or defected from the U.S. Army. Primarily made up of Irish and German immigrants, the battalion also included Canadians, English, French, Italians, Poles, Scots, Spaniards, Swiss and native Mexicans, mainly Roman Catholics.[1] Disfranchised Americans were also in the ranks, including African Americans who had been slaves in the American South.[2] Coming from many different national and ethnic backgrounds, all members of the battalion were granted Mexican citizenship upon entering Mexican service — none of the members, except for the few Americans, had ever been U.S. citizens.

These were not men who left the U.S. Army for the purpose of fighting against it, so much as they deserted it because of the treatment they received on account of their religion and "race" - yes, back then the Irish were considered a "race", as were the Italian, Poles, and Spaniards.  Depending on who you asked runaway slaves were either a "race" or something less.  The English, Scots, French, Swiss, English and Canadians were all Papists who were probably lower than even runaway slaves.

stay safe.

skidmark

[MechAg94]

Just to be clear, this is from the Mexican War in 1846/47, not the Spanish-American War in 1898 or so.  The fighting in the latter was in Cuba and the Philippines. 

From what I remember learning, at the time a lot of Europeans and others thought Mexico would be the winner. 

[Matthew Carberry]

The Irish have always seemed to have  had a knack for picking the wrong side, fighting like bastards, and dying/losing.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one. 

[Matthew Carberry]

Gen. John Eisenhower (noted historian and son of DDE) wrote what I believe is considered one of the finest books on the US-Mexican War.

"So Far From God"*

The book does a good job of describing how the Mexican War provided the military baptism of the men who would later lead the armies on both sides of the US Civil War.  In that regard the Mexican War occupies the same crucible of battle status as the French and Indian War for the Revolution or the Pershing Expedition (again, poor Mexico) for mechanized war prior to US entry into WWI.





*From the Porfirio Diaz (Pres. of Mexico) quote: "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!"

[Jocassee]

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one. 

Thread win right here.

*dons brown coat*

[roo_ster]

Thread win right here.

*dons brown coat*

Didn't you wear that five years ago?

[RevDisk]

Are embedded muslim "5th columners" in the military as dangerous to us?

Uhm...  No.

Sure, there's plenty of loons out there.  But there's lots of Muslims in the world.  A very small percentage are overtly hostile to us.  The overwhelming majority could care less.

[RoadKingLarry]

Anybody, regardless of religious preference or ethnic background that displays the signs that Hasan di needs to be checked out and pulled from duty.
The chain of command failed our soldiers in the name of political correctness and people died because of it.

[Perd Hapley]

Are embedded muslim "5th columners" in the military as dangerous to us?

When you say "embedded Muslim '5th columnists,'" I assume you refer to people who think like Hasan.  Some seem to think you're talking about U.S. military Muslims in general. 

Just hoping you could clarify. 


Edit:  I neglected to close a quotation mark.  I feel so ashamed.

[AZRedhawk44]

Well...

Look at it this way:  The US Army had German-Americans in its ranks in WWII.  But, they were sent to the Pacific theater rather than the European one.

The Japanese concentration camps were a sad story that need not be repeated in our history.

But I see nothing wrong with having muslim troops in the US armed forces serving in bases "elsewhere" than the middle east.

[Perd Hapley]

I think we need linguists too badly. 

[Leatherneck]

Yep. Trusted translators are vital to the combat/semi-combat ops in theater. But not at the cost of harboring "conflicted" Muslims of ME roots. That's a danger we don't need close.

TC

[AJ Dual]

Uhm...  No.

Sure, there's plenty of loons out there.  But there's lots of Muslims in the world.  A very small percentage are overtly hostile to us.  The overwhelming majority could care less.

Very true.

And what I think a lot of Americans don't get is that asking imaginary monolithic "Islam et-all" to denounce extremisim and terrorisim is like wondering why the Vatican does not do more to denounce the Westbourough Baptist church, or one of the Lutheran synods to denounce the World Church of the Creator/Aryan Nation etc...

[MicroBalrog]

The US Army had German-Americans in its ranks in WWII.  But, they were sent to the Pacific theater rather than the European one.

The most heavily-decorated unit in American History was comprised of Japanese-Americans who fought in Europe. It was the 442nd Infantry Regiment - though many of its members were first slated to fight in the Pacific. Other Japanese-Americans were translators in the intelligence service.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and in the spirit of fair play you could still be drafted from the camps

and that some were still locked up almost a year (10 months) after the war

[RevDisk]

The most heavily-decorated unit in American History was comprised of Japanese-Americans who fought in Europe. It was the 442nd Infantry Regiment - though many of its members were first slated to fight in the Pacific. Other Japanese-Americans were translators in the intelligence service.

Pfft, nonsense, of course.  That can't be.  We all know that we can judge entire groups on the hands of the few.   Next you'll be telling me that Muslims serve in the IDF.



Gdud Siur Midbari, Herev   

[AJ Dual]

The most heavily-decorated unit in American History was comprised of Japanese-Americans who fought in Europe. It was the 442nd Infantry Regiment - though many of its members were first slated to fight in the Pacific. Other Japanese-Americans were translators in the intelligence service.

Although, even if there weren't any trust issues with German-American or Japanese-American troops, I think there was a safety consideration for them.

I can't imagine their treatment if captured by their ethnic countrymen could have been very good. Especialy in the Pacific theater where it was generaly very bad anyway...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i would make sure i wasn't captured.  not much point   if i know the enemy will kill me io'm gonna take as many with me as i can.  i'd be more worried about "friendly fire" accidents if they had used them in the pacific. heard some of the navajo had to deal with the "they all look alike " nonsense