Taliban raid on Camp Bastion and loss of Harriers

[MillCreek]

I have been reading some articles on the recent successful raid by the Taliban on Camp Bastion in Afghanistan.  One item caught my eye: the total destruction of six Harriers and the severe damage of two others.  They belonged to a Marine squadron.  I can't imagine that there were a whole lot of flyable Harriers left, so I wonder if this puts a big dent in our capability.  You read about the occasional loss of them in training accidents, so I know that the numbers have been whittled down over the years. 

I have always had a fondness for the whole V/STOL concept and have followed these sort of aircraft with interest.

[AZRedhawk44]

Makes me think of Red Dawn, where the Wolverines raid the prison camp and toss grenades into Migs.

Let's just leave there. 

[TommyGunn]

I don't know how many Harriers we have, but the plane is fifty year old technology.  Newer jets are on the drawing board .... and thanks to numerous complexities, procurement of these is unlikely in the foreseeable future.  One particular jet was being designed in two basic forms, a straight ordinary jet and a VTOL.  That later design may never see actual use.

The Harrier is reputedly hard to fly....one mistake and KABOOM! you have a smoking hole in the ground.  They also aren't true VTOL; without ordnance hung they can take off vertically but with any respectable load they need a runway, albeit a short one.
During the Falkland Campaign three decades ago I thought it was interesting that the British used them in an air-to-air role, and their reported ability to VIFF (Vector In Forward Flight) would make them inordinantly agile and hard for an enemy pilot to contend with.  I recall being very surprised reading an article in the aftermath of that in a military magazine where the British CAG (Air Group CMDR) stated they didn't use that function in dogfights because the energy lost took to long to regain.
Surprise surprise.
We sorely need a new platform for the Marines....a new VTOL would be nice but it had better be effective and rock solid reliable for the leathernecks.....

[French G.]

170ish inventory, so not a huge hit, but big enough that the loss will be felt on airframe usage for the rest of the fleet. Not sure if we completed the deal with Britain to buy up all their de-commed Harriers and spare parts, that would be a big help to keep them flying until 2025 which is the plan. The F-35 will slowly replace the AV-8B and the F-18C for the Marines.

It will be interesting to see how the Taliban penetrated the camp. I'll play the safe money and say help from the inside. Love how they say it was a revenge attack for the video. Probably been planned for months,but it's about a video no one saw. I get the sense that Islam is always an excuse for these tribal idiots, just a good way to maintain power/keep the wimmins in line and/or excuse their barbaric actions.

[French G.]

I would suspect that the Harriers did not use much thrust vectoring because there was not much dogfighting. The Argentine planes were long range and low on gas to get out to the British fleet, about 5 minutes time on station when they got to the point of attack. Most likely the Argentines were running in low, or really looow and the Harriers were loitering above looking to interdict them. And, courtesy of us, they had the then latest and greatest Sidewinder, which means they didn't have to say they were sorry.

But in general you are correct, if you pretty much stop in mid-air there is one quick direction to re-gain airspeed. And you don't give up that altitude unless it is the only alternative to getting blown out of the sky.

One of the only redeeming features of Glocktalk, there was a guy on there that had flown in the Argentine air force. He had cockpit/gun camera photo from his Skyhawk during an attack on the British fleet. Holy hell, what a mess.

[kgbsquirrel]

It will be interesting to see how the Taliban penetrated the camp. I'll play the safe money and say help from the inside.

The 15 taliban fighters were reportedly wearing American military uniforms. That certainly had to sow some confusion regarding who to shoot.


ETA: And most likely to the inside help thing. I thought I shared some stories regarding the local nationals that were doing work on FOB Salerno in 2006, didn't it?

[Tallpine]

The 15 taliban fighters were reportedly wearing American military uniforms. That certainly had to sow some confusion regarding who to shoot.

Wait - William Wallace is a Taliban 

 

[TommyGunn]

 

[Scout26]

The Harrier was a neat idea, but it's a little under armed for it's primary role of CAS.  The Marines should look into "trading in" their Harriers and getting some A-10's instead.   Much better CAS aircraft.   

[French G.]

They would love them, but no chance of getting A-10s on and off a boat. With the 25mm gunpack as a primary CAS weapon they make do. The Z model Cobras will probably do way more than the F-35 will for decades.

[roo_ster]

The Harrier was a neat idea, but it's a little under armed for it's primary role of CAS.  The Marines should look into "trading in" their Harriers and getting some A-10's instead.   Much better CAS aircraft.   

The USMC would have to have access to all-grown-up carriers for those, even if the A10 could handle carrier life.  I do share your appreciation for the A-10s virtues, though.

[Jamisjockey]

The USMC would have to have access to all-grown-up carriers for those, even if the A10 could handle carrier life.  I do share your appreciation for the A-10s virtues, though.

This.

As bad ass as the A10 is and as much as I think it should be turned over to the Marines.

The role filled by the AV8 is twofold
One, the amphibious carrier is really a self contained fighting force.  Only thing missing is air superiority, but otherwise a MEU can conduct a wide range of operations that no other unit in the world can.  The harrier is integral to this mission.
Two, who's setup a runway on some abandoned blacktop with orange panels and sat in the back of a Hummer directing traffic?
The STOL abilities of the AV8 are far superior to the A10 when under combat load. 
Part of my job as a Marine ATC was establishing forward operating bases for Harriers, c130's and Helos.  We also studied how to accommodate other aircraft.

[brimic]

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2012/09/6_harrier_jets_destr.php

"The attack commenced just after 10 p.m. when approximately 15 insurgents executed a well-coordinated attack against the airfield on Camp Bastion," ISAF said in a statement that provided additional details on the attack. "The insurgents, organized into three teams, penetrated at one point of the perimeter fence."

The members of the jihadist assault team were "dressed in U.S. Army uniforms and armed with automatic rifles, rocket propelled grenade launchers and suicide vests."

Once inside the perimeter, the assault team "attacked coalition fixed and rotary wing aircraft parked on the flight line, aircraft hangars and other buildings."

Sounds less like 'Red Dawn' and more like 'Zerg rush'

[Boomhauer]

I thought I shared some stories regarding the local nationals that were doing work on FOB Salerno in 2006, didn't it?

The thing about the local nationals doing work at bases...it's a *expletive deleted*ing repeat of Vietnam where locals worked on base...then turned around and reported intel to the VC or took part in base assaults. Yeah, I know they do a lot of the menial labor but it is piss poor security.

[Gewehr98]

Read an after-action report today that said the J2 folks missed something obvious - perfect cover of darkness for the Taliban.

Here's the explanation from a different perspective:

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/afghanistan-when-the-moon-sets-watch-out.htm

[Hawkmoon]

The thing about the local nationals doing work at bases...it's a *expletive deleted* repeat of Vietnam where locals worked on base...then turned around and reported intel to the VC or took part in base assaults. Yeah, I know they do a lot of the menial labor but it is piss poor security.

Roger that.

Case in point: I was assigned to the 4th Infantry Division, based in the central highlands around Pleiku. Toward the end of my tour I was in the division base camp, Camp Enari. We lived in hooches, not tents, and we had local mama sans come in every day to make the beds and do our laundry. My group typically got off duty and went back to the hooch about the time the mama sans were loading into deuce and a  halfs to be hauled back to town.

One afternoon we got back to the hooch and, as usual, said to our mama san, "See you tomorrow, Mama San."

To which she replied, "No, no. I no come tomollow. GI go 'way, be busy tomollow. No see you tomollow."

It wasn't until several hours later that we were informed there was going to be a MAJOR sweep and clear mission conducted in the vicinity surrounding the camp, for a distance of 10 clicks out. Seems the base commander was getting tired of incoming mortar fire almost every night. Sure enough, bright and early the next morning (well, actually too early to ven be bright yet) we turned out, loaded up, and were trucked out 10 clicks to cordon off the camp, and then we closed the circle until we were back home. Needless to say, we didn't find anything. How could we, when the locals knew all about the bleepin' operation hours before we GIs did, and they had all bleepin' night to move whatever they wanted out beyond the range of our sweep mission?

[kgbsquirrel]

Here's one of my disconcerting experiences...

FOB Salerno, Khost province, Afghanistan. 2006. Working in the S2 shop in the TOC, and the SIGINT guys behind me have an active signal from a known Taliban cellphone. They proceed to DF (Direction Find) this signal. In the span of 4 minutes they watch this signal make a full 360 degree sweep around their DF antenna. Yeah, the Taliban spotter was in our base, and was literally walking the hesco perimeter of the TOC we were inside of about 30 yards from where we were seated. Definitely not a warm-and-fuzzy moment.

[seeker_two]

This....and other current events in the Middle East, bring two words to my mind.....

....Tet Offensive.....

[Jamisjockey]

We only win total war.  Nation building is so much fail. 

[T.O.M.]

This....and other current events in the Middle East, bring two words to my mind.....

....Tet Offensive.....

What about Tet on an international level?  That's a thought that will make your insides quiver.

Embasseys around the globe with minimal guard units constrained by PC rules of engagement...
POTUS more concerned about election polls and his scheduled visit on The View than security briefings...
People in CONUS more worried about the NFL referee strike than the events in the Middle East...
Hundreds of soft civilian targets in CONUS...

May want to check out those Get-home/Bug out bags, just in case...

[Jamisjockey]

What about Tet on an international level?  That's a thought that will make your insides quiver.

Embasseys around the globe with minimal guard units constrained by PC rules of engagement...
POTUS more concerned about election polls and his scheduled visit on The View than security briefings...
People in CONUS more worried about the NFL referee strike than the events in the Middle East...
Hundreds of soft civilian targets in CONUS...

May want to check out those Get-home/Bug out bags, just in case...

Just the  I needed to start my day.* Thanks....

(I'd better scurry to the gas station and top off again today!)

*Don't mean it in a tinfoil-hattery-Alex-Jones kind of way, but in an Oh-*expletive deleted*it! kind of way.

[Levant]

I guess I focused on the wrong part of the title for this thread.  I don't care about how old the Harrier is or how cool some new replacement is or is not.  The Taliban raided one of our camps and destroyed 6 of our airplanes.   And the Taliban still walk the earth.  What's wrong with this picture? 

We have surrendered in defeat to a bunch of pissant Muslims.  That they attack us and that we surrender - those are the real points that should be discussed.

[De Selby]

I guess I focused on the wrong part of the title for this thread.  I don't care about how old the Harrier is or how cool some new replacement is or is not.  The Taliban raided one of our camps and destroyed 6 of our airplanes.   And the Taliban still walk the earth.  What's wrong with this picture? 

We have surrendered in defeat to a bunch of pissant Muslims.  That they attack us and that we surrender - those are the real points that should be discussed.

Who surrendered after the attack?   

[French G.]

I guess I focused on the wrong part of the title for this thread.  I don't care about how old the Harrier is or how cool some new replacement is or is not.  The Taliban raided one of our camps and destroyed 6 of our airplanes.   And the Taliban still walk the earth.  What's wrong with this picture? 

We have surrendered in defeat to a bunch of pissant Muslims.  That they attack us and that we surrender - those are the real points that should be discussed.

Dood, it's okay, thread drift is not a bug here, it's a feature! And we talked about the airplanes because there is no easy answer to the Taliban walking the earth. Some here would say, with much validity, that we shouldn't be there where they can attack us. Personally I'm okay with us killing them there, but our nation building/installation of Jeffersonian democracy is a big pile of "not so much." About the only way to get rid of the Taliban would be to make a glass factory out of every country that ends in -stan and that solution obviously isn't one. So, they're going to be there and find ways to attack us, whether we are there or huddle at home. Welcome to assymetric warfare.

[Jamisjockey]

I guess I focused on the wrong part of the title for this thread.  I don't care about how old the Harrier is or how cool some new replacement is or is not.  The Taliban raided one of our camps and destroyed 6 of our airplanes.   And the Taliban still walk the earth.  What's wrong with this picture? 

We have surrendered in defeat to a bunch of pissant Muslims.  That they attack us and that we surrender - those are the real points that should be discussed.

Oh unknot your panties sweetheart.  Thread drift around here is common and allowed.