Taliban raid on Camp Bastion and loss of Harriers

[Hutch]

Is there a Godwin's law that addresses slavery instead of Nazism?

Colonialism and chattel slavery are only similar in that they have both been discredited by the judgement of history. Comparing the plight of British subject in, say, Inja of 1890 to a black slave on a Mississppi plantation of 1850 is disingenuous at best.  The moral horror of slavery is exceeded only by outright genocide, imnsho.

If you want to dispassionately dissect racism, as practiced in the former Confederacy from the end of the War between the States until, oh, say 1965 or so, feel free.  I'd love to hear how much better it was for black people elsewhere in the US during this period.

My own particular pet peeve is the lack of general awareness of the behavior of Federal forces during Reconstruction, and the resentment that bred, and the effect it had on race relations in the South.  The term "DamnYankee" dates back to this period, and is still used, fortunately with less and less cause.

We now return to the original thread...

[Balog]

I'm sure Sherman's march to the sea had nothing to do with Southern resentments...

[Blakenzy]

Of course not. They hated the Yankees for their freedoms.

[Jamisjockey]

Of course not. They hated the Yankees for their freedoms.

You sir win one internetz.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I'm sure Sherman's march to the sea had nothing to do with Southern resentments...

you need to look at sheridan in the shenadoah valley too

[MicroBalrog]

If you want to dispassionately dissect racism, as practiced in the former Confederacy from the end of the War between the States until, oh, say 1965 or so, feel free.  I'd love to hear how much better it was for black people elsewhere in the US during this period.

Not to mention the life of black people anywhere outside the US.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Not to mention the life of black people anywhere outside the US.  still

[Levant]

Who surrendered after the attack?   

Did we defeat the Taliban? No.  We're pulling out of Afghanistan.  In defeat.  That's the definition of surrender.

[Levant]

Dood, it's okay, thread drift is not a bug here, it's a feature! And we talked about the airplanes because there is no easy answer to the Taliban walking the earth. Some here would say, with much validity, that we shouldn't be there where they can attack us. Personally I'm okay with us killing them there, but our nation building/installation of Jeffersonian democracy is a big pile of "not so much." About the only way to get rid of the Taliban would be to make a glass factory out of every country that ends in -stan and that solution obviously isn't one. So, they're going to be there and find ways to attack us, whether we are there or huddle at home. Welcome to assymetric warfare.

There is a very easy answer to the Taliban walking the earth.  Defeat them.  Judging your signature of being a navy man, and the Navy Jack in your avatar, I'm assuming you're a military man.  Do you think we can't defeat the Taliban easily?  Get the politician generals out of the way and the Taliban becomes history as an organization and threat inside of a year.  It doesn't take a nuke. 

 You defeat enemies by overwhelming power, crushing any and all resistance.  Saddam Hussein kept control in his country just fine.  Most of the mid-eastern dictators did for a long time - until the US intervened by nation building.  I have full faith that our military men could completely crush the Taliban in such a way that no other muslim terrorist wannabe would dare to raise his head.

[Levant]

Oh unknot your panties sweetheart.  Thread drift around here is common and allowed.

I don't care about the thread drift.  I care about a bunch of Afghans attacking our soldiers and getting away with it.

[Levant]

Hell yeah we invaded a &*$^%^& country that harbored AQ that ATTACKED US!!!`

Maybe we should send countries that attack us sympathy cards.

No, if we had attacked a country that attacked us, we would have attacked Saudi Arabia - or at least have attacked Afghanistan on September 12.  We put a token force in Afghanistan while we attacked a country that didn't attack us. 

[French G.]

There is a very easy answer to the Taliban walking the earth.  Defeat them.  Judging your signature of being a navy man, and the Navy Jack in your avatar, I'm assuming you're a military man.  Do you think we can't defeat the Taliban easily?  Get the politician generals out of the way and the Taliban becomes history as an organization and threat inside of a year.  It doesn't take a nuke. 

 You defeat enemies by overwhelming power, crushing any and all resistance.  Saddam Hussein kept control in his country just fine.  Most of the mid-eastern dictators did for a long time - until the US intervened by nation building.  I have full faith that our military men could completely crush the Taliban in such a way that no other muslim terrorist wannabe would dare to raise his head.

Look, I gave you your overly simplistic solution. Glass factory. Someone said in the Balkans to stamp out the ethnic strife there we'd have to kill all the grandmothers because they kept the children at their knee and reinforced all the bigoted crap that the men were off fighting about. Any war total enough to eliminate islamic extremism from the globe would be brutal enough to destroy this country from the inside out. They will continue to succeed because we value life, perhaps overvalue. Losing several Marines and some aircraft is national news now. 150 years ago we lost 20,000 men in a day and nobody changed what they were doing much. I'm not hoping for a return to those days but maybe we need to harden up just a touch. Note the results of the Taliban's success, only one survivor, and that one captured. And perversely enough that result is almost a recruiting tool to those tools.

[TommyGunn]

No, if we had attacked a country that attacked us, we would have attacked Saudi Arabia - or at least have attacked Afghanistan on September 12.  We put a token force in Afghanistan while we attacked a country that didn't attack us. 

BS.
The thugs that attacked us were Al Qaeda and that was operating in A'Stan and being harbored by the Taliban.
Unless you can show they were operating as agents of, or soldiers in the army of Saudia Arabia their nationality is not a factor.  This is a specious,wrong, and dangerous idea that has floated around.
If a gang of German citizens in New York robbed a bank, and shot all the tellers and guards in the process, would you claim Germany had some responsibility in it?  If you were responsible you wouldn't without some damn good evidence of the German government being complicit.

[De Selby]

BS.
The thugs that attacked us were Al Qaeda and that was operating in A'Stan and being harbored by the Taliban.
Unless you can show they were operating as agents of, or soldiers in the army of Saudia Arabia their nationality is not a factor.  This is a specious,wrong, and dangerous idea that has floated around.
If a gang of German citizens in New York robbed a bank, and shot all the tellers and guards in the process, would you claim Germany had some responsibility in it?  If you were responsible you wouldn't without some damn good evidence of the German government being complicit.

Where is the evidence of Taliban complicity in the September 11 attacks?

[MicroBalrog]

Where is the evidence of Taliban complicity in the September 11 attacks?

Where is the evidence of Libya's complicity in the terrorist attacks on US troops?

Are we absolutely certain[ that it was Chechen terrorists that attacked Beslan?

[Jamisjockey]

Where is the evidence of Taliban complicity in the September 11 attacks?

Just like a lawyer.  Harbor and complicit are not the same.

[De Selby]

Just like a lawyer.  Harbor and complicit are not the same.

Exactly - their mistake was in thinking they could earn a reward for turning him over.  All the evidence we have on the Taliban is that, of those who even know new York exists, none of them cared about it.   Bin Laden was there paying them to hang out; they would likely have given him up for a sufficient cash payment, although all we know was ever requested was international recognition of their government.

When you consider that essentially zero operational planning went on in Afghanistan, it's even more odd to link them to the attack.

[Jamisjockey]

Cite? You're making assertions on where the planning for the sept 11th attacks went down and I'd like to see something backing it up.

[De Selby]

Cite? You're making assertions on where the planning for the sept 11th attacks went down and I'd like to see something backing it up.

Sure http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Ch5.htm

[Jamisjockey]

LOL sure looks like a large portion of it involves Afghanistan to me.  Simply considering the elite training camps were housed in Afghanistan is enough. Without that training, pray tell me how in the *expletive deleted*ck they would have pulled the attacks off? But I'm sure you've got some around about justifications as to why deposing the "government" of the country that provided the bulkwork of AQ's training program wasn't a good idea.

[kgbsquirrel]

LOL sure looks like a large portion of it involves Afghanistan to me.  Simply considering the elite training camps were housed in Afghanistan is enough. Without that training, pray tell me how in the *expletive deleted* they would have pulled the attacks off? But I'm sure you've got some around about justifications as to why deposing the "government" of the country that provided the bulkwork of AQ's training program wasn't a good idea.

You know, I've thought about this a goodly bit, especially while actually there, and then over the last 5 years since. There is something I saw once that will haunt me for the rest of my life. Video of Taliban government officers dragging women into the middle of a soccer field and shooting them in the head for having the temerity to learn to read. Even if we assume that the Taliban were totally blameless for 9/11, and did not host training camps, or harbor anyone responsible for those attacks, I still can not in good conscience say that killing their leaders and (trying) to throw them out of Afghanistan was wrong. Theirs is a plainly evil institution and none of the tenets of civilization that I adhere to, such as national sovereignty, can reconcile that.

[TommyGunn]

Where is the evidence of Taliban complicity in the September 11 attacks?

Gheeeesh.  Just stop it, DeSelby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jamisjockey]

I don't care about the thread drift.  I care about a bunch of Afghans attacking our soldiers and getting away with it.

Don't hold your breath for this war to be persecuted in a fashion with winning it being the goal.  Hasn't been the case since its inception.

[Balog]

You know, I've thought about this a goodly bit, especially while actually there, and then over the last 5 years since. There is something I saw once that will haunt me for the rest of my life. Video of Taliban government officers dragging women into the middle of a soccer field and shooting them in the head for having the temerity to learn to read. Even if we assume that the Taliban were totally blameless for 9/11, and did not host training camps, or harbor anyone responsible for those attacks, I still can not in good conscience say that killing their leaders and (trying) to throw them out of Afghanistan was wrong. Theirs is a plainly evil institution and none of the tenets of civilization that I adhere to, such as national sovereignty, can reconcile that.

Lotta places on this earth fit that description. Which doesn't change the moral point (I am an imperialist after all) but does perhaps beg the question of if it justifies the outlay of treasure and life we've expended on it.

[Jamisjockey]

Lotta places on this earth fit that description. Which doesn't change the moral point (I am an imperialist after all) but does perhaps beg the question of if it justifies the outlay of treasure and life we've expended on it.

This.  Let them rise up and overthrow their own oppressors.  If we really feel like getting involved, crates of surplus weapons and ammo can be airdropped cheap.