Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe

[Ben]

There might be more to it, but on the face... holy crap! This is 06JAN related, naturally, but Liberty Safes supposedly gave what I assume to be some "default" manufacturer's code to a customer's safe (it's not clear where the customer bought it) to the FBI for an 06JAN search warrant. And look at all the feeber vehicles driving to serve the warrant:

https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/09/06/gun-safe-manufacturer-n2386897

This must be an electronic safe. Again, there may be more to it, but I will absolutely be researching my next gun safe purchase very carefully. I like the comment about Liberty now being the Bud Light of the gun world.

Oh, and they've apparently been doing this for search warrants all along.

[Angel Eyes]

Saw that yesterday.

https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699245595867971969

The replies to Liberty's statement are lit.  To describe their customers as pissed is an understatement.

Unfortunately, I suspect that all the major safe makers have passcodes for their electronic locks.

[RoadKingLarry]

Good old fashioned S&G for the win!

[cordex]

On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?

Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.

[Angel Eyes]

On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?

Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.

The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.

[Ben]

On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?

Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.

Does the FBI destroy iPhones trying to get into them when Apple refuses to give them an in? I actually don't know, and am wondering how the two compare, one being destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for electronic information, and the other destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for physical contents.

Also, my only electronic (biometric) safe is a cheap ass one, with my real safes being S&G combos. I suspect the key that comes with my cheap biometric safe for when the batteries die is not nearly as complex as the key to a good electronic safe, but how easy is it for a locksmith to make a key for the key bypass on an electronic safe?

[WLJ]

Saw that yesterday.

https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699245595867971969

The replies to Liberty's statement are lit.  To describe their customers as pissed is an understatement.

Unfortunately, I suspect that all the major safe makers have passcodes for their electronic locks.

Far as I'm aware of all elec safes have default factory codes in case you forget whatever code you set.. You can usually find it in the manual or even call the manufacturer and give them the S/N of the safe. Many safes even have a reset button accessible when the door is open to clear whatever code the owner may have entered.

[BobR]

The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.

This.

Have you ever talked to Liberty to try to get a "default" safe combo? They essentially tell you to pound sand and get a locksmith yet they roll over and show their belly for a warrant? At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?

bob

[WLJ]

The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.

I would be willing to bet it was including with the papers that came with the safe. You're suppose to keep it in a safe place in case you forget yours. I know where mine is.

[Ben]

At the very least make them get a court order.
bob

Very good point.

I guess we're back to hiding our really important stuff in holes in the ground...

[Ben]

I would be willing to bet it was including with the papers that came with the safe. You're suppose to keep it in a safe place in case you forget yours

Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.

[WLJ]

Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.

I know for a fact Sentry have factory set codes that are not just 123456 and it is hard coded in the safes electronics as an override in case you forget yours. Even replacing the keypad won't change it since the code is stored on a chip inside the door. My safe's override code was printed on a card that came with the safe and your suppose to keep it in a safe place for just in case. I would expect Liberty to do the same, it would make sense.

[cordex]

The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.

Is it really?  I took the outrage to be primarily focused on giving up the code to the feds so enthusiastically.

Does the FBI destroy iPhones trying to get into them when Apple refuses to give them an in? I actually don't know, and am wondering how the two compare, one being destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for electronic information, and the other destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for physical contents.

If destroying a phone worked to extract data then I'm sure they would be happy to use that route, but I'm pretty sure that both GrayKey and Cellebrite are non-destructive.  Since no damage is needed, why bother?

Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.

Liberty doesn't build their own locks, they use S&G and SecuRam locks in their safes.  If any permanent factory-set codes exist, I bet they exist in other manufacturers who use the same kinds of locks.

I know for a fact Sentry have factory set codes that are not just 123456 and it is hard coded in the safes electronics as an override in case you forget yours. Even replacing the keypad won't change it since the codes is stored on a chip inside the door.

Same thing with my truck's entry code.  You can set a custom one, but there is a factory set one that can't be changed.  I bet Ford has a record of that too.

[WLJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k

[MechAg94]

When I first saw this, I thought the FBI had a warrant that included getting that info from Liberty, but I am hearing the warrant did not include them and they did not have hand it over (at that point at least).

[AZRedhawk44]

On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?

Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.

What value is a safe with a compromised code, to someone who has been subject to a warrant by the feds?

Put yourself in the shoes of the safe owner.

Make the feds earn whatever's in the safe.  Do you really want a safe after the FBI has the code to it?

And what the hell use is anything firearm related to the feds for anyone being indicted for Jan06 stuff, if they aren't among the handful actually being charged with staging militias around DC?  The feds are deliberately being pricks if they're getting into safes and it was for Wilbur and Gladys just strolling through the Capitol Rotunda.

[WLJ]

Not a secret and I would bet this info was included with the documentation that came with the safe.
From Liberty's website https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/combination-key-request


Combination/Key Request Form

Use our form to request your Liberty Safe combination or key replacement for your home or gun safe.

A credit card or check is required, and the form must be notarized to be approved.

Please provide all of the information requested or the combination will not be re-issued. In addition to the information below, please provide the following required documents:

    A receipt showing the original purchase if the warranty card was not sent in.

If you are unable to provide the original receipt, you can do one of the following:

    Contact your local law enforcement and ask them to verify that the safe is in your possession and that it hasn’t been reported stolen. Have them give you a written statement on their letterhead stating those two things, and fax the statement to us in place of your original purchase receipt.
    Contact a licensed and bonded locksmith in your area to come to the safe location and do the same verification. Have the locksmith contact Liberty Safe’s Customer Service Department while on site for further instructions.

If you would like an additional copy of the combination faxed or emailed please include that information below, and check the appropriate box to the left of it. Please allow 3 – 5 business days for processing all requests. If you require your combination immediately, please contact a certified locksmith and ask them to contact us.

[Angel Eyes]

Is it really?  I took the outrage to be primarily focused on giving up the code to the feds so enthusiastically.

From what I've been reading on Twitter X, yes, customers are quite unhappy about the existence of the passcodes, although there is also ire directed at Liberty for rolling over so readily.

There are other concerns as well, such as how secure the passcodes are: are they in suitably encrypted files/filesystems with restricted access, or just sitting in an Excel spreadsheet?

[WLJ]

From the the support/manual page on Liberty's website so if Liberty safe owners are outraged it's right there in the manual. Yeah I know, who reads the manual?
Wonder if the Feds paid the $25?

https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/owners-manual

[Angel Eyes]

From the the support/manual page on Liberty's website so if Liberty safe owners are outraged it's right there in the manual. Yeah I know, who reads the manual?

My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.

[WLJ]

My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.

There should be a temporary default out of the box combo but that should be overridden when you input your code. Meanwhile a passcode remains encoded in a chip for just in case you're an idiot and forget what you set yours to and the safe should have come with a card with it printed on it, mine did.

[Ben]

My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.

Mine as well. Also different from Cordex's example. I also have the F150 door combo that is the one I programmed that I can remember, but also the code that came with it that can't be reset by me, but I know what that code is - it's on cards that came with the manual, etc.

My understanding of the Liberty thing is that there is yet another code, that is not a default safe code and not one provided to the owner. So using Ford as an example:

The truck came with code 000000 which I am aware of, but cannot change.
I additionally enter my own easy to remember code of 123456.
There is yet another code Ford has, XXXXXX, that only they know and will not provide me, but will provide service techs and apparently the FBI or other LE.

[WLJ]

My understanding of the Liberty thing is that there is yet another code, that is not a default safe code and not one provided to the owner. So using Ford as an example:

A third code?

[Ben]

A third code?

Or a second code, depending on how they ship their safes out.

[T.O.M.]

Back in my prosecutor days, I worked a couple of cases where we got search warrants for safes.  Let's just say that there were materials inside involving the defendant and young boys.   

Anyways, we called the safe company, explained the situation.  Faxed a copy of the warrants, and were given directions for how to open the safes (factory preset codes).  Yes, we were legally able to force the safes open, but doing so likely would have damaged the Polaroids and video cassettes inside, perhaps making it unusable as evidence.