Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe

[MechAg94]

Question:  Would anyone have known about this had Liberty not bragged about it on their social media?  Was it brought up elsewhere first?


I saw a post earlier that Liberty Safe was sold to an investment group in 2021 which has mostly contributed money to Democrats.  The current CEO also is a Democrat contributor.  Just food for thought. 

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1699612950196330924

Charlie Kirk
@charliekirk11
Liberty Safe was sold to Monomoy Capital Partners in 2021, a liberal East Coast investment firm. I pulled the FEC reports on the company and found approximately $400,000 over the last 10 cycles of max donations to Democrats like:

Raphael Warnock in GA
John Fetterman in PA
Mandela Barnes in WI
Mark Kelly in AZ

Liberty Safe’s current CEO, Justin Hillenbrand, was a founding partner of Monomoy and donated $4,600 to Obama for America.

And we're supposed to be surprised they betrayed their customers to the FBI as quickly as humanly possible?

Boycott Liberty Safe.

[Ben]

Question:  Would anyone have known about this had Liberty not bragged about it on their social media?  Was it brought up elsewhere first?

Good question, given comments here that this has probably been done by Liberty and other companies many times before. If Liberty initiated the public release versus some watchdog, then I can't help but think, after rereading their statement and now seeing the CEOs political connections, that he ordered the social media statement because "06JAN INSURRECTION!!!" and really thought he was being "patriotic".

[AZRedhawk44]

"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"

A warrant IS a court order.

That's why they're signed by a judge.

No.  Just NO.

A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.

It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.

It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.

It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.

A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.

[AZRedhawk44]

If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in.  Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.

Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.

I understand they're GOING to get into it.

But perhaps the owner has a deliberate intent for storing something in the safe, in a way that destruction is ensured if the safe is physically compromised.  Blackmail leverage, crypto recovery passwords, whatever.

If Liberty has a court order to facilitate the feds getting into the safe, that's one thing.  But if they have a standing POLICY to assist them, that's some bullshit.  It's a safe that has a guaranteed fedboi backdoor in it.

[cordex]

But perhaps the owner has a deliberate intent for storing something in the safe, in a way that destruction is ensured if the safe is physically compromised.  Blackmail leverage, crypto recovery passwords, whatever.

Someone requiring that level of protection should probably not be using any commercially available safe.  Since they are already living in a cheap paperback novel, they should have their author write in the skills to design and fabricate their own locks and stuff, or maybe a trusted locksmith that can predictably betray them or something.

If Liberty has a court order to facilitate the feds getting into the safe, that's one thing.  But if they have a standing POLICY to assist them, that's some bullshit.  It's a safe that has a guaranteed fedboi backdoor in it.

I agree in spirit, but again, Liberty's policy and actions did not in any way change the outcome except reducing physical damage to the safe.  I'm not saying they are worthy of any praise, but they had no ability to change the outcome.

I'd note that any commercial lock manufacturer also provides instructions to licensed parties to bypass their locks - usually through drilling - in a way that does not (outside the fictional scenario you presented earlier) damage the goods inside the safe.

[WLJ]

Here's Brandon Herrera

LIBERTY SAFE SOLD YOU OUT TO THE FEDS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMhQeXBzJ3Q

[WLJ]

[HeroHog]

MORE bad news about the company

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz5uNkNBTDY

[HeroHog]

More info from another source with better info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtDPYpsG1A

[T.O.M.]

No.  Just NO.

A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.

It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.

It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.

It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.

A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.

A search warrant is a court order.  It is an order that authorizes law enforcement to conduct a search during a limited period of time without the consent of the owner/occupier/possessor of a place or thing.  It further orders law enforcement to leave a receipt for any/all items taken, and to return a sworn accounting for what was taken to the court that issued the warrant in the first place.

[Regolith]

Runkle of the Bailey, a Canadian firearms lawyer, put out a pretty good video about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCwrX2gcXM

He made two good points that stuck out to me. The first is that the police having access to these codes allows them to go on warantless fishing expeditions and then lie and say you gave them the code and permission to search the safe, and since the safe would be intact it would be much harder for you to dispute there claim. Without the code, they'd have to hack the safe open somehow, and the destruction would be prima facie evidence that you did NOT give consent.

The second is an issue in places like Canada with safe storage laws. Lets say your code is leaked, and criminals use it to open your safe and steal your firearms. Then you have to explain to the police, who may not know about the code leak, how your guns were stolen if they were locked up like they were legally required to be by law, and your safe isn't destroyed.

[Ben]

You know, one of the things we shouldn't forget here, beyond the safe issue, is EIGHT *expletive deleted*ing CARLOADS OF FEDS rolling in to serve this warrant two years after the fact, shoving around his girlfriend, who had just come home from a miscarriage, and forcing him to turn off all his security cameras and his internet.

Because cops who are doing things above board always want to make sure that they can't be recorded and that said recordings can't get to someplace where they can't be confiscated. 

[JTHunter]

What I have isn't a "gun safe" but an old, 3000 lb. steel & concrete laminate with a mechanical dial.  The company that refurbished this unit set the 3 numbers to my requests but I don't know if they kept a copy of those numbers.  There is no name or serial number on this safe AFAIK nor any info about the company from whom we bought this safe.
While the hinges are on the outside, there are studs on all four sides of the door that, when the handwheel is turned to close the safe, engage into the walls.  Cutting off the hinges won't get them into the safe.
As mine isn't a gun safe, I store most of my older paperwork in it.  This includes tax returns, certain utility bills, property tax records, other financial info, auto repair/maintenance records, etc.

[AZRedhawk44]

A search warrant is a court order.  It is an order that authorizes law enforcement to conduct a search during a limited period of time without the consent of the owner/occupier/possessor of a place or thing.  It further orders law enforcement to leave a receipt for any/all items taken, and to return a sworn accounting for what was taken to the court that issued the warrant in the first place.

I agree that it is a court order, but the issue is in regards to whom it orders.

Reading samples of various warrants online for context, I see affirmation under oath of a particular type of law enforcement officer of various types of suspicious activity, and an intention to delve for corroborating named evidence to support suspicion of a crime in progress or committed.

The warrant serves as EXCULPATION of the officer's search and seizure actions which would normally be criminal in day to day happenings.  The warrant is a restraint on government from criminalizing the actions of the officer who asked for the warrant.

Nothing in any example or real warrants I've found online orders the home owner to offer keys, or codes, or passwords.

Nothing in the warrant orders manufacturers of consumer security products to facilitate entry into any safes/computers/RSC's/etc.

I'm aware I'm arguing with a judge over this issue, and I relish being corrected, and hearing the legal principles which would allow such a broad extension of the power of such a mundane thing as a single search warrant for a common residence.

[WLJ]

I case you don't remember ESG (Environmental, social, and governance) is basically a company's woke score

https://twitter.com/MatrixPers51519/status/1699884200688865761

[HeroHog]

I have a small Sentry Safe I keep things in. Thing must weigh 70 lbs and is only 1'^3 ! Combo lock and 4 bladed key, both required to open. Odd combination too.

PS: They CAN send me a key/combination on written request with proof of ownership & Serial number. Dunno if I have an option to delete that info.

[Hawkmoon]

No.  Just NO.

A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.

It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.

It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.

It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.

A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.

^^^ Quoted for truth.

[K Frame]

No.  Just NO.

A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.

It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.

It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.

It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.

A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.

Jesus, really?

YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.

Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.

HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.

Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.

Maybe the defense will hire you as an expert NO NO NO screamer. I'd ask them. 

[MechAg94]

Jesus, really?

YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.

Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.

HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.

Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.

Maybe the defense will hire you as an expert NO NO NO screamer. I'd ask them. 

How does what you said disagree with what he said? 

[cordex]

YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.

Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.

HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.

AZRedhawk44 isn't saying a warrant isn't a court order, he is asserting that the warrant did not apply to Liberty.  As far as I know, none of us have seen the warrant, but I think it is extremely likely that he is correct.  As far as I know, warrants for physical spaces are not typically written assuming the need to compel safe manufacturers to cooperate.

If police are serving a warrant on your nice Mormon neighbors, absent the court specifically ordering you, nothing about that court order forces you to tell the coppers where the fake rock with the key is hidden - even if they ask you about it.  The warrant applies to the place they are searching, not to what the neighbors of that space know.  Yes, the warrant is a court order, but not one that applies in any respect to you or stuff you know.  A judge could write a warrant trying to compel you to tell where the hidden key is, or for Liberty to disclose the access code, but I have yet to see any indication that the judge who issued the warrant in this case did so.  Liberty certainly didn't claim that, and indeed indicated that such an order was not needed for them to cooperate.

Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.

No.  In this case none of that matters at all, and no lawyers or courts are going to care about any of it.  If Liberty had been presented with a court order that forced them to reveal it, I don't think they'd be getting anything like the blowback that they are receiving.  AZRedhawk44's point was that Liberty didn't wait to be ordered to do anything.  Their stated policy instructed them to provide the code without being ordered to do so by a court.  That is the issue at hand.  The police asked and Liberty gave it up as they are legally allowed to do.  The issue is not one of the police exceeding the scope of the warrant.  They can ask for information without a warrant and do so all the time.  The issue is Liberty doing something they didn't have to do.

I maintain that their choice didn't change the outcome in any significant respect, but you seem to be missing the fundamental point.

[K Frame]

"How does what you said disagree with what he said?  "

How does he, in any way, think that his screed addresses what I said?

I said very simply that a search warrant IS a court order. That's a simple fact, confirmed by a sitting magistrate.

I didn't comment on the content of the search warrant, I didn't comment on the validity of the search or its supporting information, I didn't comment on the activities of the police OR Liberty.

Yet that simple statement -- A search warrant IS a court order -- was apparently somehow evidence that I'm a pro-deep state super fascist police lover with over-reach on my mind?

Beats the *expletive deleted*ck out of me.

[K Frame]

"Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.

No.  In this case none of that matters at all, and no lawyers or courts are going to care about any of it.  If Liberty had been presented with a court order that forced them to reveal it, I don't think they'd be getting anything like the blowback that they are receiving.  AZRedhawk44's point was that Liberty didn't wait to be ordered to do anything.  Their stated policy instructed them to provide the code without being ordered to do so by a court.  That is the issue at hand.  The police asked and Liberty gave it up as they are legally allowed to do.  The issue is not one of the police exceeding the scope of the warrant.  They can ask for information without a warrant and do so all the time.  The issue is Liberty doing something they didn't have to do.

I maintain that their choice didn't change the outcome in any significant respect, but you seem to be missing the fundamental point."


I see TWO fundamental points. Apparently most of you don't.

Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?

As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.

Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers

Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers. That's potentially a tort issue if someone/group of someones wants to take it that far.

Once again, though, I was only addressing the fact that a warrant is a court order.

That said, you'll need to excuse me, because I'm going to be late for my pro-deep state super fascist police lover meeting. 

[dogmush]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERGHcLgmCN8

How to reset the SecuRAM locks used by liberty safes, this will clear out both your user code, and the manager code that Liberty had, and claims they will remove from their database if you ask.

It's worth noting that while the Courts have held that warrant or no, you cannot be compelled to give them the combination to the safe, that's a 5th amendment protection, and third party individuals CAN be compelled to give up information like combinations (or the location of the hide-a-jey in a previous post) by court order.  So if Liberty still has your combo, or can regenerate it with your serial number and whatever algorithm they used in the first place, they can be compelled to give it to law enforcement.

If you factory reset the lock and set the manager code to 08-21-92, and don't tell anyone, then LE will have to cut open the safe if they want in.  It's your call how much trouble you want to give the cops.

[cordex]

Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?

As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.

Again, no.  Your "fundamental point one" is utterly irrelevant in the context of this case.  Given the information we have there is no indication whatsoever that there ever was any overreach regarding asking Liberty for the combination for lawyers or courts to argue about.

According to Liberty, the feds requested (not demanded) the information from Liberty and per its own policies Liberty happily complied without being compelled by any court to do so.  And yes, asking is an entirely different thing from demanding.  Law enforcement can politely ask to search your car, home, and rectum without a warrant and for no reason at all.  If you consent, they're golden.  Liberty consented to a mere request.

Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers

Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue

If Liberty had waited until there was a warrant which actually applied to them then their customers would likely have interpreted it very differently than when they gave it up based on nothing more than a "pretty please".  Some might have still been upset, but the lack of any applicable court order to Liberty completely changes the situation.

other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers.

You are trying to dismiss the exact subject that was being discussed when you jumped in.

Once again, though, I was only addressing the fact that a warrant is a court order.

When Bob said to wait for a court order, he wasn't saying a warrant is not a court order, he was saying it wasn't a court order that applies to Liberty.  Your statement was irrelevant in context.

... and third party individuals CAN be compelled to give up information like combinations (or the location of the hide-a-jey in a previous post) by court order.

But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order.  That would typically be a separate order.  Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them.  Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.

[dogmush]

But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order.  That would typically be a separate order.  Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them.  Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.

Absolutely.


In a separate semi nerdy point, I kind of wonder now about Liberty's whole "We'll delete your manager code" thing.  SecuRAM (the maker of the digital lockset) ships them all wth a default 1-1-1-1-1-1 Manager code.  Liberty installs the locks and keypads in their safes, then sets the manager code and the inital user code.  Then they store the manager code tied to your safe's serial number in case you lose your code or the Revenuers need to poke around inside.  The question is:  How does Liberty generate that initial manager code?  They were talking about this on Timcast IRL a couple days ago, and the theory is they have some sort of proprietary encryption algorithm that they punch the new safe's serial number into, and it spits out a six digit code or two, which the assembler then programs into the safe.  If that's the case, then deleting your code from their server won't protect you from the feds (or a data breech) because they could be compelled to rerun the algorithm and regenerate the manager code of your safe's lockset.

For that matter, Feds aside, it's recently become glaringly public that Liberty has, or can make, the manager codes for all their electronically locked safes.  How good do you think Liberty's infosec is?  Is that system air-gapped from the internet?  What are Liberty's access protocols to that system, and are there any employees that could be bribed, and how much do you think a bunch of gun safe entry codes are worth to data brokers?  Kinda by definition, whoever is installing the lockset's in the safes needs to have access to the manager code generation protocol.  Is that access audited, or even auditable? Or can an assembly line worker run any serial number they have through the code generation protocol and pull existing manager codes?

My Liberty safe, I think I mentioned, has an S&G dial, and I have a reset key, so I think I'll be changing that combo out this weekend, just in case.