Author Topic: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe  (Read 7948 times)

WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2023, 11:01:09 AM »
Unless I'm missing something basically someone(s) at Liberty screwed up and Liberty has admitted as much and has taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Right? I mean this isn't like Bud Light where the company kept doubling down.
So assuming we can overlook their lib owners and they don't do it again how long are we going to rake them over the coals for this?

Now of course this is assuming they haven't been doing it all along and this only the first time we've heard about. Wonder how many other safe manufacturers are or have done this?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2023, 11:10:48 AM »

I see TWO fundamental points. Apparently most of you don't.

Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?

As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.

Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers

Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers. That's potentially a tort issue if someone/group of someones wants to take it that far.



Warrants do not give police rights.

Warrants excuse transgressions.

The first place they do so is the actual search of the place in question, and the seizure of whatever evidence the police are looking for.  The second place they do so is the introduction of that evidence into a trial.  Evidence seized from a person's home absent a warranted search or exigent circumstances permitting the immediate entry and search is inadmissible at trial.

Warrants are also not a cart blanche for law enforcement to demand facilitation by every person under the sun.  They are (supposed to be at least) narrow in scope and generally describe an intent to search, not a declaration of a forfeiture of knowledge.  That becomes a Fifth Amendment issue that is still unresolved at the SCOTUS level but has been addressed in some Circuit Courts, as well as one State level case I came across at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.  So far the consensus seems to be that biometrics can be forfeited forcibly, but personal knowledge (encryption codes, safe codes, etc) is protected by the Fifth Amendment.  Also, personal knowledge (my own safe's code) is protected, but commercial/trade knowledge (Liberty's knowledge of safe master codes for all customers) is not protected if the courts issue a warrant at a commercial entity.

Did you brush the bootblack off your tongue from your meeting?   :P
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BobR

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2023, 11:37:38 AM »
But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order.  That would typically be a separate order.  Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them.  Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.

That is what I meant, I should have been more precise. Liberty should have required the Feds to  serve them with something compelling them to hand over the code. Just because they had a search warrant for an individual customer did not mean it applied to Liberty (maybe a name change is needed?). Liberty should have said, we will not provide the combo without a court order then they would be on much firmer ground with the outraged customers.

bob

HankB

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2023, 12:01:47 PM »
That is what I meant, I should have been more precise. Liberty should have required the Feds to  serve them with something compelling them to hand over the code. Just because they had a search warrant for an individual customer did not mean it applied to Liberty (maybe a name change is needed?). Liberty should have said, we will not provide the combo without a court order then they would be on much firmer ground with the outraged customers.

bob
There was a roughly analogous situation in the cop drama Blue Bloods several years ago. (IT'S A TV SHOW!! IT'S NOT REAL LIFE!! I KNOW THAT!!) Cops went into an investment company office and demanded records on a suspect. Boss Man asked for a warrant or court order. Cops didn't have one, but argued, and said they could get a warrant quick. Boss Man suggested they do so. They did, and within a couple of hours were back at the Boss Man's office. He checked the warrant, took a few step to the side and put his hand on a stack of cartons. "Here's everything we have on your suspect." Boss Man had it all ready for them. Which brings me to my point: he said if he'd simply handed things over, a lot of the company's OTHER clients would be upset - but they could hardly hold it against the company for complying with a valid court order, right?

So the principles BobR and others have already alluded to are well-known enough to be incorporated on TV shows. Too bad nobody at LIberty knew this - or if they did, they just didn't care.
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dogmush

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2023, 12:21:57 PM »
So the principles BobR and others have already alluded to are well-known enough to be incorporated on TV shows. Too bad nobody at LIberty knew this - or if they did, they just didn't care.

I really think Liberty just hadn't realized the shift in culture of 2A enthusiasts in the last 10-15 years.  They assumed "Cooperate with Law Enforcement" was still the default position of their customer base.  Liberty is stuck in the gun culture of the early 90's.  Go look at the pictures of full safes on thier website.  Wood stocked bolt guns, pump and O/U shotguns, some pistols thrown in half of which are revolvers.  We could probably get one of them to say "No honest Man needs more than 10 rounds in a magazine."

Ben

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2023, 12:27:29 PM »
I really think Liberty just hadn't realized the shift in culture of 2A enthusiasts in the last 10-15 years.  They assumed "Cooperate with Law Enforcement" was still the default position of their customer base.  Liberty is stuck in the gun culture of the early 90's.  Go look at the pictures of full safes on thier website.  Wood stocked bolt guns, pump and O/U shotguns, some pistols thrown in half of which are revolvers.  We could probably get one of them to say "No honest Man needs more than 10 rounds in a magazine."

I still insist this might have something to do with their CEO's and maybe their social media team's politics. Which connects to your post in that I think they believe they were going to be lauded for helping the feds get one of those insurrectionists off the streets and in jail for 20 years. Which, the guys who buy Liberty safes and fill them with Citoris and Weatherbys would probably agree with that. I don't think that demographic is a major part of their customer base anymore. Read the room, as they say.
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cordex

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2023, 01:05:32 PM »
[...] fill them with Citoris and Weatherbys [...]
I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?

Ben

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2023, 01:18:35 PM »
I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?

 :rofl:
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BobR

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2023, 07:52:31 PM »
I think the people who sell Liberty Safes may be sitting on them for quite a while, even if they try to get them out of the door at fire sale prices. I think it would be hard to find a gun forum where this event has not been discussed.

Quote
Campaign finance documents found an unsurprising connection between Liberty Safe’s parent company and the Democratic Party in an attempt to restrict American’s Second Amendment rights.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2023/09/08/liberty-safe-company-gave-nearly-half-a-million-dollars-to-gun-control-happy-democrats-n2628174

bob

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2023, 09:45:09 PM »
I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?

I saw the same thing on first glance and had to reread it  :rofl:
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WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2023, 07:21:37 PM »
Makes a connection between the politicians Liberty Safe's owners have been donating money to and the politicians pushing for mandatory safe laws and the removal of safes tariffs. Long story short many are the same politicians.

Now could be something to this but it could just a case of dem = dem

BOMBSHELL: Liberty Safe SCANDAL just went NUCLEAR... It just got SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V635MLNvhls
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2023, 09:41:33 PM »
Makes a connection between the politicians Liberty Safe's owners have been donating money to and the politicians pushing for mandatory safe laws and the removal of safes tariffs. Long story short many are the same politicians.

Now could be something to this but it could just a case of dem = dem

BOMBSHELL: Liberty Safe SCANDAL just went NUCLEAR... It just got SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V635MLNvhls

Seems really weird for conservative 2A activists to get their panties in a wad over the elimination of tariffs on domestically manufactured gun safes.

If anything, this is magnanimous of Biden.  He's frequently referred to as being a Chinese puppet.  He selectively left the tariffs on the cheapo imported ChiCom metal lockers, and rescinded them on the domestically produced high end safes.  Should be a win with the conservative crowd. 

I don't get the anger.

Edit to add:  I don't support mandatory "safe" storage.  Duh.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!