Author Topic: Strong ideas  (Read 4715 times)

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« on: February 17, 2006, 05:48:41 PM »
I look around me, and see that statistically, most U.S. families have 'no choice' but to resort to 2 full-time incomes in order to pay taxes, put Cream of Wheat in the kids' bellies, and have a few toys.  I am subversive enough to have decided "no way, no how" for me and mine.

One thing I also see is the expectation becoming more prevalent amongst many corporate power structures for employees to put in somewhere in the 50-60 hours range week in and week out.

I am offended by this.  I intend, as much as it is within my power, to wage peaceful protest on this development, but flatly refusing to do it, and by encouraging others to "Take Back Your Time".

What do you think about the growing backlash toward monopolizing people's lives in the name of corporate stakeholder profits?

Here are some links that address this issue:
www.timeday.org
http://www.newdream.org/index.php
http://www.wordspy.com/words/joy-to-stuffratio.asp
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/07/productivity_or.html

More fun, less stuff,
Fig

brimic

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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 07:10:10 PM »
Its almost getting to the point of being rediculous.
My wife and I each work 50+ hours a week. I at least get paid overtime.
We make a lot more money than we have use for, we don't have time to spend it, so we invest it.
Neither of us wants to give up our career, though I encourage her to do so often, I make enough to pay the mortgage and the bills, however, she's reluctant mainly because her health plan at work is far better than mine.

I take pride in the fact that even though I have about 200 hrs of overtime last year, I never volunteered to work any more days than I was scheduled for even though opportunities abound- 5 years ago I worked every single day from Jan2 through the end of June- 8 hr shifts during the weeks, and 12 hr shifts on weekends. The extra $400 or so I would make on an extra 12 hr shift doesn't mean anything to me.

We sat down and figured that at the rate we are saving and with a conservative investment return we will both be able to soundly retire at age 60 if not sooner- its only 25 years away, we'll have our house paid off in 13 years from now. We make a lot of sacrifices in the here and now but we have a longterm outlook on things.

As far as stakeholder profits go, I work for a small company- less that 100 employees- I was the 15th employee hired 7 years ago, I have a direct stake in the company's success. My wife works for a large corporation and is paid her 'stake' in a large yearly bonus check based on the company's performance.

I love my job, my wife hates hers.

My wife rolls her eyes whenever we see a commercial for the latest electronic gadget be it a cellphone, laptop, or PDA with the message that the 'world is your office.' My wife has all of that cutting edge crap issued to her from her company, its like a deal with the devil- she can use it for whatever she wants and the company picks up the tab for the services but if her company needs to contact her at 3:47 AM on sunday because they need to expedite a machine tool along with a service technician to be flown in from Switzerland ASAP, she has no choice but to spend the next 4 hours on the phone calling around the world trying to get it done.

I'd like to give it all up, sell the house, move somewhere nice and do something very untressful on my own time- maybe a fishing guide, while my wife stays home to raise the kids.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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Barack Obama

RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 07:38:43 PM »
Quote
More fun, less stuff.
Can I steal that?

280plus

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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2006, 08:06:10 PM »
All I know is I got tired of being a pawn in someone elses game. Which is what I think you are describing. I went to work for the ONE person I KNOW is going to have my best interests at heart, ME! Maybe I sacrificed a better income for it but the stress level is much lower. When I come across one of these A types that think I'm there to answer their every beck and call, I overbid the job so I don't have to deal with them, unless they're willing to PAY me to put up with their crap. I love that about my job. I set my own hours too. There are downsides to it but just not having to deal with a pissy office girl all the time is reward in itself.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 05:27:39 AM »
Quote from: dasmi
Quote
More fun, less stuff.
Can I steal that?
It's all yours, D.

FWIW, I actually saw it at one of the sites I linked in the first post.  It really sums up much of what I'm after at this point in the game.

At the "Take Back Your Time" website, there's a variation that says "More Time, Less Stuff", but quality free time IMO translates to fun, so I like it better with 'fun' as the contrasting concept.

I also want to say that I feel really funny (odd, not humorous) about espousing an idea that seems like something a worker's union might come up with...

Bourgeousie, rise up against the proletariat! ...or something. Uh, yeah. rolleyes

280plus

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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 05:42:38 AM »
Heh, The name of my compnay is "Marx Diversified Interests" only because I thought it would be clever to spell it Marx instead of Mark's. Every once in a while someone will ask me, "Are you a Communist?" Then there's the other 99% for whom I have to spell it usually about 3 times before they get it. Of course it DOES stick in their heads after that. Then there's a few that think my name is Marx and not Mark.

Anyhoo, I see it more as putting myself on the same level as the "proletariat' as opposed to rising against them. Why would I want to rise against them? They have money. I deal directly with CEOs and the like all the time. Some are cool, the rest I won't work for. A good HVAC mechanic can be like that. Smiley
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Art Eatman

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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 06:18:08 AM »
There is a much lower percentage of self-employed, now, compared to the early years of the U.S.  Seems like "The System" is geared toward hired-hands, whether salaried or hourly.

People holler about the federal income tax as though that's a big deal, but it's FICA + state and local taxes that eat your lunch.  

Factor in having been raised on TV advertising that tells you that you "deserve" a "Good Life" and there went the money.  

The Asians here in the US seem to have the best set of ideas:  Family business, everybody works together, and thinks in terms of the next generation.  Accumulate wealth over time and plan for old age.

Funny.  I never worked much over 40 hours a week on salary, but I probably spent another 20 to 30 hours a week working for ME.  "Hustle".  Find an old car, cheap.  Fix it up.  Drive it a while.  Sell it for some profit and buy some guns or collector coins.  Buy, sell, swap, trade.  Penny-ante investing.  Do all my own home repairs and fixings.  I did this sort of crap for a bunch of years, and now I can write a check in six figures.

Never forget that nobody was ever born an expert anything.  Not even me.

And I sure didn't do without beer and deer and trash-talking with purty gals and I did take Ol' Mama dancin' and we ate a fair amount of prime steak.  Raced sporty cars, went fishin', flew airplanes.  Hey, I got no complaints whatsoever.

But I never let "The System" define my reality.  I let the real world give me a hand with that.

Art

"Wish in one hand, poop in the other.  See which fills up first."
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

garrettwc

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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 06:49:08 AM »
Fig, I will gladly join your revolution. I see what you are describing in my company more and more. The strangest thing is that my company was listed in that annual "Best companies to work for" magazine. I thought it was funny, because the people that got interviewed and ultimately were part of the ratings were the folks at corporate HQ with the gravy jobs and all the "special perks". None of the things in the article were available at the time to people in our district office. Feh!

Looking at all I have given them and the "death by 1000 cuts" approach they have taken I adopted your sig line as my mantra several months ago.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2006, 06:50:31 AM »
Since we're talking about corporate issues...
www.bullshitjob.com
Enjoy the Bullshit Title Generator Smiley

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2006, 07:09:35 AM »
Good onya, garrettwc!

That's a little bizarre, since on Monday I'm interviewing with a company who was one of the top 50 Forbes' "best companies to work for", and has been on the list every time since '88 or whenever it started... I sensed the whole "work till you can't" mentality on the part of the hiring manager on the phone interview, so who knows...

I'm also dealing with some health issues that's going to make it hard to be the corporate warrior 12 hours a day, so life just keeps getting more and more...uh...'interesting'!

mtnbkr

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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2006, 07:41:33 AM »
I've been going down that path for years.  I refuse to work long hours just so I can say I work long hours.  Unless it's time critical, I don't stay late for it.  Luckily, my current company isn't one of those who views the extended workday as required and when I've worked odd hours in support of a project, I've been rewarded for it.

My wife is a stay at home mom.  We don't have the disposable income of two income families, but we do just fine.  We just do without things like new(er) cars, cable TV, etc.  We still take vacations and do things together though.  We also have more free time than our two income friends.

Chris

garrettwc

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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2006, 07:44:10 AM »
I used to be a workaholic so your situation would have seemed normal to me Fig. My company is doing it a little differently. It was a flat year sales wise and our market is expected to be that way for the next 18-24 months. The company is in a good equity position so no danger, but the cost cutting nazis are out in force.

We are on a zero overtime policy. I actually got called on the carpet by my supervisor for working 15 minutes over on a project her boss told me to finish ASAP. The work load has stayed the same, or increased in some areas, but we now have less time to complete the work in, and no new hires temp or otherwise for the next 120 days.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2006, 07:45:11 AM »
mtnbkr, you're better off without cable tv.  I haven't watched tv since I moved in October, and I don't miss it a bit.

Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2006, 07:53:13 AM »
Having hit the silver ceiling, and having been forced to be on the road four days out of seven (and subjected to TSA goons twice a week) for the past year just to keep my present job, I second that emotion.

- NF
Give up no state. Give up no ground.

http://www.njcsd.org

Balog

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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2006, 08:16:22 AM »
This thread reminds me of what was absolutely, without a doubt the worst time in my entire life.

When I got married, both myself and my wife had steady 40 hour a week jobs. She was a service biller at a car dealership, I was a housepainter. We rented an apartment to move into after the honeymoon; not big or fancy, but not a bug infested wank hole like she had been living in. Given our income and modest budget, we woulda been saving ~25% of our net income. Her position was automated and she was laid off 3 days before the wedding ('cause a wedding isn't enough stress by itself.) Ok, we still had a few grand saved, and my income would keep us afloat for awhile. Except the owner of the company I worked for decided she was only going to bid on enough work to support herself. Sure wish she'd told me. Having been taught that loyalty is one of the highest virtues, I stayed with it for a lot longer than I should've. Long story short, bye bye savings, hello series of menial jobs. I hated it. Here I'd sworn before God and those assembled to care for her, and I'm failing miserably. I was hating life, a lot.

Since then I've dedicated myself to the idea of being independent of the whims of others for my daily bread. Since enlisting, I've only grown more and more convinced that not being beholden to anyone but myself is the only way to go. The only question is how? I may have to start a separate thread. I look at the coupla years I've got left in the Corps as a chance to plan for the future and get trained and ready.
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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2006, 08:31:43 AM »
Tough one, Balog. But, OTOH, you can use your time in the Corps to your advantage and your VA benefits afterward. Learn some skills that will help you when you get out. It really depends on what you like to do and what you're good at.

If you know what you'd like to learn, try to position yourself in a place where you can.

If you don't know, keep trying things until you find out.

Simple stuff, but I don't know a better way. No one can decide for you.

- NF
Give up no state. Give up no ground.

http://www.njcsd.org

280plus

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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 09:40:57 AM »
Balog, I don't know how it is now but when I got out you could use your benefits to go to college OR to supplement your income while you apprenticed to a trade. The number of people that NEVER do anything with their money astounds me. Don't be one of them. Use your benefits! You sure as hell earned them!
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2006, 10:00:02 AM »
Quote from: Balog
Since then I've dedicated myself to the idea of being independent of the whims of others for my daily bread. Since enlisting, I've only grown more and more convinced that not being beholden to anyone but myself is the only way to go. The only question is how? I may have to start a separate thread. I look at the coupla years I've got left in the Corps as a chance to plan for the future and get trained and ready.
Do it, dude.  NOW.  We can all benefit from the collective experience, knowledge & wisdom.  START THE THREAD

Fig

Balog

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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 10:03:26 AM »
NF and 280plus: thanks. I've considered a lot of things. Pharmacy (long school which VA and GI bill wouldn't entirely cover), machinist (but with the increas in CAD etc would it be in demand?), contract security (good pay but long dangerous time overseas) etc etc. And I'd still be relying on someone else.

Of course I can also get a low interest small business loan and start my own place up. But from what I've heard that can be more stressful than working for others. Tough decisions.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can while in. EMT certs, commercial driver's license... all can be obtained free. And I intend to. But until I'm out it'll be theory only. I'll take whatever I can get, tho.

Edit: Aye aye Mr. Fig, sir! Wink
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

mtnbkr

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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2006, 10:17:07 AM »
Quote from: dasmi
mtnbkr, you're better off without cable tv.  I haven't watched tv since I moved in October, and I don't miss it a bit.
It's been 8 years since I had Cable TV in my home or apt.  I don't miss it except for a few things: Food Network, History Channel, and Animal Planet.  If I could pay a small fee and get those plus the local channels, I would, but I'm not paying $40+ to get a bunch of crap I don't need.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2006, 10:44:43 AM »
It all boils down to the difference between what you WANT and what you NEED.

What do you NEED?
Food
Water
Clothing
Shelter

What do you WANT?
A house with a seperate bedroom for each kid
Nintendo
Two cars
A computers (to post on APS, of course)
A trip to Disney World
Cable TV
Coffee every morning
Prepared meals (dine out or delivered)
A cell phone, and one for each kid
Private school
A stereo
Guns, lots of guns
A shop vac
A propane bbq grill

If you want to cut your expenses in half, get half as much stuff.  Buy half as much house or get half as much apartment. That will instantly cut your single largest expense by 50%.

Buy a car that's twice as old. Get a good tool set and a Chilton's manual. Do all the repairs yourself, even the one's that take special tools. You can probably buy the tool for a lot less than what you would pay someone else to to the work. And you end up with a repaired car AND a nice tool.

Budget, and stick to it. Only buy what you absolutely need, and what you can't make yourself. Figure out what your average family medical expenses are for a year and set that money back in a pre-tax MSA.

Take all the 100w lightbulbs out and replace them with 60's or 45's.

Prepare your own foodstuffs with basic commodities that you can buy in bulk and store - rice, beans, etc. Buy flour in bulk, parcel it out in to gallon freezer bags. It will keep almost indefinitely. Get a good set of cookware and a Betty Crocker book. Use it. A lot. I can show you how to live on a $30 a month per person food budget and still eat nutritiously. It's not much fun but it IS possible.

And don't whine about "the man" monopolozing everything. It ony hits you if you let it. And you let it by lifestyle choices and by living to a point where you HAVE to rely on corporate America. If you don't like it, then scale back to the point where you don't have to rely on it. Prioritize. And learn to say "No" more often.

And finally... if you don't like "the man" monopolizing their employee base in search of shareholder wealth, THEN DON'T WORK THERE FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!! Get another job. Any job. Or stay where you are and quit grousing about it. And don't whine about not being able to get the same pay somewhere else. You either stay where you are and put up with it for money, or go somewhere else and enjoy it for less money. After all, it is YOUR CHOICE. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to work somewhere.

Sorry this was so blunt, but it needed to be. Scaling back is only as hard as you choose for it to be. And griping about a job being a pain in the butt while staying on for the pay is just stupid. Either shut up, work, and collect your paycheck, or get another job that you like and change your lifestyle to fit the pay.

Coporations only do what their employees, customers, and stakeholders allow them to do. If people choose the lifestyle or the position then the corporation taking every opportunity to maximize the positive return from that position is just good business sense. You can only take advantage of someone who has no alternative. Unless you are being held at gunpoint, there is always an alternative. Crying "foul" that the corps are being mean just because someone wants the same compensation for less work or less responsibility is silly. And getting mad at the 'big 'ol mean corporations' for making money is sillier. That's what they exist for!

Brad
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garyk/nm

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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2006, 01:06:17 PM »
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of BS in the workplace. If work conditions change and I don't like them, I leave. That simple. At-will works both ways, much to the chagrin of some employers. I work when I have a need for additional income.  We have no debt other than a small mortgage and live simply. No dinners out except birthdays or special ocassions. I like to cook and always make enough that we have leftovers for lunches. Paid cash for our new car. Yes, we have DSL and sat. TV, but that is budgeted for. Budgeting is the key.
I guess this is my way of agreeing with the OP's concept.

Fig, I wonder if the "we work 60 hours a week" corp attitude is a backdoor way of keeping us older folks away?

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2006, 02:25:49 PM »
Quote from: garyk/nm
Fig, I wonder if the "we work 60 hours a week" corp attitude is a backdoor way of keeping us older folks away?
I never thought of that, but if they *do* keep us out, they wind up paying a kid less money.  'Course, in many cases, you get what you pay for.  Interesting thought, though Gary!

The Rabbi

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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2006, 02:49:12 PM »
Whine.
People have choices.  We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason.  And it isn't because people knock off work at 4.  Look at France and Germany.  I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

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...has left the building.

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« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2006, 03:04:03 PM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
There is a much lower percentage of self-employed, now, compared to the early years of the U.S.  Seems like "The System" is geared toward hired-hands, whether salaried or hourly.

People holler about the federal income tax as though that's a big deal, but it's FICA + state and local taxes that eat your lunch.  

Factor in having been raised on TV advertising that tells you that you "deserve" a "Good Life" and there went the money.  

The Asians here in the US seem to have the best set of ideas:  Family business, everybody works together, and thinks in terms of the next generation.  Accumulate wealth over time and plan for old age.

Funny.  I never worked much over 40 hours a week on salary, but I probably spent another 20 to 30 hours a week working for ME.  "Hustle".  Find an old car, cheap.  Fix it up.  Drive it a while.  Sell it for some profit and buy some guns or collector coins.  Buy, sell, swap, trade.  Penny-ante investing.  Do all my own home repairs and fixings.  I did this sort of crap for a bunch of years, and now I can write a check in six figures.

Never forget that nobody was ever born an expert anything.  Not even me.

And I sure didn't do without beer and deer and trash-talking with purty gals and I did take Ol' Mama dancin' and we ate a fair amount of prime steak.  Raced sporty cars, went fishin', flew airplanes.  Hey, I got no complaints whatsoever.

But I never let "The System" define my reality.  I let the real world give me a hand with that.

Art

"Wish in one hand, poop in the other.  See which fills up first."
I actually copied this into a Word file and saved it. There is so much solid advice there that I had to read it three times. Thanks Art.