Student Loans WTF over

[InfidelSerf]

Is it just me or is this process the most convoluted of all possible interactions with a government or government related agency?

I have never taken a single dime not one dime from .gov in all of my 38 years.  However I have recently decided that going back to school and acquiring a piece of paper that tells everyone that I'm semi smart and competent would be a good idea.  I can't afford to pay outright from my pocket, so I reluctantly decided to delve into this quagmire we call student loans. I am not looking for a grant or a hand out or anything, I just want a loan upfront so I can attend school and will pay for it as I attend and once I graduate.  
Holy (%^Y#(*&%#@&^%(*&#@%^#(*$&$(*#$(*&$$^@_)%(@)%(#*$($(#$
I regret ever even starting this process.
At this point I think I'm just going to look around and see what kind of stuff I can sell off to fund a semester at a time.  
TWO $*#(* weeks to scan a handful of documents just so I can be put in line to wait another 2-3weeks before I can even get to the point of filling out a loan app without even knowing what I'll be able to take out. And this latest delay is dropped in my lap less than 2 weeks before enrollment starts. So they tell me I can pay out of pocket and then be reimbursed.  If I could pay out of pocket I wouldn't have asked about a loan in the first place.
And all this just to try to start taking classes this summer.
I will have to go through all of this AGAIN for fall.  WTF

Am I just an idiot or is this the true height of insanity???
 

[birdman]

Welcome to government loans.

Ironically, their ineptitude is only overshadowed by their refusal to be economical by assessing risk...like EVERY other loan :(

Personally, i think interest rates should be inversely proportional to average graduate salary for that major from that university, proportionally rated to university cost.
Want to major in feminist basket weaving at overpriced private liberal arts university?  Boom, 20% (providing an incentive for those schools to either make their graduates more effective, or reduce costs)

Want to major in electrical engineering at A&M, VT
2%
EE at MIT?
3% (higher average salary, but costlier)
Want to go to plumber school / apprentice?
1%

Maybe then we would have the proper incentives to keep tuition down, efficiently spend money, and reduce the "burden" of college debt (odd...all the engineers I know don't think their high debt is a burden...it's only the beer/party majors that do....I wonder why?)

Anyway, congrats on going back to school!  Where and for what?

[Scout26]

Wasn't the loan process recently "improved" so that all loans go through the .gov and not banks (like I did for mine, I remember going to an interview at the bank when I applied.  I wore a suit and everything.)

[BlueStarLizzard]

On the other hand, when I got college finacial aid, it was easy peasy. 

the gov wants us dependent on them, not indebted. 

[InfidelSerf]

I have no idea what kind of interest rate they will be offering.  If it's over 10-15% I'll pass and just save up cash and go the long route. 
I'm entering a per-engineering program at my local comm. college.  After I have the associates in science I'll transfer to UNLV. I'm pursuing a mechanical engineering degree.

[MechAg94]

Junior college or community college is definitely the route to take.  I spent two years in junior college before transferring to A&M.  My GPA was likely at least 1/2 a point higher than it would have been if I had gone to A&M as a freshman.  Also, the junior college had much smaller classes in Calculus III and Differential Equations and stuff like that. 

If you can, once you get further along, you can look at internships and co-op jobs that can actually pay pretty good.  Since you are going back to school, you may think otherwise.  For me, getting a percentage of a starting engineer's salary was more pay than I had ever made before. 

[drewtam]

My fed direct loan ("unsubsidized") is about 2%. I owe about $2k, but the interest rate is below inflation, so I don't both paying it off...

Be careful, student loans are NOT discharged in bankruptcy. They will put a lien on income and tax returns. And they will find other ways to screw you if you are late or can't find a job.


I agree with birdman, but would go further. I would make student loans cosigned by the university. If the graduate can't get a job and make payment and declares bankruptcy, the college should eat half the debt. Make them have skin in the game for cost control and limiting debt in non-marketable degrees.

There is nothing inherently wrong to take feminist history for the academic value. But that kind of education is for intellectual pursuit, not marketable investment, and should not be funded by debt.

Just like a $160K Ferrari should not be financed for the whole by a 22year old. A $160K useless college degree should not be financed for the whole by a 22year old. Is it ok to own such a fun car? yes, of course, but pay for toys with cash, not debt.

[Pharmacology]

Is it just me or is this process the most convoluted of all possible interactions with a government or government related agency?

I have never taken a single dime not one dime from .gov in all of my 38 years.  However I have recently decided that going back to school and acquiring a piece of paper that tells everyone that I'm semi smart and competent would be a good idea.  I can't afford to pay outright from my pocket, so I reluctantly decided to delve into this quagmire we call student loans. I am not looking for a grant or a hand out or anything, I just want a loan upfront so I can attend school and will pay for it as I attend and once I graduate.  
Holy (%^Y#(*&%#@&^%(*&#@%^#(*$&$(*#$(*&$$^@_)%(@)%(#*$($(#$
I regret ever even starting this process.
At this point I think I'm just going to look around and see what kind of stuff I can sell off to fund a semester at a time.  
TWO $*#(* weeks to scan a handful of documents just so I can be put in line to wait another 2-3weeks before I can even get to the point of filling out a loan app without even knowing what I'll be able to take out. And this latest delay is dropped in my lap less than 2 weeks before enrollment starts. So they tell me I can pay out of pocket and then be reimbursed.  If I could pay out of pocket I wouldn't have asked about a loan in the first place.
And all this just to try to start taking classes this summer.
I will have to go through all of this AGAIN for fall.  WTF

Am I just an idiot or is this the true height of insanity???
 

Which loans are you applying for?
I just got student loans for the first time ever (Stafford subsidized & unsubsidized),  and the process threw me for a loop.

I filled out the FAFSA, turned in a school related paper, and then the financial office at my college handled the rest.
Possibly a redundant question, but have you spoken with the  financial people at your school?   

[vaskidmark]

Junior college or community college is definitely the route to take.  I spent two years in junior college before transferring to A&M.  My GPA was likely at least 1/2 a point higher than it would have been if I had gone to A&M as a freshman.  Also, the junior college had much smaller classes in Calculus III and Differential Equations and stuff like that. 

If you can, once you get further along, you can look at internships and co-op jobs that can actually pay pretty good.  Since you are going back to school, you may think otherwise.  For me, getting a percentage of a starting engineer's salary was more pay than I had ever made before. 

If you are just starting the edumacation process, there is a way to skip the remedial classes they make most HS grads take before letting them attend actual learning.  CLEP http://clep.collegeboard.org/ can geyt you up to two years worth of kollidge kredits by sitting down for one afternoon and filling in bubbles.  As an "older, non-traditional student" you should check with your state employment services office (where folks go to pick up unemployment checks) to see if they will cover the cost of the tests for you.  Tell them you are trying to improve your employability.

stay safe.

[MicroBalrog]

There is nothing inherently wrong to take feminist history for the academic value. But that kind of education is for intellectual pursuit, not marketable investment, and should not be funded by debt.

A proper liberal arts program teaches a whole pile of marketable skills. Not one that is effectively a support group.

[MechAg94]

A proper liberal arts program teaches a whole pile of marketable skills. Not one that is effectively a support group.

But it is partly or largely up to the student to realistically consider future earnings before absorbing debt.

[Tallpine]

there is a way to skip the remedial classes they make most HS grads take before letting them attend actual learning

I pretty much just ignored all that and signed up for the classes that I thought that I could handle, after almost 20 years since HS.  Once I had an A in something, I figured they wouldn't make me go back and take the pre-requisite.     That was 20+ years ago - it might be harder to get away with now.

They also missed a BS GE requirement that I hadn't yet fulfilled for my junior evaluation.  I wasn't going to open my big mouth - not me    I took extra computer classes instead.  Once I had that paper in my pocket, I only needed to take the classes listed to graduate, plus whatever else I wanted to fill in credits.

Colleges like every other business are mostly incompetent. 

[vaskidmark]

Colleges like every other business are mostly incompetent. 

Unfortunately, I ran into one that was staffed by anal-retentives.  Attending on the GI Bill at the location selected so I could get an early out.  I took care of the mandated civics course by showing up one afternoon and taking 45 minutes to complete the pass/fail test that was booked for a 4-hour slot.  But were they going to waive the 4 semesters of Phys Ed?  Well, originally they were not, even though "The Book" said veterans did not have to fulfill that little prerequisite.  Seems they wanted me to go to a special office and fill out paperwork there documenting that I was a vet, as opposed to all the other paperwork I had dumped in their lap so I could get GI Bill, state reduced tuition, and a few other perks for being a vet.  It literally took an act of Congress (called my congresscritter's office and whined) but they finally figured if I was getting all those other vet-specific things I probably qualified to not have to take 4 semesters of bowling, underwater basket weaving, and the like.  Although I did hear later on that the kids who enrolled in bowling were doing so in order to drink beer while under age. - another reason to avoid that class.

stay safe.

[MicroBalrog]

But it is partly or largely up to the student to realistically consider future earnings before absorbing debt.

The problem as I see it is in the millions of people who think they need 'a degree' (without any consideratoin of what 'a degree' is, or should be) to become members of society, and who think having a degree will automagically lead to earnings.

These people will pollute any college courses that seem 'easy' with their presence, and then study just hard enough to get a piece of paper with their name on them - not desire to actually gain the skills - then whine their degree earned them no money. That's crap.

I've seen an idiot who, at the third year of his English Studies degree, did not know what a paragraph is. Yeah, he's going back to his job in retail. Same place, I knew a girl who studied hard (and was not exceptionally smart), learned the writing and source management skills the degree gives, and she's now an import/export secretary at a small company (let's just say she started pit at $53,000/year). Other fellow I know dropped out of Philosophy to start his own business. When that collapsed he carried over his skills and contacts to working as a freelancer, and came back to finish the degree.

Universities need to start flunking more people.

Can't finish a Bachelor's Degree in 5 years? Show some kind of extenuating circumstances (like suffering a life-wrecking accident) or leave.

Are at your third year of studies and don't know what a paragraph is? Leave.

The state needs to stop regulating and subsidizing universities and college loans. This will cut off prices at the knees and in the long term, will benefit universities and students.

And students and parents need to understand what a university is. It is not magic.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

wow   outstanding post!  put it on facebook so i can share it

[drewtam]

A proper liberal arts program teaches a whole pile of marketable skills. Not one that is effectively a support group.

But I, and most general society, is not in the business of determining whether they are teaching a "proper" liberal arts degree. And it seems to be a bad idea to subject that kind of power to a gov't agency/bureaucrat too.

On the other hand, if the college is on the hook for student loan losses, well, I bet they will quickly determine for themselves which is marketable and which isn't.

[MicroBalrog]

But I, and most general society, is not in the business of determining whether they are teaching a "proper" liberal arts degree. And it seems to be a bad idea to subject that kind of power to a gov't agency/bureaucrat too.

Right, which is why the government should GTFO out of colleges.

It's important to understand that any kind of state regulation of colleges reverts to regulation of colleges - and funding for them - to government of academics, by academics, for academics. What they want - and why they consistently whine for grants-grants-grants-grants - is to maintain a secluded universe where they get to practice the latest academic fad on your dime.

There are untold thousands of academics who believe Universities exist not for the benefit of students but for the benefit of staff.

On the other hand, if the college is on the hook for student loan losses, well, I bet they will quickly determine for themselves which is marketable and which isn't.

I do not understand this.

Why should colleges be on the hook for student loan losses? Should they not be treated equally to other businesses [i.e. not subsidized].

Understand my argument:

What offends me here is the statement that things I study are somehow worthless. No they are not. I have actual experience of marketing the skills I learned in a successful way. The problem is not with liberal arts, it's with idiots that think degrees are magic.

[Physics]

Done properly, a liberal arts degree (or a degree in anything really) can get you a good job, doing what you want to do.  But here's the catch: If you are doing something where there is not a lot of demand for employees, you better be damn good at what you do, or you're not going to get hired.  So, as MB said, it's up to the student to make the most of the education. 

[Tallpine]

Are at your third year of studies and don't know what a paragraph is? Leave.

Back in the dinosaur days, we learned stuff like that by 6th grade or long before.

[White Horseradish]

I've seen an idiot who, at the third year of his English Studies degree, did not know what a paragraph is.

Anyone who is not able to string together a coherent sentence does not belong in college. Sure, these people should have an education, but they need to start in some sort of remedial classes that should not be considered college-level in any way.

[MicroBalrog]

Anyone who is not able to string together a coherent sentence does not belong in college. Sure, these people should have an education, but they need to start in some sort of remedial classes that should not be considered college-level in any way.

Yes, and people who defecate in university hallways should be shot.

Sadly neither is the case.

[Scout26]

wow   outstanding post!  put it on facebook so i can share it

Irony.....

[Doggy Daddy]

Irony.....

While we're at it, would you put THIS post on FB so I can click the "Like" button for it?   

DD

[drewtam]

Why should colleges be on the hook for student loan losses? Should they not be treated equally to other businesses [i.e. not subsidized].

Because they market their degrees as investment to make 2x, 10x, 20x more money in future earnings than a high school degree alone. They make exaggerated claims for job placement. They distort entering student test scores to make the school look more prodigious.

That false advertising, combined with student loan debt that is unethical, to the point of taking advantage of people. In no other situation is a no job, no experience, no money, no collateral 18 year old permitted to take a $50k to $180k loan. A loan which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Could you imagine such a 18-22yr old going to the bank to get a 1-5% loan for $180K to invest in a start up business he has no experience in? or invest in the market? hah!

I think that puts society in a catch-22:
If the student loans are dischargeable, then private investment would have 0 support for the market, which is bad for society and only encourages more foolish gov't meddling.

If the loans are not dischargeable, then the college doesn't care what degree a student gets. It incentivizes the wrong behavior on the college side. Especially when a degree is not market oriented, I fully agree that still doesn't make it worthless. For example, I think everyone here would accept history and archaeology as having significant academic, social, and intellectual value; the fact is it has limited market value. In these cases, such a degree should not be funded by large amounts of debt. Again, in the current situation, the college is incentivized to sell as many History degrees to as many as they can possibly pack into the stadium lecture hall, regardless of the students ability to repay, and regardless of the job prospects in the discipline of history.

What offends me here is the statement that things I study are somehow worthless. No they are not. I have actual experience of marketing the skills I learned in a successful way. The problem is not with liberal arts, it's with idiots that think degrees are magic.

Offended easily?
(just kidding)
So my point is that I don't care what worth your degree is. And you don't care what I think your degree is worth. But what matters is the market truth, whether a loan was used to actually develop your (or anyone's) latent talents into marketable skills and ability that someone is willing to pay for, while also screening out those with no talent.

[RoadKingLarry]

Something that still surprises me is the number of people that actually think the main purpose of a college is to educated students.