21 Foot Rule - Or Not

[dogmush]

And the last point is the one I mentioned above: It was Dennis Tueller himself who said that 21 feet is no longer valid, because the 1.5 seconds is no longer the average time to draw -- because retention holsters are slower than whatever they were using when he created the drill. As far as I know he has never assigned a new number to the distance, and that's probably because he never intended for 21 feet to be portrayed as a "rule." Why update to a new number that will also be mis-portrayed as a "rule"?

OK, then I disagree with Mr. Tueller.  If you can't get your gun out of a duty holster and a shot on target in less (ideally much less) than 1.5 sec the issue is you need more training, not that your retention holster is slow.  The solution is definitely not for cops to increase the radius in which they consider someone a "lethal threat" with the accompanying LEO twitchiness and command screaming.

[K Frame]

Her voice sure lost all that bullshit coppish authoritah real quick.

She needs to go back to school.  All that shrieking is wasted energy that should be used while relying upon her pistol, taser, baton, or bare hands.

Shrieking is for getting the cops' attention and their help.  She is supposed to BE the help.

That's been a component of quite a few hostile encounters.

*expletive deleted*it goes south, BP goes up, and a big, burly hemanly cop starts screeching like a little girl.

[Ben]

OK, then I disagree with Mr. Tueller.  If you can't get your gun out of a duty holster and a shot on target in less (ideally much less) than 1.5 sec the issue is you need more training, not that your retention holster is slow.  The solution is definitely not for cops to increase the radius in which they consider someone a "lethal threat" with the accompanying LEO twitchiness and command screaming.

Agreed. I'm an amateur, and a draw of around a second is not difficult from the KT Mech ALS knockoff holster on my battle belt. Certainly easier and faster than I can draw from a lot of my concealment clothing. A cop who can't draw from a duty belt in a second needs more practice. Or maybe some of them use or are issued crappy retention holsters?

[MechAg94]

For this video, it looked to me like the warning signs were there as soon as the hammer wielding guy started walking down the drive way.  IMO, she should have had her hand on her gun at that point if not already pulling it out of the holster while she called for backup, etc. 

That is probably hindsight on my part, but it seemed pretty obvious from my chair.   

[Devonai]

Yeah well you're just an armchair quar... oh, right.

[Hawkmoon]

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/the-tueller-drill-myth-why-the-21-foot-rule-isnt-a-rule-at-all/

https://www.policemag.com/weapons/article/15348726/beyond-the-tueller-drill

And from Dennis Tueller himself:
https://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

[Ben]

Related, another one where the bad dude kept on shooting.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/north-dakota-police-officers-bodycam-footage-shows-moment-ambushed

[Angel Eyes]

Related, another one where the bad dude kept on shooting.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/north-dakota-police-officers-bodycam-footage-shows-moment-ambushed

Thread drift: according to other articles, the perp had a binary trigger in his firearem.  Watch for the usual suspects to exploit the tragedy and demand a ban.

[MechAg94]

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/the-tueller-drill-myth-why-the-21-foot-rule-isnt-a-rule-at-all/

https://www.policemag.com/weapons/article/15348726/beyond-the-tueller-drill

And from Dennis Tueller himself:
https://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

I seem to remember a Massad Ayoob article where he was talking about doing that exercise in his classes.  Even a wheelchair bound or disabled person could cover 21 feet in a few seconds and an athlete could do it in 1 second, maybe less.  It just underscored practicing your draw and your movement and being aware of the indicators that tell you something is about to happen. 

And at a minimum, a determined attacker can be very dangerous even if they are out of reach.  If there is one stereotype the movies always come back to is the unarmed person is always able to disarm the other person to set up the big boss fight. 

[JN01]

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/the-tueller-drill-myth-why-the-21-foot-rule-isnt-a-rule-at-all/

https://www.policemag.com/weapons/article/15348726/beyond-the-tueller-drill

And from Dennis Tueller himself:
https://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

Bingo.