Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Blakenzy on August 11, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
-
So this week I have seen an avalanche of chatter and videos on the Sig P320 discharging when dropped on its rear end. What says the collective about the repercusion on the individual user, the brand and on the Army contract?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA
-
How does the very model of a major modern gunmaker produce a non-drop-safe gun?
-
IDK but selling a modern service pistol that has the same issue as a 1880's single action revolver is perplexing. Perhaps the design was rushed through. If I recall correctly it is a direct derivative the DAO P250 that was a commercial flop. Short cuts may have been taking when adapting a hammer fired trigger system to a striker fired weapon.
-
I know it's classified as a DAO but the stiker is significantly pretensioned during slide action. No amount of engineering can overcome the fact that internal components will shift when subject to a substantial impact. Things shift, the striker is release. Physics.
If I understand the P320's innerds correctly, the only safety interlock is a striker block which moves out of the way as the trigger is depressed. From what I gather the movement of the trigger is enough to move this striker block juuuuuuuust enough for it to allow striker movement and for the sear to trip. Essentially the trigger mechanism is functioning just as if the trigger has been intentionally pulled.
With no redundancies such as manual, grip or trigger safeties then it was just a matter of time before this happened. If it hadn't been this then it would likely have been a slightly misaligned holster port or a piece of gear snagging the trigger during reholstering. Regardless of the lightened triggger in M17 variants it's certainly not something I'd trust in the rough-and-tumble environment of a battlefield. Too much gear, too much movement, too much of a whole bunch of stuff that can snag, press, punch, poke, or otherwise activate a trigger which take only a few pounds to trip.
Brad
-
The .gov of many states, and thus now apparently a de facto standard, is to test for discharge if the firearm is dropped straight down on the muzzle. So in developing the P320 SIG tested to that "standard" and it passed. Now, field experience (including a SWAT cop in Connecticut who shot himself in the leg by dropping a holstered pistol) has show that if the P320 is dropped at a 30 degree angle, muzzle tilted up and firearm upside down so it lands on the back of the slide, it can (and often does) go off. It's the mass (and attendant inertia) of the trigger mechanism itself that does the dirty deed. There's a striker block, but no trigger block.
The military M17 isn't affected because it uses a different trigger mechanism. It seems this, ah ... shall we say "issue" ... became apparent before or during the military trials so the XM17 used a different trigger. SIG has now issued a "voluntary recall" to repair all of the old design P320s in the wild. The fix involves installing a lighter trigger mechanism, but my understanding is that it also involves some machingin of the slide and received, so there must be more to it than just the weight of the trigger.
Much of the chatter is about whether not SIG knew about the problem and kept quiet, or only found out when they started getting reports from police departments around the country. To me, the fact that the gun they're selling the military uses a different trigger mechanism, coupled with the fact that virtually as soon as the news went viral they had a fix and announced a recall, strongly suggests that they knew and kept quiet.
But that's conjecture on my part.
-
Hawkmoon summarized what I have heard. As long as they actually do the recall, I have no issue. I heard they would post details on 8/14.
One of the links I saw shows someone hitting the back of the pistol (the striker) with a hammer and getting it to go off. I have no idea if others pistols would pass this "test" or not.
My other wonder is if the Sig passed "standard" tests, what other pistols out there have passed "standard" tests, but might fail otherwise? I am frustrated because I was hoping to throw a couple of loaded pistols around the house this weekend and now I am worried they might go off.
-
That is a big issue... if they knew it would consistently go off if dropped form waist height, and still went ahead and pushed it on the commercial market. Criminal negligence at the least.
Why do standard tests only consider pistols dropped on the muzzle or side? Is the test rigged to hide modes of faliure that are harder (more costly) for the manufacturer to prevent?
-
https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/sig-sauer-p320-fails-drop-test/
The first drop test we engaged in with our assortment of four Sig P320 pistols was structured on the California DOJ drop test, conducted at one meter and one centimeter above a concrete pad with the pistol dropped precisely at six different angles, all of which require the bore to be parallel to or perpendicular to the ground. All of our P320 pistols passed this test, which matches neatly with statements from Sig on the matter.
However, I decided to continue testing using other protocols, which call for drops from 1.5 meters, or approximately 5 feet. In doing so, I accidentally dropped the P320 Compact 45ACP at an incorrect angle. As the pistol fell, I thought to myself, “What a waste, we’re going to ding this pistol up again for nothing.” When it hit the ground, a loud POP echoed through the building, and the muzzle flashed as the primer exploded. We were surprised.
-
Why do standard tests only consider pistols dropped on the muzzle or side? Is the test rigged to hide modes of failure that are harder (more costly) for the manufacturer to prevent?
How can any standard test fully anticipate all firearm designs? In the case of the SIG, the magic configuration to initiate an accidental discharge is 30 degrees off the vertical, with the gun upside down (slide lower than receiver). For some other gun, it might be 45 degrees ... or 30 degrees from the horizontal ... or at an angle with the muzzle down instead of up ... or ...
I don't think the tests are rigged. In fact, the tests are mostly devised by states who WANT to ban as many guns as possible, not make them safer. California isn't likely to be in league with the gun manufacturers in specifying tests that are easier to pass.
-
Hmmm. There's no way of knowing then.
So this means that a drop un-safe pistol may be hiding anywhere, waiting for it's next victim in neigborhood gun shop, peering out from a friendly policeman's holster, lurking behind a gunsafe's heavy door, or sitting on a cofee table right next to you!
*looks suspiciously at G26 on table* [tinfoil]
-
Sooooooo, you have to drop it at exactly the correct angle to get it to fire.... But if they reduce the weight of the trigger by 6-30% or put in the tabbed trigger, then even if you drop it a precisely the correct angle it won't fire.
So unlike every other military piece of kit ever made (Crashhawk, M16, etc.) this item is having teething issues.
Colour me shocked.
-
Sooooooo, you have to drop it at exactly the correct angle to get it to fire.... But if they reduce the weight of the trigger by 6-30% or put in the tabbed trigger, then even if you drop it a precisely the correct angle it won't fire.
So unlike every other military piece of kit ever made (Crashhawk, M16, etc.) this item is having teething issues.
Colour me shocked.
No, the military version already has the improved trigger.
-
I know it's classified as a DAO but the stiker is significantly pretensioned during slide action. No amount of engineering can overcome the fact that internal components will shift when subject to a substantial impact. Things shift, the striker is release. Physics.
....
Brad
I diagnosed about the same thing with an admittedly cheap small SA ,22 auto pistol (Sterling).
Firing pin (striker) channel hole was enough oversized that if dropped with the top of the slide flat to the impact surface, there was enough clearance that the striker would keep going toward the top of the slide and slip off the sear. Fortunately it was unloaded at the time, but I verified it several times. I subsequently found it would sometimes double-tap in my hand from the impact of the slide closing.
So. While admittedly a cheapo, "yang happens."
Even with well-known major modern firearms manufacturers. Wasn't there a recall on the new Ruger Model/Mark IV .22?
And there's the old one about the Remington Model 700 safety, which went on for decades before Remington "got it right."
Plus, S&W's recall of their version of the Walther .380. I mean, y'know, Walther, f' cryin' out loud !
Terry, 230RN
-
I knew they should have gone with the R51. [shakes head]
-
I knew they should have gone with the R51. [shakes head]
The 2.0 version of the R51 is decent, but not, I think, what the army would want.
-
I knew they should have gone with the R51. [shakes head]
:lol:
-
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-offers-voluntary-upgrade-of-p320-pistol-that-can-discharge-erroneously.html
Sig Sauer is offering a "voluntary upgrade" after "recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge."
The army's version of the gun is not affected, Sig Sauer said.
The company will announce full details of the program Aug. 14.
I heard someone say the drop issue did not affect pistols assembled after October, but I have not see a link to that. I will see what they say Monday.
Bill Frady said there are probably more P320 pistols being dropped on concrete this week than anyone could imagine due to these issues. And that is just the amateur testers. =D
-
Can't we all just enjoy the exploding heads of the sig fanboi's for a little longer? Couldn't happen to nicer people. :rofl:
-
Can't we all just enjoy the exploding heads of the sig fanboi's for a little longer? Couldn't happen to nicer people. :rofl:
What about Glock-heads or HK fans?
-
What about Glock-heads or HK fans?
Glock heads and HK fanboi's already have a bunch of funny meme's. Now we have sig ones too!
-
Glock heads and HK fanboi's already have a bunch of funny meme's. Now we have sig ones too!
But are they sig worthy?
-
Recoil magazine interviewed two of Sig's people.
http://www.recoilweb.com/sig-sauer-p320-safety-update-129040.html
-
Saw a video the other day of a guy who chambered a primed case (no powder/no bullet), the smacked the back of the slide with a gunsmith mallet while holding the pistol in a firing position. On the fourth hit, the gun fired. So, I'm wondering if it's really the trigger being "pulled" by inertia from the fall/impact, or is there something in the mechanism.
-
Saw a video the other day of a guy who chambered a primed case (no powder/no bullet), the smacked the back of the slide with a gunsmith mallet while holding the pistol in a firing position. On the fourth hit, the gun fired. So, I'm wondering if it's really the trigger being "pulled" by inertia from the fall/impact, or is there something in the mechanism.
All I can think of is the firing pin moving with the impact.
That said, I can't recall ever hearing of someone smacking the back side of a pistol with a hammer. Is that something people do to test all guns or are they just doing it now because of the issue?
-
That said, I can't recall ever hearing of someone smacking the back side of a pistol with a hammer. Is that something people do to test all guns or are they just doing it now because of the issue?
Because of the issue, I'm sure.
-
Recoil magazine interviewed two of Sig's people.
http://www.recoilweb.com/sig-sauer-p320-safety-update-129040.html
I first read that as Recall Magazine.
-
"So, I'm wondering if it's really the trigger being 'pulled' by inertia from the fall/impact, or is there something in the mechanism."
"All I can think of is the firing pin moving with the impact."
Like I said upthread:
"Firing pin (striker) channel hole was enough oversized that if dropped with the top of the slide flat to the impact surface, there was enough clearance that the striker would keep going toward the top of the slide and slip off the sear."
-
I first read that as Recall Magazine.
Well, Sig is doing a recall on the 320. =D
-
But are they sig worthy?
I just wanted you to know that somebody appreciated that one!
-
I just wanted you to know that somebody appreciated that one!
Not me. Bad puns leave a sauer taste in my mouth.
-
I'd say that my continuing to carry a revolver as my primary defensive handgun keeps looking better and better all the time. :)
-
I'd say that my continuing to carry a revolver as my primary defensive handgun keeps looking better and better all the time. :)
I will stick with CZ.
My Sig P320 is the only Sig I have gotten that I really like. I have had the 220, 225, 229 and none seemed to work well for me. The P320 I have seems to be a very very reliable pistol. I just shoot my CZ P07 a little better.
-
I'd say that my continuing to carry a revolver as my primary defensive handgun keeps looking better and better all the time. :)
Right, because no revolvers have ever been capable of discharging when dropped.
-
Right, because no revolvers have ever been capable of discharging when dropped.
OMG! You're right! All we're going to do is kill ourselves when we drop our guns! It doesn't matter! It's inevitable!
Thanks, but I'll stick with my revolvers, especially over plastic fantastic crap.
So, that's Sig.
Taurus had this problem, too, with one of its "modern" handguns not that long ago.
Glock has allegedly had drop test problems in the past.
Give me one good reason why I should abandon my revolvers... I can't think of any.
-
Guys, leave Mike to his revolvers and manual transmissions, and dial-up internet, and coal heat, and hand pumped wells. This modern technology will never catch on anyway.
-
Give me one good reason why I should abandon my revolvers... I can't think of any.
Never said you should. Carry what you like.
That said, how much sense does it make to feel vindicated in choosing revolvers based on the fact that some semi-autos are susceptible to firing when dropped if some types of revolver have been susceptible to exactly the same failure?
-
"That said, how much sense does it make to feel vindicated in choosing revolvers based on the fact that some semi-autos are susceptible to firing when dropped if some types of revolver have been susceptible to exactly the same failure?"
Oh, I don't know, apparently about the same as your feeling like a sniggling self-righteous prat for "educating" everyone that OMG, Mike COULDN'T be making a completely tongue-in-cheek comment now, could he? He's REALLY serious!
You've done your job for today.
Bravo.
-
"Guys, leave Mike to his revolvers and manual transmissions, and dial-up internet, and coal heat"
Coal heat? *expletive deleted*it, I wish!
Fantastic heat source, and one guaranteed to piss off the earth goddess mun men.
That's a double win.
-
Bravo.
:-*
-
Fantastic heat source, and one guaranteed to piss off the earth goddess mun men.
Yes, but if you piss off the goddess she's likely to send Mr. Carbon Monoxide to visit, and he's known as the silent killer for a reason.
-
Oil, gas, wood, coal, then can all summon the angry silent god CO...
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
-
Oil, gas, wood, coal, then can all summon the angry silent god CO...
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
So when are you going to do drop tests on all your revolvers? =)
-
Just carry an original-recipe 1911. They don't even claim to be drop-safe. At least you know what you're getting.
-
My revolvers don't produce CO...
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
-
So when are you going to do drop tests on all your revolvers? =)
Years ago I tossed my Charter Arms Undercover out of my second floor and onto a concrete slab patio, to address some people on TFL who were claiming that if you dropped a revolver a half millimeter onto a feather bed it would bend everything and cause it to lock up permanently.
I never could get it to malfunction, bend, shatter, or disappear through a wormhole...
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72856&highlight=charter+arms+patio
-
I look at it this way...any manufacturer will have an issue, even more so with a new design. This is true for guns, cars, dishwashers, etc. I don't judge SIG any more than I judge Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Winchester, or any of the other major gun companies that have had recalls. If it becomes an ongoing and frequent issue, maybe I'll worry. Until then, my SIG is my carry gun, with full confidence. Granted, I don't have a P320...
All that said, I'm curious about this issue, because it's not just drops that cause it, but the hammer strikes as well...
-
Gun Talk Radio had an interview Sunday with a Sig guy at the beginning of the 3rd hour if you are interested.
Either way, I signed up for the trigger upgrade last night. We will see.
-
I look at it this way...any manufacturer will have an issue, even more so with a new design. This is true for guns, cars, dishwashers, etc. I don't judge SIG any more than I judge Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Winchester, or any of the other major gun companies that have had recalls. If it becomes an ongoing and frequent issue, maybe I'll worry. Until then, my SIG is my carry gun, with full confidence. Granted, I don't have a P320...
All that said, I'm curious about this issue, because it's not just drops that cause it, but the hammer strikes as well...
I'm a busy man.
I pass judgement and I move on.
And I don't look back.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Most of my guns have hammer blocks to stop that kind of nonsense including my OLD Model 59 S&W.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2FFaces%2FSpeedy%26amp%3BLilBrother.jpg&hash=782aadda7bcb1892a190c339852d89e847399cec)
-
Just an FYI. I got my P320 Compact back from Sig yesterday. Got the shipping label and sent it off to them Nov 1st. I was happy with the turnaround especially since they were talking 6 weeks when I shipped it.
Anyway, the trigger IMO is a little better than the original. Almost no take up and not much movement to reset. I like it. I can't tell if anything else changed. Still shoots good and 100% reliable.
-
Have you hit it with a hammer yet?
-
Have you hit it with a hammer yet?
Nope. I ain't gonna do that. I haven't dropped it either. =D