Author Topic: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental  (Read 4896 times)

Tallpine

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 07:02:18 PM »
It was not sunk. There was a 39 ft by 24 ft hole in the side, and 821 rocket and machine-gun holes. But Captain McGonagle's command single handedly kept the ship afloat and most of the crew alive, earning the Medal of Honor in the process.

The Israelis hit the ship with Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon. Jammed the US Navy frequencies. They strafed the ship with 20 and 40 mm shells from torpedo boats. They hit the Liberty with a big honkin' torpedo. Machinegunned the lifeboats. And tried to land a helicopter filled with commandos. And they were essentially held at bay by one man. Dude started off with a handful of M2HB (quickly napalmed) and ended basically with a handful of small arms, fending off wave after wave of superior firepower. In the process, he was wounded, refused to give up command, and had the medics working on him on the bridge. That's right, he fought valiantly against those odds while injured and missing his pants. Truly an inspiration to us all.

We're America. We can beat your best without even getting out of a chair or putting on our trousers.

Scots are used to fighting without pants ;)

 =D
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De Selby

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2012, 09:04:59 PM »
While I don't necessarily want other countries killing US citizens with impunity, I really don't think our Govt should be backing and implicitly supporting US Citizens who choose to go to foreign countries and involve themselves in local politics and disputes. 

Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
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Blakenzy

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2012, 09:46:04 PM »
Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?

ZING!
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mtnbkr

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2012, 09:58:03 PM »
Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?

We're protecting ourselves by taking the fight to them.

I'll leave that up to you as to whether I'm serious or not.

Chris

Hawkmoon

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2012, 11:32:05 PM »
Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?

You seem to have overlooked the operative word: "choose"
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2012, 12:23:08 AM »
You seem to have overlooked the operative word: "choose"

Quite. Military folk choose to defend their country; not how that mission will be interpreted.
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MechAg94

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2012, 10:01:22 AM »
Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
;/ I am sure even you can understand the difference between some random tourist and someone who actually represents our government. 
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De Selby

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 08:00:05 PM »
;/ I am sure even you can understand the difference between some random tourist and someone who actually represents our government. 

Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok. 

funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 08:06:04 PM »
Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok.  

No, not permission. Orders. Military members don't get to choose where or why the military is deployed. That would be a step backward into military rule.


Quote
funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.

No, nobody said that.


Sorry, man. You just can't find the irony, or contradiction, or hypocrisy, or whatever it is you're looking for here. Better luck next time.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »
Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok. 

funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.

Your statement pretty much said that individual soldiers "choose" to go to foreign countries and meddle in their politics. That's very different from our government choosing to meddle in other countries' politics, and ordering members of the military to go to said countries and carry out said meddling. It's not like they really have a choice. The UCMJ is very clear that soldiers are not supposed to obey unlawful orders, but they jolly well better obey any order they're not VERY certain is unlawful.
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De Selby

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2012, 09:06:33 PM »
Your statement pretty much said that individual soldiers "choose" to go to foreign countries and meddle in their politics. That's very different from our government choosing to meddle in other countries' politics, and ordering members of the military to go to said countries and carry out said meddling. It's not like they really have a choice. The UCMJ is very clear that soldiers are not supposed to obey unlawful orders, but they jolly well better obey any order they're not VERY certain is unlawful.

So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action?  Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals?   Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?

« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:45:41 PM by De Selby »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2012, 09:30:59 PM »
Don't bother, Hawkmoon.  ;/
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2012, 04:52:26 PM »
So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action?  Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals?   Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?



See if you get this:

If I send a man somewhere to risk his life, I am, to an extent, responsible for these risks.

If he goes off on his own, with no request or encouragement from me, I cannot be held responsible in any way, shape, or form.

Yes, it might be better to help that man out, but I am certainly not duty-bound to do so.

Lots of U.S. citizens are arrested and put in prison annually abroad for doing things that are not illegal in the US, or because due process in the countries they're doing it in works differently than in America. They are neither protected by the US government nor would it be feasible for the US to protect anyone who brings upon himself the wrath of a foreign government - it is only when the government is tyrannical (like Iran) that this bring out public outrage.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2012, 05:00:56 PM »
I'm all for the axiom of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" but in certain circumstances, such as Iran targeting our citizens as a political reprisal, and not for actual misdeeds being committed, I'm reminded of a 2 millennia old phrase.

Civis Romanus sum.

brimic

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2012, 05:08:36 PM »
Quote
The bulldozer driver has said he didn't see 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a pro-Palestinian activist who opposed the military's demolition of Palestinian homes.


So she went overseas on her own volition to oppose a foreign military.
Doesn't this make her a merc?
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MechAg94

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2012, 05:26:17 PM »
So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action?  Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals?   Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?


If she had stepped out in front of an 18 wheeler in the US to protest logging, I would have about the same level of remorse, all for the unfortunate driver who has to deal with running her over.  In neither case would she represent me or my country in any way whatsoever nor would I assign any fault to the driver that ran her over or the people the driver represents. 
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roo_ster

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2012, 05:50:40 PM »
If she had stepped out in front of an 18 wheeler in the US to protest logging, I would have about the same level of remorse, all for the unfortunate driver who has to deal with running her over.  In neither case would she represent me or my country in any way whatsoever nor would I assign any fault to the driver that ran her over or the people the driver represents. 

This.

I recall an incident where an environitwit sat on some RR tracks to block a train and got his legs cut off.  The engineer likely could not stop in time.  Likewise, my sympathy is for the engineer, not the nitwit.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2012, 05:52:51 PM »
This.

I recall an incident where an environitwit sat on some RR tracks to block a train and got his legs cut off.  The engineer likely could not stop in time.  Likewise, my sympathy is for the engineer, not the nitwit.


I saw video of that. Train. Was going slow. The guy on the tracks was poster child for moron
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gunsmith

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2012, 06:17:20 PM »
Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard of the USS Liberty.


iirc R Corrie's parents are just as idiotic as their daughter, I'm glad they lost.

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Blakenzy

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2012, 07:15:33 PM »
Quote
So she went overseas on her own volition to oppose a foreign military.
Doesn't this make her a merc?

Nope, not quite, just a revolutionary rebel, like those fellows that are always on CNN, you know the ones belonging to ex Al Qaeda factions that are currently fighting the Syrian Government and receive NATO, Saudi and Qatari support. What are they called again? The Free Syrian Army?

They were upgraded from terrorists to freedom fighters when they started fighting for the interests of our allies.  ;)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2012, 07:54:53 PM »
Nope, not quite, just a revolutionary rebel, like those fellows that are always on CNN, you know the ones belonging to ex Al Qaeda factions that are currently fighting the Syrian Government and receive NATO, Saudi and Qatari support. What are they called again? The Free Syrian Army?

They were upgraded from terrorists to freedom fighters when they started fighting for the interests of our allies.  ;)

I thought that the NATO money goes to some competing Syrian rebel faction?
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RocketMan

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2012, 01:10:27 AM »
I thought that the NATO money goes to some competing Syrian rebel faction?

I doubt there is much control over where that money ultimately goes.
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stevelyn

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Re: Rachel Corrie's Death Ruled Accidental
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2012, 10:27:24 PM »
Note to self............ Buy more Caterpillar stock.........
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