Author Topic: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.  (Read 107410 times)

Monkeyleg

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2009, 06:52:45 PM »
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I believe they actually make most of there money from concerts, sooo....

And I make most of my money from paid advertising on my website. Does that mean that I should give the products on my online store away for free?

C'mon, admit it. You're looking for someone to say, "it's okay to steal." It wouldn't be half as bad if some of you weren't coming up with the most absurd justifications.

lupinus

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2009, 07:05:20 PM »
Monkey,

If I buy something once why should I have to buy it a second time?  Why should I not be able to copy it so long as I do not distribute or make money from it?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2009, 07:10:27 PM »
Copying it is fine; giving those copies away not so much.
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Racehorse

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2009, 07:12:38 PM »
Monkey,

If I buy something once why should I have to buy it a second time?  Why should I not be able to copy it so long as I do not distribute or make money from it?

If you actually buy it once, I agree. The problem is that most of the people who are guilty of and defend copyright infringement never buy it.

Strings

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2009, 09:47:44 PM »
I think there are two issues here. The first is one of degree: I don't think anyone would "cry havoc" for me buying a cd, burning it to my iTunes folder, then handing it to Monkeyleg: that kinda thing has been happening for as long as we've had recordable home media.

But if I burn it, then post the files on some website where anybody can DL them (whether free or at a fee), then I truly am stealing...

The second issue is one of "new system v old system". With today's technology, there need never be an actual physical disk: music can be freely sent back and forth over the web. This cuts out the middlemen (such as the RIAA), and that tends to make them a bit tetchy...
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2009, 10:18:01 PM »
How is it stealing when you aren't depriving them of anything?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2009, 10:22:31 PM »
Because you're getting it for free. Before if you wanted to own the file you had to buy it. Now you can own the artists work, without the artist ever getting anything for it.

I love the "I'm stealing music cause it's so good for the artist" line of argument here.
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makattak

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2009, 10:36:00 PM »
How is it stealing when you aren't depriving them of anything?

Actually, you are depriving them of the full benefits of their labor.

The problem here is that we now have a large increase in the number of goods that have the characteristics of a public good.

MANY people can use electronic files at the same time without depriving anyone else of their use. A record would not allow that to the same extent- I could listen to your record with you, but the use of that good was limited by the radius of the sound.

Today, I can copy the files and MILLIONS of individuals can use the same file without consequence to others: this is non-rivalrous consumption.

The issue at hand is excludability. RIAA and other such organizations are doing all they can to be able to exclude people from using these digital files. (Making them pay first).

The technology of the internet is moving such files towards non-excludability.

We are currently in the fight between an old business model dealing with new technology. How they will deal with the fact that their product is becoming a public good is an interesting economic study.

Personally, I think we will move towards online music being advertising for artists performances: artists may even begin paying for their work to be posted on certain sites.

Please note, I believe artists deserve compensation for their work. I also believe downloading music is wrong (currently). I also think technology has progressed to the point that organizations such as RIAA are much like the newspapers: grasping onto a failed business model.
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2009, 11:15:59 PM »
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Because you're getting it for free.

So getting something for free = stealing?

 :lol:
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2009, 12:04:48 AM »
So getting something for free = stealing?

 :lol:

Umm, yeah? When you take something without the owner's permission or compensating them in any way, that is pretty much the definition of stealing. Even if you promise promise promise you'll get around to buying it if you like it, or you're just doing it for the artists benefit.
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S. Williamson

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2009, 12:18:53 AM »
This is a long video (41 minutes).  It is an interview with Trent Reznor (via Digg), and he makes a FAR better argument than anything I have ever heard anyone make on the topic of this thread before.

Fortunately, the pertinent discussion is at the beginning of the video, but the whole thing is a good interview if you have the time.


http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/trent-reznor-answers-questions-digg-users/
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 12:25:35 AM by Dionysusigma »
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lupinus

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2009, 02:39:55 PM »
Copying it is fine; giving those copies away not so much.

Problem is more and more media is becoming write protected.  DVD movies are an excellent example and I believe the copyright law now flat out prohibits any copying and they generally require special software to fully back up.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Jamisjockey

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2009, 03:06:15 PM »
Monkey,

If I buy something once why should I have to buy it a second time?  Why should I not be able to copy it so long as I do not distribute or make money from it?

If you buy a light bulb, and drop it, do you expect WalMart to just hand you another one?
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Nick1911

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2009, 03:11:02 PM »
If you buy a light bulb, and drop it, do you expect WalMart to just hand you another one?

Meh. IMO, Tangible goods and intangible intellectual property don't compare well.  Apples to oranges.

freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2009, 03:12:07 PM »
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If you buy a light bulb, and drop it, do you expect WalMart to just hand you another one?

That doesn't relate to what he is saying.

Quote
Umm, yeah? When you take something without the owner's permission or compensating them in any way, that is pretty much the definition of stealing.

That isn't what you said, nor what I was asking. What you said implied that the mere act of getting something for free was stealing, doesn't matter where you are getting it. Now, after someone buys a cd it becomes theres, so by them allowing others to have copies of it it wouldn't be stealing because the owner is giving permission.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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AJ Dual

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2009, 03:16:00 PM »
Please note, I believe artists deserve compensation for their work. I also believe downloading music is wrong (currently). I also think technology has progressed to the point that organizations such as RIAA are much like the newspapers: grasping onto a failed business model.

I agree that file piracy is "stealing".

However I would have a lot more respect for the RIAA's position if concern over their I.P. really was the core issue. In practical terms, they're just trying to preserve their distribution and business models through brute-force litigation.

Yes, there are serious Copyright and I.P. issues at stake, I understand that. However, there is also a huge component of them not adjusting to the market as well.

It fails on the I.P. and Copyright side of it, but I think many have a sense that what the RIAA is doing is akin to the saddle and buggy-whip makers suing against the automobile in every venue they can, rather than getting off their asses and investing in gas stations, and auto parts. And that's why the public at large isn't overly concerned about file-sharing/piracy.

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Iain

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2009, 03:26:40 PM »
This is a long video (41 minutes).  It is an interview with Trent Reznor (via Digg), and he makes a FAR better argument than anything I have ever heard anyone make on the topic of this thread before.

Fortunately, the pertinent discussion is at the beginning of the video, but the whole thing is a good interview if you have the time.


http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/trent-reznor-answers-questions-digg-users/


He makes a lot of sense there, particularly when he basically says that if the record labels would create a reasonably priced subscription model that allowed you to download what you want from them, and allowed you freedom with those products he wouldn't be developing the business models that he is.

My major problem with the record labels and the RIAA is that they are fighting a war they have already lost against a technology that they have not kept up with. Provide us with what Trent describes.

You're probably not going to have this issue, but I suspect that we are going to have a big fight over TV licenses and broadband in the next few years. The BBC has developed decent web-based services like iPlayer, and it is going to try and levy a charge one way or another. Unfortunately the TV license is a relic of the middle of the last century and we are going to have change a lot because of the internet. Video streaming high quality programmes was barely on the horizon three or four years ago.
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Gewehr98

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2009, 03:27:03 PM »
Huh?

Quote
Now, after someone buys a cd it becomes theres, so by them allowing others to have copies of it it wouldn't be stealing because the owner is giving permission.

When did the owner give permission to distribute multiple copies?

That's weak.

I've gone after folks who've taken my images and documented works without permission.

I'll do it again.

It's also why you see most of my stuff with a faint watermark these days.
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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2009, 03:31:12 PM »
Meh. IMO, Tangible goods and intangible intellectual property don't compare well.  Apples to oranges.

I was replying to this aspect of the discussion:

Monkey,

If I buy something once why should I have to buy it a second time?  Why should I not be able to copy it so long as I do not distribute or make money from it?

JD

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De Selby

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »
I think we all agree that copyright owners should be able to enforce the right to charge.

My issue with this comes with damages.  Why do copyright holders get massive damages awarded without having to prove actual injury? 

Even if you get your face burned off, in a lawsuit for damages you have to introduce evidence that actually proves your losses in order to get paid for it.  Why all the special extra protections for this form of property over any other?
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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2009, 03:37:32 PM »
I think we all agree that copyright owners should be able to enforce the right to charge.

My issue with this comes with damages.  Why do copyright holders get massive damages awarded without having to prove actual injury? 

Even if you get your face burned off, in a lawsuit for damages you have to introduce evidence that actually proves your losses in order to get paid for it.  Why all the special extra protections for this form of property over any other?

Because they have deep pockets, and lobbied Congress for such special protections.

IMO, once the Internet and ill-will over file-sharing lawsuits has destroyed the recording industry, watch for these laws to change as other business interests that have financial stakes in the new distribution and business models rise to promininence.
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lupinus

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2009, 03:38:35 PM »
If you buy a light bulb, and drop it, do you expect WalMart to just hand you another one?
If I decided I wanted to copy that light bulb for my own personal use and not to resell or distribute should I be legally liable?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

AJ Dual

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2009, 03:52:24 PM »
If I decided I wanted to copy that light bulb for my own personal use and not to resell or distribute should I be legally liable?

Well, normally you'd have to buy another lightbulb to have a second one, so you can argue "harm" to the manufacturer.

If you bought one "license" to the music, and you are it's sole consumer, should it matter how you carry the music with you?

So the analogy is more like if you were really cheap and unscrewed the lightbulb and took it with you room to room.  =)
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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2009, 03:57:13 PM »
I think there are two issues here. The first is one of degree: I don't think anyone would "cry havoc" for me buying a cd, burning it to my iTunes folder...

I would, but that is because I despise the iTunes software.

The RIAA and its allies are trying mightily to use government to prop up and subsidize a business model made obsolete by technology.  Kinda like the GM / union labor failed business model.

The more success the RIAA has, the longer it will take for new business models to spring up like Ford dealerships across the USA circa 1920.

What the pirate downloaders are doing is the equivalent to automobile owners' disregarding some of the anti-auto laws* passed with the help of those industries which were to be replaced by auto industries. 

Yes, they are breaking the law and yes, the dying industry is taking even more losses.  But, it won't get better until gov't comes to grip with the new reality and (more importantly) the RIAA side runs out of money to buy its way with Congress.




* Red Flag Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_Act

Quote
The Locomotive Act (also known as the Red Flag Act) is a reference to the Locomotives Act 1865 introduced by the British parliament as one of a series of measures to control the use of mechanically propelled vehicles on British public highways during the latter part of the 19th century. This act required any motorised vehicle to be preceded by a man with a red flag.
...
The Locomotive Act 1865 (Red Flag Act):

    * Set speed limits of 4 mph (6 km/h) in the country and 2 mph (3 km/h) in towns.
    * Stipulated that self-propelled vehicles should be accompanied by a crew of three: the driver, a stoker and a man with a red flag walking 60 yards (55 m) ahead of each vehicle. The man with a red flag or lantern enforced a walking pace, and warned horse riders and horse drawn traffic of the approach of a self propelled machine.
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Nick1911

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2009, 03:58:19 PM »
I was replying to this aspect of the discussion:

Quote
Monkey,

If I buy something once why should I have to buy it a second time?  Why should I not be able to copy it so long as I do not distribute or make money from it?

Yea, I see that - I still don't think it's a valid comparison.

So I buy a laptop computer from dell.  I load up iTunes and buy "Backstreet Boys - Incomplete". One week later, my machine's hard disk unfortunately gets destroyed by multiple .308's through my backpack while in a shopping mall.  I am unharmed due to the ceramic trauma plates I tactically duct taped to myself with black duct tape.

My machine's hard disk is ruined.  If I don't have a service plan, I can't reasonably expect the company I bought it from the replace it.  They would incur a significant cost from this - the raw materials, labor, shipping etc that go into making a disk.  If I shoplift a new hard drive, I deprive the store of the sale of that drive.  That's what theft is: depriving someone the use of their property.

But, does my hard disk being destroyed mean that I no longer hold valid license to enjoy "Incomplete"?  If I replace my disk, and download another copy off TPB, am I a criminal?  Why or why not?  What if I had a copy on my desktop computer?  Does me downloading a copy deprive Backstreet Boys of a potential sale?  I submit that: No, I already own a license to it.

There's a difference between tangible goods and intangible intellectual property.  Directly comparing the two will lead to faulty logic.