US Navy illegally searching civilian computers

[Balog]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/09/court-blasts-us-navy-for-scanning-civilians-computers-for-child-porn/

Troubling in a number of ways, not the least of which is that a child pornographer is getting away because of the illegality of the search.

[RevDisk]

I regularly get drunk with NCIS agents at Defcon and whatnot. They tend to be "cyber warfare", "IEW", "Digital Forsenics", "Linux Users" or whatever the hip term is these days for NCIS folks that know how to boot a PC.

They are actually federal law enforcement officers, and go through FLETC. FLETC is also commonly called "Glynco" in the series Justified. They legally can arrest anyone they see violating the law. But officially and unofficially they are told to stay in their lane. I'm not sure how this will impact their authority and responsibility. If they see a crime in progress while conducting routine "in their lane" matters, will they be able to intervene or not?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

That assumes this case is over.

3 0 means there is still enbanc plus scotus


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[Balog]

I regularly get drunk with NCIS agents at Defcon and whatnot. They tend to be "cyber warfare", "IEW", "Digital Forsenics", "Linux Users" or whatever the hip term is these days for NCIS folks that know how to boot a PC.

They are actually federal law enforcement officers, and go through FLETC. FLETC is also commonly called "Glynco" in the series Justified. They legally can arrest anyone they see violating the law. But officially and unofficially they are told to stay in their lane. I'm not sure how this will impact their authority and responsibility. If they see a crime in progress while conducting routine "in their lane" matters, will they be able to intervene or not?

Pretty sure their lane does not include anyone who is using Gnutella.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Depends on what they were looking for. I suspect it wasn't their core investigation. And courts have ruled on the validity of crimes uncovered by accident being prosecuted. I think that may be where this one ends up


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[KD5NRH]

Depends on what they were looking for. I suspect it wasn't their core investigation. And courts have ruled on the validity of crimes uncovered by accident being prosecuted. I think that may be where this one ends up

IMO, it also depends on what they're looking for.  Classified .mil info, I could see accidental discoveries being covered, in part because it would have originated from somewhere they clearly have jurisdiction over and they've just intercepted the trail at another point.  Kiddie porn in civilian hands really isn't their problem to go nosing into...unless the Feds are producing that now too.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

But as was noted they can't ignore a real crime they stumble upon . I wonder why they were in the streaming site


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[Sergeant Bob]

I regularly get drunk with NCIS agents at Defcon and whatnot. They tend to be "cyber warfare", "IEW", "Digital Forsenics", "Linux Users" or whatever the hip term is these days for NCIS folks that know how to boot a PC.

They are actually federal law enforcement officers, and go through FLETC. FLETC is also commonly called "Glynco" in the series Justified. They legally can arrest anyone they see violating the law. But officially and unofficially they are told to stay in their lane. I'm not sure how this will impact their authority and responsibility. If they see a crime in progress while conducting routine "in their lane" matters, will they be able to intervene or not?

I've been wondering what jurisdiction NCIS actually had. I watch "NCIS" and I thought they had an awful lot of power for being "Naval" CIS.

[TommyGunn]

I've been wondering what jurisdiction NCIS actually had. I watch "NCIS" and I thought they had an awful lot of power for being "Naval" CIS.

TV SHOW ≠ reality.  

[Sergeant Bob]

TV SHOW ≠ reality. 

They are actually federal law enforcement officers, and go through FLETC. FLETC is also commonly called "Glynco" in the series Justified. They legally can arrest anyone they see violating the law.

This is to which I am referring.

[RevDisk]

I've been wondering what jurisdiction NCIS actually had. I watch "NCIS" and I thought they had an awful lot of power for being "Naval" CIS.

Any Navy or Marine property or people

But they also can be on task forces. Said task forces have the jurisdiction of all member agencies.

[MechAg94]

So was the Navy searching his computer or the file sharing traffic through their network?  

It seems to me that if they had rules about using that sort of file sharing service, they might have been able to use that to justify searching.  I guess they would have to figure out what was being shared first.

[Balog]

Any Navy or Marine property or people

But they also can be on task forces. Said task forces have the jurisdiction of all member agencies.

Interesting, I did not know that.

So was the Navy searching his computer or the file sharing traffic through their network? 

It seems to me that if they had rules about using that sort of file sharing service, they might have been able to use that to justify searching.  I guess they would have to figure out what was being shared first.

My understanding is that they were merely looking at the files he was making publicly available via the sharing app. I actually don't have a problem with that part, just with .mil cops indiscriminately searching civilian matters. But given Rev's comment on jurisdictional sharing via task force, that may not be an issue.

[RevDisk]

Interesting, I did not know that.

Yep. Task forces are pretty common these days. At least on the IT side of the federal government. And drugs. The two are highly related, obviously.

My understanding is that they were merely looking at the files he was making publicly available via the sharing app. I actually don't have a problem with that part, just with .mil cops indiscriminately searching civilian matters. But given Rev's comment on jurisdictional sharing via task force, that may not be an issue.

Yea. At the risk of sounding like a fed apologist, there's a difference between searching private property and essentially listening to someone blaring incriminating evidence with a bullhorn at random folks passing by. With torrents, you're advertising the files available for download to the public internet.

This could have easily been a Navy/USMC laptop being on the same torrent as the civvie dude. Or a Navy/USMC laptop downloading from or to the civvie. And CP is mandatory reporting. There's a thousand ways the NCIS guy could have legitimately come across the torrent and report it.

I'm honestly not kosher with military, aside from the Coast Guard, having civilian law enforcement authority. But this isn't a significant overreach. This is more akin to an MP finding a pot farm just off base property rather than the NSA (a military organization) conducting illegal wiretapping of the entire country.

Only tool used was an open source Java torrent client, used to see data that the client machines publicly provide.

[Ben]

I don't think it even has to be a task force. It can be a reciprocity MOA involving other federal and even state agencies, and everyone has cross-jurisdictional enforcement authority. NCIS also has other missions, such as strategic support (i.e., intelligence/Counter-Intelligence) that could have led to an agent stumbling across this while looking for other info, and then having a duty, as an LEO, to report it.

[MechAg94]

I tend to agree with Rev.  If the program was just browsing files shared on a torrent (especially across a govt network), I can't see this as the same as invading your computer to look at what files you have.  To me it is almost the difference between a pot plant in the back room versus one in the front lawn.  It is sort of in plain view at that point.  Makes me think the judge is grand standing a bit or doesn't understand it.

[Balog]

I tend to agree with Rev.  If the program was just browsing files shared on a torrent (especially across a govt network), I can't see this as the same as invading your computer to look at what files you have.  To me it is almost the difference between a pot plant in the back room versus one in the front lawn.  It is sort of in plain view at that point.  Makes me think the judge is grand standing a bit or doesn't understand it.

I think the objection was more to the jurisdiction of the agent than to the search itself.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm all for any federal agency being reminded to "stay in their lane." Sharing information properly obtained in the course of navigating in their lane with other agencies with jurisdiction over the information is one thing. (Such as the much ballyhooed but non-existent "cooperation" between the FBI and the CIA.) For the military to be engaging in broad stroke surveillance of civilians is unacceptable.

I'm disappointed in Judge O'Scannlain -- he's usually better.