Author Topic: Pinochet dies aged 91  (Read 3301 times)

Iain

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Pinochet dies aged 91
« on: December 10, 2006, 12:52:53 PM »
Chile's former military leader Augusto Pinochet has died in hospital aged 91. He had been thought to be recovering after a heart attack a week ago.

Gen Pinochet came to power in a 1973 coup. His 17-year rule saw more than 3,000 people killed or "disappeared".

He was accused of dozens of human rights abuses as well as fraud, but never faced trial due to poor health.

No state funeral or national mourning has been authorised. He will be buried with military honours on Tuesday.

"The government has authorised flags to fly at half-mast at army facilities," government spokesman Ricardo Lagos Weber said.

continued at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6167237.stm

Also - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6167351.stm
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Fly320s

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2006, 04:32:59 PM »
Two things which bug me:

1.  Why honor the murderer?

2.  Just because he was in poor health is no reason to forgo prosecution.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2006, 04:37:37 PM »
Good riddance, I suppose.

K Frame

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2006, 05:05:35 PM »
I hope he and Pol Pot are rotting in hell together.

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sumpnz

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 06:28:07 PM »
As Standing Wolf would say, No tyrant deserves a peaceful death.  May he rot in hell (unless he repented and came to Christ).

Cosmoline

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 12:17:57 AM »
Maybe Castro will join him soon and they can tango till they're sore. 

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 12:46:23 AM »
Yeah, I'd be much happier to see Castro hit the dirt.  Can't he do the world a favor and die already?

The Rabbi

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2006, 04:38:38 AM »
Sorry not to join in the Schadenfreude.  Yes, Pinochet committed some serious human rights abuses.  But he also brought in "the Chicago Boys", a bunch of economists trained by Milton Friedman, and restored some economic stability to the place.
Castro is just a thug.
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roo_ster

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 07:55:32 AM »
OK, I'll be the turd in the punchbowl by stating that Chile would not be in such good shape today (economically and with an actual, funcitoning, liberal democracy) were it not for Pinochet, his authoritarian regime, his market economy policies, and all the unpleasantness that went with it.

Pinochet is the former authoritarian leftists love to hate.  He was much less nasty than any number of marxist/leftist dictators that the lefties swoon over, but he had one major & unconscienable defect:  he booted out the marxists and made a success of his country.  For that, he will never be forgiven.

If we mosey on down the strand of time back to 1973, what do we see?  Every south & central american country was a mess of coups and corruption.  Communism was on the march.  Like the muslims in the middle east today, there was no evidence that they could maintain a stable, liberal democracy on thier own.

Chile had just elected it own Hugo Chavez/Fidel Castro in Allende and had a similar nightmare of marxist totalitarianism and dysfunction on the horizon.  I would put forth that Pinochet was analogous to Spain's Francisco Franco: a bastard, bit not nearly as nasty a bastard as the alternatives Chile faced.

Pinochet managed to do what the former colonial powers were spectacular failures at: take a society with no history, culture, or record of liberal democracy and set up a stable, liberal, fairly decent democratic form of government.

To sum up, Pinochet did it the right way:
1. Create a stable, secure environment.
2. Build up the market economy by getting gov't out of the way and not penalizing the successful
3. Using the proceeds of the growing economy to educate the formerly sand-poundingly ignorant
4. Gradually liberalize the functions and form of gov't
5. Finally, after the ducks are all lined up, have folks vote for their government

Somewhat different from the way in which GWB's administration has approached Iraq.
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Cosmoline

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 11:50:58 AM »
Quote
1. Create a stable, secure environment.
2. Build up the market economy by getting gov't out of the way and not penalizing the successful
3. Using the proceeds of the growing economy to educate the formerly sand-poundingly ignorant
4. Gradually liberalize the functions and form of gov't
5. Finally, after the ducks are all lined up, have folks vote for their government

Ha!  So our own Founders did it the wrong way by introducing the vote instead of appointing Washington as the new King for life?  You're neck deep in the bravo sierra.  Pinochet was the flip side of the same coin that has Chavez and Castro on the other side.  These guys are all rotten to the core, and the excuses that get made for their anti-democratic machinations are laughable.  Defending Pinochet because of the economic reforms is no different from the leftist scum who defend Castro for his great health care system. 


The Rabbi

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 12:10:51 PM »
No, it's considerably different.  Pinochet made a huge difference in the life of the average Chilean for the better.  You never saw Chileans defecting en masse for the U.S on flimsy boats.  And most importantly, he turned over power when his work was done.  I don't see Castro doing that.
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Cosmoline

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 12:20:33 PM »
He "turned over power"  grin   Yeah after decades of crushing anyone who challenged him and under enormous pressure he allowed a vote and was ousted, but only left after ensuring he'd remain in charge of the military and get appointed "Senator for Life."  You people are as blind as the people who apologize for the Beard. 

Quote
You never saw Chileans defecting en masse for the U.S on flimsy boats

You never saw Chileans at all after they criticized Pinochet. 

The facts that Pinochet's economic policies were sound and Castro has set up a good health care system don't excuse either of them.  Both will rot in hell, along with anyone who supported them. 

richyoung

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2006, 12:25:56 PM »
No, it's considerably different.  Pinochet made a huge difference in the life of the average Chilean for the better.  You never saw Chileans defecting en masse for the U.S on flimsy boats.  And most importantly, he turned over power when his work was done.  I don't see Castro doing that.

Well, i guess Satan will be riding a snowmobile to work tomorrow, ... I agree with Rabbi.  Funny how only RIGHT-wing dictators are reviled, when they have a much better track record of liberalization than LEFTIES do...
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The Rabbi

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2006, 12:38:29 PM »
No, it's considerably different.  Pinochet made a huge difference in the life of the average Chilean for the better.  You never saw Chileans defecting en masse for the U.S on flimsy boats.  And most importantly, he turned over power when his work was done.  I don't see Castro doing that.

Well, i guess Satan will be riding a snowmobile to work tomorrow, ... I agree with Rabbi.  Funny how only RIGHT-wing dictators are reviled, when they have a much better track record of liberalization than LEFTIES do...

I think you commented before on how we probably agree on more issues than we disagree on.
Taking a page from Reagan, were Chileans better off after Pinochet or before?  Are Cubans better off now than before?  Are Venezualans better off now or before Chavez took power?
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Eleven Mike

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2006, 12:39:29 PM »
The Beard? 

Rabbi, jfruser, richyoung,

Would I be correct in saying that you hold Pinochet accountable for his misdeeds, but you give him credit for what he did right?  Or are you saying that Pinochet was probably better than anyone else that, realistically, might have ruled in his place?

The Rabbi

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 12:43:18 PM »
El Massimo Lider, aka Fidel Castro.

I guess we're too blind to recognize obvious differences between Pinochet and Castro and their rules.
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BryanP

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2006, 12:48:05 PM »
Quote
To sum up, Pinochet did it the right way:
1. Create a stable, secure environment.
2. Build up the market economy by getting gov't out of the way and not penalizing the successful
3. Using the proceeds of the growing economy to educate the formerly sand-poundingly ignorant
4. Gradually liberalize the functions and form of gov't
5. Finally, after the ducks are all lined up, have folks vote for their government


You skipped two steps.

0.5.    Overthrow a democratically elected government.
0.75.   Round up dissidents and have them "disappeared."   

But hey, he did it for all the right reasons.  Omelettes and eggs and all that.

A friend of mine has a (now deceased) uncle who was a university professor when Pinochet came to power.  He was one of the few who realized what was going to happen.  He warned his friends (most of whom didn't think it would go that far), sold everything, bought a boat and a bunch of supplies, packed up his family and worked his way up the South American coastline until he got to the US.  It wasn't easy but he made it.   He tried contacting his friends later.  Quite a few had been disappeared by the Pinochet govt.

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Cosmoline

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2006, 03:04:21 PM »
Dictatorship is itself the highest form of treason.  But a lot of people, esp. those in the US who have never experienced it, view it as a convenient means to an end. 

Quote
I guess we're too blind to recognize obvious differences between Pinochet and Castro and their rules.

There is no difference.  Dictators are dictators, no matter how you wrap them up.  There are no good ones.  The act of supplanting your personal will by force over that of every other citizen is worse than a lifetime of murder and rape.  It's the ultimate form of rape, and can never be excused.  You can find a lot of folks who disagree with my position over on First Ave. in NYC, but then again they're on the payrolls of the world's dictators. 

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2006, 03:19:40 PM »
It is reported 3000 people were murdered or disappeared during his tenure.

A piker as far as dictators go. With all the brouhaha about him I expected to see bigger numbers.

Give him credit for his good works, doesn't change the fact he apparently is a mass murderer.

Of course his free market reforms make him a worse despot than any "misunderstood" communist dictator, at least to the media/leftists.

The Rabbi

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2006, 05:58:04 PM »
Dictatorship is itself the highest form of treason.  But a lot of people, esp. those in the US who have never experienced it, view it as a convenient means to an end. 

Quote
I guess we're too blind to recognize obvious differences between Pinochet and Castro and their rules.

There is no difference.  Dictators are dictators, no matter how you wrap them up.  There are no good ones.  The act of supplanting your personal will by force over that of every other citizen is worse than a lifetime of murder and rape.  It's the ultimate form of rape, and can never be excused.  You can find a lot of folks who disagree with my position over on First Ave. in NYC, but then again they're on the payrolls of the world's dictators. 

So you are saying that being a dictator, regardless of one's actions, is worse than ending the actual lives of many innocent people and/or rendering those lives emotional and physical wrecks?  Hello?  Who is the dogmatist here?
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LAK

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2006, 12:38:15 AM »
Agusto Pinochet had been accused of many things. All unproven - and look who the accusations came from.

What he most certainly did was, at least temporarily, oust the stinking perverted murdering thieving communists from power. And, again at least temporarily, rescue Chileans from certain financial ruin the way all communist countries go - and stop the thieving perverts from stealing their property.

Good riddance Mr Allende and co.

Rest in peace Augusto Pinochet.

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roo_ster

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2006, 02:51:51 AM »
Quote
1. Create a stable, secure environment.
2. Build up the market economy by getting gov't out of the way and not penalizing the successful
3. Using the proceeds of the growing economy to educate the formerly sand-poundingly ignorant
4. Gradually liberalize the functions and form of gov't
5. Finally, after the ducks are all lined up, have folks vote for their government

Ha!  So our own Founders did it the wrong way by introducing the vote instead of appointing Washington as the new King for life?  You're neck deep in the bravo sierra.  ...Defending Pinochet because of the economic reforms is no different from the leftist scum who defend Castro for his great health care system.
Pay attention to what folks write, not what your indignation tells you what they write.

Augusto Pinochet was no George Washington and 1973's Chile was no reincarnation of the 13 Colonies. 

Chile had no history, practice, or culture of decent, liberal representative government.  Like the rest of the region, it was all strongmen dictatorships, all the time with some marxism tossed in for chaos' sake.  Having the Chileans vote at that time would have been about as effective as having Iraqis vote 1 1/2 years after toppling Saddam's regime.  Purple fingers might make goot PR, but does little more than elevate form (the act of voting) over substance (decent governance in a secure, fairly liberal, and market-friendly environment).

Helping the market economy repair and build itself is not the reason Pinochet was a better leader than Castro, it was part of the total package of policies that lead to a relatively prosperous country with a market economy and liberal democracy.  It is a real, measureable, thing, whereas Castro's trumpeted health care system pretty much amounts to, "the same crappy care for (most) all Cuban serfs."

What so many folks do not understand is that liberal governance does not transplant well.  The customs, attitudes, and loyalties must be learned over time in a secure and economically viable environment.  Liberating ignorant, tribalistic campesinos or hajis one day and having them vote the next is a recipie for chaos and faction.

Quote from: Cosmo
Dictators are dictators, no matter how you wrap them up.
Read a bit about the difference between authoritarian & totalitarian.  Similar != Same.

The Beard? 

Rabbi, jfruser, richyoung,

Would I be correct in saying that you hold Pinochet accountable for his misdeeds, but you give him credit for what he did right?  Or are you saying that Pinochet was probably better than anyone else that, realistically, might have ruled in his place?
11M:

Yes to both.  No doubt, Pinochet was an authoritarian at the beginning of his reign and did his level best to butter the bread favorably after he left power.  One reason the lefties despise him is that a goodly proportion of the folks he & his regime was responsible for killing were marxist revolutionaries.  If Pinochet was a marxist himself who killed Adam Smith & Milton Friedman cloned free-market counter-revolutionaries, the lefties would have haoled him as wonderful a guy as Castro.

Like I stated above, Chile was not ready for the forms of liberal democracy.  Not even a spanish-speaking George Washington could have transformed the place instantaneously into a stable, liberal democracy with a stable market economy.


Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Iain

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2006, 08:48:39 AM »
Hmmm, well to be honest I half expected this thread to take this turn.

Of course I'm with Cosmoline in that I let the perfect be the enemy of the good, in this case though desiring a form of government that is democratic and not run by a murdering authoritarian thug isn't exactly demanding perfection, and Pinochet was a long way from 'good'.

Doesn't matter how close to ideological purity he was, how near to our preferred economic wishes - I'm a little disappointed to find that those who would decry communism and all those 'eggs' that many commies seem to think need cracking will accept the same (with the provisio that this was on a much smaller scale, because that makes it so much better) as long as the 'right' goals and ends are being sought. And of course hardcore marxists don't have human rights...

Some are making some interesting points about the birth of democracy, and this can be done without defending Pinochet's record on human rights.

As for the strawman that says that those of us who decry Pinochet only go after right-wing dictators? Childish, but fully satisfies the prejudices of those who make that argument.
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roo_ster

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2006, 09:44:38 AM »
Iain:

I would suggest some more familiarity with the context of the events.

Chilean Context:
Augusto Pinochet was a tragic figure. Instead of being remembered for saving Chilean democracy from a communist takeover, and starting the country on the longest-lasting economic expansion in Latin America, which he did, he will be remembered mostly for carrying out a brutal campaign of human-rights abuses.

Contrary to revisionist history and mainstream media myths, Pinochets military coup against President Salvador Allende was supported by a majority of Chileans, two-thirds of whom had voted against Allende in the 1970 election. The three-way electoral tie had been decided by the Chilean Congress in favor of Allende. By 1973, however, Chileans were demonstrating in the streets against shortages, inflation and unemployment brought about by Allendes failed socialist policies.

Facing widespread opposition to his rule, Allende secretly prepared a self-coup, with the help of Fidel Castro, who surreptitiously sent large quantities of weapons to arm Allendes minority of supporters. Army Commander Pinochet beat Allende to the coup, which was justified by the Allende-Castro plans. What was not justified was the bloodbath which followed, when Allende supporters and innocents alike were summarily executed, imprisoned and tortured, including loyal military officers who disagreed with the coup.

Today, thanks to the KGB files smuggled out of Russia by Vasily Mitrokhin, we know that Allende was receiving payments from the KGB. There is no doubt that if he had succeeded in his plans, Chile today would be an impoverished Communist prison like Cuba, instead of a shining example of democracy and prosperity. With some compassion and self-discipline, Pinochet could have been remembered as a liberator and not a despot. He was both.

 Otto J. Reich served President Bush from 2001 to 2004, first as assistant secretary of State for the Western Hemisphere and later in the National Security Council. He now heads his own international government-relations firm in Washington.

World Context:
"Cold War" mean anything to folks 'round here?  The existential struggle between liberal, consentual civilization and totalitarian marxism?

Maybe not.




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roo_ster

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Iain

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Re: Pinochet dies aged 91
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2006, 10:13:16 AM »
Fully understand the context. Being anti-communist is not an excuse for anything. It is certainly not an excuse for despotism, summary 'disappearances' and executions and the rest. Even if a coup is supported by the public that is no sanction for totalitarianism and bloodletting.

Not sure that Pinochet was as tragic as his victims were.

From what I can find the election wasn't a tie, it was a win with a plurality decided by the Chilean Congress. That's how the system worked.
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