Author Topic: Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.  (Read 13903 times)

Desertdog

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There may be a few that agree with the judge, but many will agree with the students.  That's life.  I welcome the students standing up to the ACLU, judge and the one student that tried to to change a tradition at the school.  I am not saying the plaintif was worried but according to the video there were troopers there and the student that started this had somebody with him at all times; maybe a bodyguard?

Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation

May 19, 2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=4928301
 
 
RUSSELL SPRINGS, Ky. (AP) - The senior class at a southern Kentucky high school gave their response Friday night to a federal judge's order banning prayer at commencement.
About 200 seniors stood during the principal's opening remarks and began reciting the Lord's Prayer, prompting a standing ovation from a standing-room only crowd at the Russell County High School gymnasium.
The thunderous applause drowned out the last part of the prayer.
The revival like atmosphere continued when senior Megan Chapman said in her opening remarks that God had guided her since childhood. Chapman was interrupted repeatedly by the cheering crowd as she urged her classmates to trust in God as they go through life.
The challenge made the graduation even better because it unified the senior class, Chapman said.
"It made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out," said Chapman, who plans to attend the University of the Cumberlands with her twin sister Megan.
The graduation took place about 12 hours after a federal judge blocked the inclusion of prayer as part of Russell County High School's graduation ceremonies.
U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley granted a temporary restraining order sought by a student who didn't want prayer to be part of the graduation exercises at the south-central Kentucky school, about 110 miles southeast of Louisville.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky filed suit on behalf of the unidentified student on Tuesday.
ACLU attorney Lili Lutgens said she was pleased with the judge's order and "very proud of my client for standing up for the Constitution." Lutgens said prayer would be unconstitutional because it would endorse a specific religion and religious views.
"He did not feel that he should have to sit through government-sponsored prayer just to receive his diploma," Lutgens said of the student.
The student, through his attorney, had previously appealed to Russell County High principal Darren Gossage to cancel the prayer, a request Lutgens said the principal denied.
Keith Ellis, an assistant principal at Russell County High School, said the school has a long tradition of prayer at graduation, something that will change with the judge's ruling.
"It will definitely change what we've done in the past," Ellis said.
Russell County School Superintendent Scott Pierce called himself a "person of faith" and said he was pleased with the response to the ruling by the senior class.
"This was a good learning process for them as far as how to handle things that come along in life," Pierce said. The response of the students showed an ability to be "critical thinkers."
"They exhibited what we've tried to accomplish in 12 years of education - they have the ability to make these compelling decisions on their own," Pierce said.
Chapman said the ceremony turned out better than it would have without the controversy.
"More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to," Chapman said.
Before the graduation ceremony, some students said they weren't upset with the classmate that brought the legal challenge, just disappointed that there wouldn't be a sanctioned prayer during the ceremony.
"There's no hard feelings toward him whatsoever. That was his opinion and it was something that he felt," graduating senior Mandy Chapman said.
Gabe McNeil said during a rehearsal on Thursday, other students booed the student suspected of filing the challenge when he walked across the stage.
"They've been giving him crap," McNeil said.
A sign across the street from the high school at a garden center declared "We believe in prayer" in response to the judge's ruling.
"In our little town, we've always had that prayer at commencement," said Brenda Hadley, owner of Anna's Garden. "Why not? That's part of our everyday life."
Garden center employee Angela Dick put up the sign. Dick said student prayer has always been a way of life at commencements in the rural county that bumps up against Lake Cumberland, a popular recreation area.
"I'm disappointed in a judge who won't hold up the Christian values that our country was founded on," said Dick, who was wearing a gold cross on a chain around her neck.

garyk/nm

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2006, 03:31:31 PM »
Good for them!!!
In your face, ACLU. This whole anti-religion thing has gone way off the deep end.

InfidelSerf

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2006, 03:53:25 PM »
Kudos to Ms. Chapman and the rest of the class.
The hour is fast approaching,on which the Honor&Success of this army,and the safety of our bleeding Country depend.Remember~Soldiers,that you are Freemen,fighting for the blessings of Liberty-that slavery will be your portion,and that of your posterity,if you do not acquit yourselves like men.GW8/76

Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2006, 04:34:51 PM »
Did the students really stand up to the judge?  I am assuming the judge's ruling was against a prayer by teachers or administrators.  If the student's wanted to do things right, they could have had the valedictorian pray before his/her speech, or invite a minister to pray for them.  

Quote
"He did not feel that he should have to sit through government-sponsored prayer just to receive his diploma," Lutgens said of the student.
When I was in active duty, we got a "safety briefing" every Friday afternoon, urging us to behave ourselves over the weekend.  This usually included the admonition to use a condom.  I suppose by the logic of the judge's ruling, this was unacceptable, as it would have offended the religious beliefs of conservative Catholic soldiers.
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Nightfall

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2006, 05:26:12 PM »
I imagine the ruling was that the school officials, whom are government officials, could not include a prayer in the planned school wide event. NOT that the students could not pray by themselves or together, or during acceptance speeches, etc. In other words, barring the officials from making all students sit through a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony. If that is the case, the ruling seems perfectly just to me.
It is difficult if not impossible to reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. - 230RN

roo_ster

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2006, 05:29:31 PM »
I have no problems with tolerance, but when did our tolerance get turned into a veto to be exercised by the tolerated?
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2006, 07:26:02 PM »
OK, Nightfall, but if the students request a local clergyman to pray, then the school officials should plan for that, right?  Plan to allow five minutes for Reverend Smith to pray, I mean.
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Nightfall

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2006, 07:41:11 PM »
For the official graduation ceremony? No. Make allowances at student request for for a clergyman to lead a prayer with students who wish to attend, seperately from the ceremony itself? Sure.
It is difficult if not impossible to reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. - 230RN

grampster

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2006, 08:48:10 PM »
The trouble sometimes is that folks don't look at the what the judge says.  What we decide to do as individuals, even in a group, are not dictated to by law.  We have an understanding that we may do as we wish within agreed upon parameters.  The test always remains in having the courage to do what we are guaranteed the right to do.

Mostly, a careful reading of law will show that we can in fact do as we wish.  Sometimes we will be called into account for our decisions.  That is part of the exhileration of being free.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2006, 03:30:32 AM »
I have often been asked by employers to pray, in a way that is completely inconsistant with my religious beliefs and which I consider blasphemous. So, then what? I just block them out and do my own thinking and praying during that time but it pisses me off every time I have to do it. People's religious beliefs are their own business and other people's shouldn't be forced on them.

Ron

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 05:05:37 AM »
This is just one of the problems with government run schools.

Privatize the education system.

Minimum standards set by the government for English, mathematics history etc..

Every school could then have a mission statement that would spell out the world view that they ascribe to in their curriculum and practices.

Werewolf

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 05:51:47 AM »
Civil Disobedience? Maybe - maybe not! Regardless I say hoorah for those 200 who stood up for what they believed in defiance of crackbrained authority.
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Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2006, 03:43:35 AM »
Quote from: Nightfall
For the official graduation ceremony? No. Make allowances at student request for for a clergyman to lead a prayer with students who wish to attend, seperately from the ceremony itself? Sure.
Why?  Would that not be "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion?  You want govt. "officials" to tell students that they may not practice religion at their own graduation ceremony?  You have agreed that students can pray at the podium, yet you wouldn't allow someone to pray on their behalf?  Why?

The statement from the ACLU attorney is rather amusing; "He did not feel that he should have to sit through government-sponsored prayer just to receive his diploma."  But he doesn't mind sitting through all the other prattling and moralizing and sentimental nonsense in the speeches?
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Waitone

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2006, 09:08:30 AM »
Push back
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

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SteveS

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 01:19:06 PM »
Quote from: Nightfall
I imagine the ruling was that the school officials, whom are government officials, could not include a prayer in the planned school wide event. NOT that the students could not pray by themselves or together, or during acceptance speeches, etc. In other words, barring the officials from making all students sit through a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony. If that is the case, the ruling seems perfectly just to me.
I can't think of the cases off the top of my head, but previous rulings have said that student initiated prayers at public schools are not allowed.  

There is always going to be a certain amount of tension between what some consider government sponsoring of religion and free exercise of religion.
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gaston_45

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 01:50:00 PM »
"Why?  Would that not be "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion?  You want govt. "officials" to tell students that they may not practice religion at their own graduation ceremony?  You have agreed that students can pray at the podium, yet you wouldn't allow someone to pray on their behalf?  Why?"

Fistful, which god did they pray to?  Christian? Muslim?  One of the dozens of Hindu gods?  Should the graduation be held up for hours while they pray to each god that one of the students may pray to, or should they keep the GRADUATION ceremony what it is...  A graduation ceremony, not a religious ceremony.  

I agree with nightfall, want to pray? fine, do it before or after but don't hold up everyone elses graduation due to your personally held superstitions.

Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 02:33:54 PM »
SteveS, I can't think of the cases of the top of my head, either, but so long as students are having chess clubs and other extracurricular activities, prayer and bible study are also allowed by current law and by the Constitution itself.  I'm not sure how this applies to school-wide events, though.

gaston, I hope we can discuss this without further disparaging remarks, such as labeling religion as superstition.  If the majority of the community under discussion is as religious as it seems to be, there is no reason why prayer would not be part of a graduation ceremony.  This is a case where the majority can be heeded without harming the minority, so why not?  Not everyone is going to agree on the details of the ceremony.  How is an atheist hurt by a prayer to a non-existent God that his foolish classmates mindlessly pay homage to?  He has to sit quietly for a few minutes?  Well, graduation is one of those stupid formalities that require such things.  

I still don't get the whole scene.  You graduated from high school.  Good for you.  That puts you in, what, the top 80-85% of the nation?  Whatever the number is, congratulations.
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Nightfall

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 02:34:19 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Why?  Would that not be "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion?
No, theyre still free to pray. There is a difference between you exercising your religion, and making other people adjust their time (in this case the ceremony) to your religion.
Quote from: fistful
You want govt. "officials" to tell students that they may not practice religion at their own graduation ceremony?
Absolutely not. Those students should be free to pray, alone or collectively, all they want at the ceremony.
Quote from: fistful
You have agreed that students can pray at the podium, yet you wouldn't allow someone to pray on their behalf?  Why?
Again, were not talking about just personal comments from graduating students with podium time. Were talking about modifying a general ceremony for the sake of a specific religious sect. Would you be willing to add in time for a someone special to speak to the atheist students and praise them for their rejection of religion?
Quote from: SteveS
I can't think of the cases off the top of my head, but previous rulings have said that student initiated prayers at public schools are not allowed.
Which is wrong, if the students were praying in a non-disruptive manner.
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gaston_45

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 02:53:25 PM »
I'm sorry if you take it as a disparaging remark fistful, here is the definition of superstition directly from Webster's dictionary: "1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition".  

Either way, it is a graduation, not sunday put on your finest and go to meetin.  They are graduating from secular high school, not christian academy, chatecism, or any other religious schooling. It has nothing to do with squashing any budding monks or nuns in the school, it's a simple matter of expediency, there is not time for all religions to do their prayer thing so leave them all out of it.  That whole "if you don't have enough gum for everyone don't bring it to school thing".

Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 03:06:46 PM »
Quote from: Nightfall
Quote from: fistful
Why?  Would that not be "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion?
No, theyre still free to pray. There is a difference between you exercising your religion, and making other people adjust their time (in this case the ceremony) to your religion.
My religion?  No, the religion which apparently is practiced by the majority of the students.  In this case, it appears to be the atheist who demanded that others adjust the normal graduation ceremony to fit his beliefs.  There is a difference between you exercising your atheism (if you are one) and enlisting government force to preclude others from exercising their religion at a ceremony that apparently means a lot to some people.  

So you don't mind if a student leads a prayer during the ceremony, while standing at the podium, but if the students give some of their own speech time to a pastor/imam/rabbi/secular-humanist-ethicist that the student body invited, that would violate someone's rights?  

Practicing Christian and church deacon that I am, I personally would rather not listen to a prayer at graduation.  I'd rather not go at all.
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grampster

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2006, 04:01:29 PM »
Fistful hit the nail on the head.  On the one hand a group of folks would like a prayer. Another would not.  Ergo:  Someone is being, for lack of a better word, inconvenienced.  Why is it the minority view always seems to trump the majority in issues such as this?  I am bombarded daily with leftist,  neo liberal views, atheistic positions, animal rights views, PC, etc. etc. etc.,  that I don't agree with; some in public places.  Most of the time I quietly listen, I don't run off to the lawyer.  And sometimes, when I voice my opposition to the thought being expressed, I am often snotted on by the speaker who cloaks himself in the First A.  Well, what about my 1A rights as a believer.  The Constitition prohibits state required religion and guarantees no interference in the practice of religion.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If the officer of the secular school required adherence to the Christian faith as a requirement of graduation, or attendence at graduation, or required persons to pray a specific prayer out loud as a requirement; that is wrong.  To prohibit students from praying under any other circumstance, freely, if they wish is also wrong.

I for one am glad we have a Constitution and body of laws.  Why?  Because it is emminantly better to have people try to twist the obvious and sometime win, than to not have any obviousness because it would not be very pleasant  to live under the whim of whatever society thinks is cool at the moment, under pain of bad things happening to one.  

In my view, if a student is on the speaking agenda, he has been allocated some time.  If that student decided to say a prayer of thanksgiving, so what?  It's that student's moment to be used.  Common courtesy would seem to suggest that student has the prerogitive, as long as accepted decorum is observed.

Gaston:  As an aside, to throw in the word "superstition" while in an adult conversation especially about someone's faith,  tends to not be polite in my view.  Even the definition you quoted seems to bear out my comment judging from the definitions given: Ignorance; trust in magic; false conception; irrational abject attitude...I'm sure, upon reflection, perhaps one could argue a position from the negative side using other than insulting language; especially here amongst friends.
My comment to you is couched in respect and is in no way meant to be other than a respectful suggestion.
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Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2006, 06:25:59 PM »
Just so you know, gaston, it is usually taken as an insult to call someone's religion a "superstition," though I suppose some religions might fit your definition.  Imagine if I casually referred to atheists as "God-haters."  

Quote from: gaston_45
keep the GRADUATION ceremony what it is...  A graduation ceremony, not a religious ceremony.
I'm not sure a prayer is enough to make it a "religious ceremony."  Why not let the students, the school, the teachers, the administrators and parents decide what is necessary or desirable in their ceremony?  I would much rather endure one prayer that I didn't believe or participate in to four of five worthless speeches.  No one is suggesting that everyone have a prayer or ritual of their choosing, but it is not unreasonable for a prayer of the majority religion be offered by a person of the students' choosing.

Edited to add:  If half the student body is of another faith, let them have a prayer also.  We can be reasonable about this.  Oh, wait, what am I saying?  Reason is too much to ask for.

The desideratum is this: that government not be used as a club to interfere with religious practices.  As far as I can see, a prayer is not going to keep any atheists from their own beliefs.
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Nightfall

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2006, 06:35:00 PM »
Quote from: fistful
My religion?  No, the religion which apparently is practiced by the majority of the students.
Which means nothing. If the school had a majority of atheists, I wouldn't support making the minority of Christians sit thru a speech decrying religion before they could receive the diploma they earned. First, gov't should be offering no support to either side of the issue. Second, the ceremony and belief in "God" are unrelated.
Quote from: fistful
In this case, it appears to be the atheist who demanded that others adjust the normal graduation ceremony to fit his beliefs.
Perhaps he didn't understand why he should have to sit through time set aside by the gov't school specifically for praise of a deity, when the purpose of the ceremony was completely unrelated to any religious activity.  
Quote from: fistful
There is a difference between you exercising your atheism (if you are one) and enlisting government force to preclude others from exercising their religion at a ceremony that apparently means a lot to some people.
Again, we're not talking about precluding anyone from exercising their beliefs. We're talking about whether it's appropriate for a government school to set aside time for the worship of "God" when the activity is completely unrelated, and includes a participating audience with disparate beliefs.
Quote from: fistful
So you don't mind if a student leads a prayer during the ceremony, while standing at the podium, but if the students give some of their own speech time to a pastor/imam/rabbi/secular-humanist-ethicist that the student body invited, that would violate someone's rights?
I think that would be okay. If they gave time to speaking students to use as they wish, rather than specifically for themto speak, an invited speaker would be fine. That is different than adding time to a ceremony only for a religious figures use.
It is difficult if not impossible to reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. - 230RN

Winston Smith

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2006, 07:51:16 PM »
If someone tries to stop the ceremony to try to get everyone to talk to their invisible friend at my upcoming high school graduation I'm calling the funny farm and then bodily kicking them out to the waiting white-robed arms!
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Perd Hapley

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Judge Blocks Prayer at High School Graduation. Students still prayed.
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2006, 08:10:46 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
As for marriage, I think the only business the Gov't has is to issue the civil union portion which formalizes the legal status and tax benefits. The actual marriage part should be up to the individual churches to decide on.
How would that differ from the current situation?
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