ISIS is Bush's fault (or something like that)

[BobR]

Or as the POTUS says "an unintended consequence" of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Now that it has been said, I can sleep better. Before the suspense was getting to be too much to bear.

http://rt.com/usa/241325-obama-isis-iraq-bush/


bob

[De Selby]

How is this at all unreasonable to say?

The link between the Iraq war and the rise of ISIS is undeniable.  What he's leaving out is the equally important link between Obama policy on Libya and Syria and ISIS.

[BobR]

How much does Obama's policy to withdraw from Iraq play into the rise of ISIS? The US knew AQI was a problem in 2004 and was already fighting them. When the US left Iraq so the POTUS could say he did it, what kind of void do you think that left for this group to flourish?

bob

[De Selby]

How much does Obama's policy to withdraw from Iraq play into the rise of ISIS? The US knew AQI was a problem in 2004 and was already fighting them. When the US left Iraq so the POTUS could say he did it, what kind of void do you think that left for this group to flourish?

bob

You're forgetting that Obama tried to stay in Iraq - it was the Iraqis who wouldn't agree to immunity from local prosecutions that undid the deal.  I doubt Bush or anyone could've achieved otherwise while maintaining the pretense of a non-colonial enterprise.

A messy Iraq, politically dominated by Iranian clients, was nearly a foregone conclusion before the war started.

[wmenorr67]

How much does Obama's policy to withdraw from Iraq play into the rise of ISIS? The US knew AQI was a problem in 2004 and was already fighting them. When the US left Iraq so the POTUS could say he did it, what kind of void do you think that left for this group to flourish?

bob

You're forgetting that Obama tried to stay in Iraq - it was the Iraqis who wouldn't agree to immunity from local prosecutions that undid the deal.  I doubt Bush or anyone could've achieved otherwise while maintaining the pretense of a non-colonial enterprise.

A messy Iraq, politically dominated by Iranian clients, was nearly a foregone conclusion before the war started.

De Selby beat me to it.  Bush and Obama were all for leaving combat troops in Iraq if the Iraqi government (Maliki, the PM) had signed a SOFA.  Talabani, the President and a Kurd, tried to push them to sign it but since the power is with the PM it didn't get done.

[roo_ster]

Ds has a point.

If we have learned anything from screwing around in the middle east killing damnfool locals it is that the least vile and bloody sort of leadership that can be hoped for over there is a relatively secular dictator who keeps a lid on things by killing his own folk when they get frisky.

How many examples do we need?  Iraq syria egypt libya just not enough?

[De Selby]

Of all presidents since Kennedy, I think history will most  favour GH Bush.  The 100 day limit and "make an extreme example of anyone who defies you" approach would've served us well all over the world after September 11.  Instead there's a generation across the globe that thinks resisting American influence is the only way to avoid colonisation.

George Bush was in every way the last true statesman of the 20th century.  Maybe that's why he only got one term.

[wmenorr67]

Of all presidents since Kennedy, I think history will most  favour GH Bush.  The 100 day limit and "make an extreme example of anyone who defies you" approach would've served us well all over the world after September 11.  Instead there's a generation across the globe that thinks resisting American influence is the only way to avoid colonisation.

George Bush was in every way the last true statesman of the 20th century.  Maybe that's why he only got one term.

That and saying something about no new taxes and then Congress screwing him.

[roo_ster]

That and saying something about no new taxes and then Congress screwing him.

No one made GHWB go back on his word but GHWB himself.  Anyone who has read the story of the frog and the scorpion knew what Congress was going to do.  GHWB could have won in 1992 had he not urinated on the conservative base of the GOP and gave Ross Perot's issues some love. 
1. Dump on your base by going back on your word.
2. Screw the working and middle classes with NAFTA.
3.
4. POTUS!

We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. It's pretty simple: If you're paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor,...have no health care—that's the most expensive single element in making a car— have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south.
    ...when [Mexico's] jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it's leveled again. But in the meantime, you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals.

[MechAg94]

No one made GHWB go back on his word but GHWB himself.  Anyone who has read the story of the frog and the scorpion knew what Congress was going to do.  GHWB could have won in 1992 had he not urinated on the conservative base of the GOP and gave Ross Perot's issues some love. 
1. Dump on your base by going back on your word.
2. Screw the working and middle classes with NAFTA.
3.
4. POTUS!

Didn't Bush piss off the gun owners also?

I believe Clinton won with 43% of the vote and Bush got 42%.  Had he not ticked off his own voters, he could easily have been a two term President. 

Also, remember that Bush Sr. was NOT a Reagan Conservative.  He didn't agree with Reagan's enonomic policies.  I believe I heard it pointed out that every Republican candidate since Reagan was opposed to Reagan's enonmic policies.  Only W. Bush was reelected and I think that is due to his bad opponent and foreign policy issues.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You're forgetting that Obama tried to stay in Iraq - it was the Iraqis who wouldn't agree to immunity from local prosecutions that undid the deal.  I doubt Bush or anyone could've achieved otherwise while maintaining the pretense of a non-colonial enterprise.

A messy Iraq, politically dominated by Iranian clients, was nearly a foregone conclusion before the war started.

De Selby beat me to it.  Bush and Obama were all for leaving combat troops in Iraq if the Iraqi government (Maliki, the PM) had signed a SOFA.  Talabani, the President and a Kurd, tried to push them to sign it but since the power is with the PM it didn't get done.

We've been over this before.  Political insiders from both the Obama admin and Maliki's side have stated that a SOFA deal was possible.  Al Maliki himself is on record saying that he was willing to deal, all he needed was some concession from Obama to save face.  Obama wouldn't negotiate, not seriously, because he had already decided he wanted a full military withdrawal for political reasons.  

The SOFA was the pretext, the excuse, for the US withdrawal from Iraq.  It was not the reason for our withdrawal.

In any event, that just covers our military abandonment in Iraq.  It does not explain our simultaneous diplomatic and political abandonment.  No excuse has yet been offered for that fuckupery.  

It's all part the O Admin's gross incompetence in foreign policy.  Iran, Israel, red lines in Syria, no-showing in Paris, busts of Winston Churchill, you name it. The Obama Admin has a long standing history of royally screwing up foreign relations, from the simplest stuff to the most important.  The lack of follow through in Iraq is just more of the same.

[Pb]

GHW Bush started the AW ban nonsense with by killing the golden age of gun imports... he was no friend of gun owners.  Remember him quitting the NRA publicly?

[TommyGunn]

You're forgetting that Obama tried to stay in Iraq - it was the Iraqis who wouldn't agree to immunity from local prosecutions that undid the deal.  I doubt Bush or anyone could've achieved otherwise while maintaining the pretense of a non-colonial enterprise.

A messy Iraq, politically dominated by Iranian clients, was nearly a foregone conclusion before the war started.

Oh sure.   Obama certainly could have done a better job of twisting the Iraqis' arm ....Oooops just realized Headless Thompson Gunner  said it for me   :

We've been over this before.  Political insiders from both the Obama admin and Maliki's side have stated that a SOFA deal was possible.  Al Maliki himself is on record saying that he was willing to deal, all he needed was some concession from Obama to save face.  Obama wouldn't negotiate, not seriously, because he had already decided he wanted a full military withdrawal for political reasons. 

The SOFA was the pretext, the excuse, for the US withdrawal from Iraq.   It was not the reason for our withdrawal.

In any event, that just covers our military abandonment in Iraq.  It does not explain our simultaneous diplomatic and political abandonment.  No excuse has yet been offered for that fuckupery. 

It's all part the O Admin's gross incompetence in foreign policy.  Iran, Israel, red lines in Syria, no-showing in Paris, busts of Winston Churchill, you name it. The Obama Admin has a long standing history of royally screwing up foreign relations, from the simplest stuff to the most important.  The lack of follow through in Iraq is just more of the same.

[TommyGunn]

GHW Bush started the AW ban nonsense with by killing the golden age of gun imports... he was no friend of gun owners.  Remember him quitting the NRA publicly?

I remember both events.    GHWB was a *****--er, nevermind, I'll just say "RINO."
But he was a big disappointment.   He wasn't Reagan, part two, he was Clinton, part one.

[MechAg94]

Also, I think Obama's idiotic foreign policy moves around Egypt, Libya, and Syria had as much to do with ISIS getting started as Iraq. 

[Jamisjockey]

Obama can't claim all the credit.  Idiots like McCain also fermented support of the Arab Spring and the syrian rebels, which directly led to the rise of Isis.

[roo_ster]

Obama can't claim all the credit.  Idiots like McCain also fermented support of the Arab Spring and the syrian rebels, which directly led to the rise of Isis.

Yup.

I remember both events.    GHWB was a *****--er, nevermind, I'll just say "RINO."
But he was a big disappointment.   He wasn't Reagan, part two, he was Clinton, part one.

And just think: We could possibly elect nothing but alternating Bushes and Clintons for DECADES!

2016 Hilary C (age 69 in 2016)
2024 Jeb B (age 71 in 2024)
2032 Chelsea C (age 52 in 2032)
2040 George P, son of Jeb (age 64 in 2040)
2048 [OK, given the string of POTUSes since 2000, who thinks that we won't be "The United States of Mexico-America by 2048?  At least then we can count on all our policritters marrying blond trophy wives with plenty of silicone like all the Mexican policritters do.]


WTF George P?

On March 21, 2007, the United States Navy Reserve announced the selection of Bush for training as an intelligence officer through the direct commission officer program, a Navy initiative whereby applicants in specialized civilian fields forgo the typical prerequisites of a commission, such as boot camp, and – instead – attend two weeks of classes on subjects such as military history and customs, followed by online classes.

What is so specialized about being a lawyer and frontman for monied interests?

[wmenorr67]

And just think: We could possibly elect nothing but alternating Bushes and Clintons for DECADES!

2016 Hilary C (age 69 in 2016)
2024 Jeb B (age 71 in 2024)
2032 Chelsea C (age 52 in 2032)
2040 George P, son of Jeb (age 64 in 2040)
2048 [OK, given the string of POTUSes since 2000, who thinks that we won't be "The United States of Mexico-America by 2048?  At least then we can count on all our policritters marrying blond trophy wives with plenty of silicone like all the Mexican policritters do.]

I think before we get to 2032 there will be major changes in the world that will change our political structure more than we can imagine.  I don't see anyone on that list getting elected.

[De Selby]

Headless, you got it backwards - Maliki was saving face with the US by engaging in a faux negotiation.  He knew that subjecting US troops to local laws was never going to happen.

Obama conceding that would have been insane - and that was the issue the SOFA turned on.  Hardly Obama's fault.

Iran would never have permitted a SOFA given a choice.  Iran effectively controlled the parliament at that time (and still does), ergo an agreement was unrealistic at that time.

Al Maliki served his mentors and protectors in Iran well.  So well that they're now uncontroversially fighting the good fight in Iraq.

Of course Obama contributed to this, but to blame him for an Iraq pull out that he fought tooth and nail (and then opportunistically declared a win for peace) is wrong.