Post by: Werewolf on July 28, 2007, 09:04:23 AM
She's also a borderline Bible Thumper, fundamentalist christian type (important thing to know later on). She knows I carry - but it always amazes her for some reason when she sees/knows I am doing it.
This afternoon on the way to the mall she asked me if I'd "really shoot someone with my gun".
The conversation went something like this:
Me: Of course....
Her: You'd shoot someone just because they wanted your money or broke into your house?
Me: Of course...
Her: But they'd suffer.
Me: No they wouldn't - becasue they'd be probably be dead.
Her: I know that but that's not what I meant. They'd go to hell and suffer forever, Uncle Michael.
Me: So...
Her: You'd send someone to hell for wanting your stuff?
Me: They decided dyin' for a TV was worth the risk when they decided to break into my house. In Oklahoma the law says...
and on and on...
Here's the logical disconnect as I see it. She has no problem at all with making the person dead.
Her problem is that because they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!
Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought? How would you respond to it if you had the same conversation?
Post by: Manedwolf on July 28, 2007, 09:34:22 AM
Tracey: ...you just murdered me.
Mal: No, son. You murdered yourself. I just carried the bullet a while.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 28, 2007, 10:43:15 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 28, 2007, 11:11:22 AM
Post by: Monkeyleg on July 28, 2007, 12:17:59 PM
Post by: Werewolf on July 28, 2007, 01:36:15 PM
Just say, "the guy's a criminal. Don't you think he's going to hell whether I shoot him or not?"
Good answer... I think I'll give that a try.
Post by: wmenorr67 on July 28, 2007, 04:00:38 PM
Post by: roo_ster on July 28, 2007, 06:43:56 PM
If he commits his crime while cross-wise with God, that is his problem.
In a more general note, most teenagers are nitwits. It is not their fault. Truly, their brains are not finished developing and have some serious deficiencies compared to a physically matured adult. It is our job as adults to steer or cuff them on to the straight & narrow, despite their teenaged nitwittery.
Post by: Antibubba on July 28, 2007, 08:11:34 PM
Quote
Here's the logical disconnect as I see it. She has no problem at all with making the person dead.
Her problem is that because they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!
Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought?
Her problem is that because they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!
Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought?
Is it a disconnect? Until fairly recently in the history of Christianity her disregard of the body and concern for the soul would have been the norm. And even some adult 'thumpers wouldn't see it, subtlety not being a trait often associated with fundamentalism of any flavor.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 28, 2007, 08:56:19 PM
Until fairly recently in the history of Christianity her disregard of the body and concern for the soul would have been the norm.
There's some truth to that.Quote
And even some adult 'thumpers wouldn't see it, subtlety not being a trait often associated with fundamentalism humans of any flavor.
Fixed that for you. Fundamentalism is not mindlessness. In fact, it can encourage thought.
Post by: K Frame on July 28, 2007, 09:56:46 PM
OOOOOoohhhhhhh....
My response to that would have been...
No, if need be, I'd simply end his life.
HE would send HIMSELF to hell for his sins; I would have nothing to do with his going to heaven or hell.
Post by: Tallpine on July 29, 2007, 06:53:39 AM
Or what if I don't?
Post by: K Frame on July 29, 2007, 08:04:04 AM
Hell believes in YOU.
Post by: Tallpine on July 29, 2007, 10:08:47 AM
(sorry I don't play that game anymore)Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).
Post by: lee n. field on July 29, 2007, 03:57:16 PM
Quote
Me: No they wouldn't - becasue they'd be probably be dead.
Her: I know that but that's not what I meant. They'd go to hell and suffer forever, Uncle Michael.
Her: I know that but that's not what I meant. They'd go to hell and suffer forever, Uncle Michael.
My shop/office-mate argues in much the same way. It's not an ignorant teenager thing -- he's 47.
Quote
Truly, their brains are not finished developing
Liberalism (as in "liberalism is a mental disorder" -- El Neil Smith, somewhere), in this guy's case.
Should the zombies come, I fully expect him to show up at my door desiring protection.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 29, 2007, 04:46:29 PM
Yeah, right (sorry I don't play that game anymore)
Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).
(sorry I don't play that game anymore)Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).
and actually they still dont.
I would never tell someone I would shoot a person because he wanted my money, or I'd shoot him over a color TV.
I would shoot someone because he threatened my life, or the life of my family members.
Shooting someone over a TV is worthless.
As for the niece, ask whether its better you send him to hell or he send you to Heaven.
Post by: Stand_watie on July 29, 2007, 05:38:41 PM
Yeah, right (sorry I don't play that game anymore)
Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).
(sorry I don't play that game anymore)Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).
Luke 20 references this belief, and Jesus' response to it.
Post by: Bigjake on July 29, 2007, 05:56:47 PM
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they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!
you say this like its a bad thing.... some people need killin'
Post by: HankB on July 30, 2007, 05:34:50 AM
That's exclusively up to the Almighty.
Post by: Tallpine on July 30, 2007, 06:07:20 AM
Quote
Luke 20 references this belief, and Jesus' response to it.
Yeah, I've actually read the NT, and the OT - more than once
Post by: Strings on July 30, 2007, 07:33:35 AM
If the person was no threat, I'd simply stop him from stealing whatever: no need to kill. Of course, most criminals are going to have some way of trying to intimidate their victim, which then creates a threat against me and mine.
And, putting my own spin on TR's words: I have NO problems shooting someone who is a threat to me and mine. THEY made the choice to be a threat, so the repercussions are on their head...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 30, 2007, 12:19:42 PM
Post by: Tallpine on July 30, 2007, 12:21:51 PM
Quote
See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts.
Death would be welcome after a few minutes of that
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 30, 2007, 12:23:01 PM
Post by: tyme on July 31, 2007, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: Mike Irwin
Hell believes in YOU.
But Soviet Russia doesn't.
What now?
Post by: K Frame on July 31, 2007, 11:27:10 AM
Back to square one.
Post by: LadySmith on July 31, 2007, 10:39:59 PM
See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts. Then I shoot him dead, he goes to heaven, I'm a double-hero (I defended myself and saved a sinner from Hell; sweet). Everybody wins, really.
There's something wrong with that, but I like it anyway.
Post by: Chris on August 01, 2007, 05:29:36 AM
Any criminal who gets shot and dies will go to Hell as a result of the way he/she chose to live. God gave us all free will, and the criminal made choices using that free will. While you and I chose to live good lives, this criminal chose to live a bad life, victimizing others. If a bullet from my gun kills the person, I did not sit in judgment of the person's life. God did. And if God chose to send the criminal to Hell, that is God's will. My role, to paraphrase the often used quote, was simply to arrange the meeting. The same as if the criminal had drowned, overdosed on drugs, been hit by a car, or simply went to sleep only to have his/her heart stop somewhere in the night. While I may be responsible for the death in this example, the eternal suffering as you call it is his/her consequence for a lifetime of sin.
Besides, which is the better outcome, that this criminal suffers for his sins, or that myself or some other person, or many other persons should suffer as a result of the criminal continuing to live and victimize others?
Good discussion with a young lady looking for answers in a world full of questions.
Post by: Tallpine on August 01, 2007, 08:14:49 AM
Post by: Antibubba on August 01, 2007, 07:35:45 PM
Quote
See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts. Then I shoot him dead, he goes to heaven, I'm a double-hero (I defended myself and saved a sinner from Hell; sweet). Everybody wins, really.
You would have made a fine Crusader.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 01, 2007, 07:42:19 PM
Post by: zahc on August 01, 2007, 08:51:47 PM
I understand the logic there but it's not something I'm willing to go with.
Post by: Strings on August 02, 2007, 10:30:45 AM
They were totally lost when I pointed out that *I* am not Christian, either. Ruined their whole argument. Was reminded of that reading this: http://skippyslist.com/2007/07/31/sgt-generic-part-1/
Post by: Mabs2 on August 02, 2007, 10:51:57 AM
And she doesn't know he's not.
He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.
Post by: Tallpine on August 02, 2007, 11:00:39 AM
Quote
He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.
"Once saved, always saved."
Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 02, 2007, 04:18:07 PM
They were totally lost when I pointed out that *I* am not Christian, either. Ruined their whole argument. Was reminded of that reading this: http://skippyslist.com/2007/07/31/sgt-generic-part-1/
LOL
Quote
"Once saved, always saved."
Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call
Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call
Ole Tallpine's got his sin license.
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 02, 2007, 04:46:12 PM
Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought? How would you respond to it if you had the same conversation?
Certainly I see the logical disconnect. The sin is in the mind of the sinner, the act is only a follow-up. A thief/robber/assailant is going to Hell (if you accept that construct) whenever he/she dies, so it doesn't really matter if you assisted in the departure or not. The destination is not open to question.
Post by: Antibubba on August 02, 2007, 10:25:16 PM
Quote
've heard christian-types claim that they would not use lethal force in defense because they know that they are saved, whereas they are unsure of the salvation status of the offender, and thus it is better that they go to heaven because there is a chance that the offender could become saved before death.
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder. Therefore, if by killing him before he murders you, you can prevent him from committing the gravest sin.
Then you, the good Christian, can ask forgiveness, again, and go on your merry way.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 03, 2007, 04:10:57 AM
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.
It is?
Post by: roo_ster on August 03, 2007, 04:11:11 AM
Quote
He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.
"Once saved, always saved."
Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call
Post by: Antibubba on August 03, 2007, 07:34:09 AM
Quote
Quote from: Antibubba on Today at 03:25:16 AM
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.
It is?
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.
It is?
I know it's been forgotten to most of the Xtian world, but part of asking forgiveness for one's sins is asking forgiveness of those you have sinned against. Once you've murdered someone it's impossible to tell them you're sorry.
Post by: Strings on August 03, 2007, 07:55:09 AM
Easy enough.
- Line up sights on target
- say "Sorry 'bout this"
- pull trigger
There... you'v ask forgiveness...
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 03, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
Quote
Quote from: Antibubba on Today at 03:25:16 AM
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.
It is?
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.
It is?
I know it's been forgotten to most of the Xtian world, but part of asking forgiveness for one's sins is asking forgiveness of those you have sinned against. Once you've murdered someone it's impossible to tell them you're sorry.
Are you saying this is the Christian point of view, or your point of view or both?
The Bible speaks of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" as being the unforgivable sin.