Author Topic: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better  (Read 5334 times)

just Warren

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2018, 06:49:20 PM »
I'm sure this isn't a new problem. Nurses were likely getting themselves knocked up since WW1 and before just to get sent home.

So the various branches of every military that's ever had women deployed away from home have been dealing with this for at least a century now and many, many ideas have certainly been promulgated as to how to deal with it and they've not come up with anything. Study after study, report after report and...nothing.

This is one of those *shrug* "Watchu gonna do?" type of things.
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Ron

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 06:37:44 AM »
DD can only be awarded by a General Court Martial.  DD's are usually awarded for things like desertion or murder and you lose your rights just like any other felon.  Is that the route we want to take for doing what people do?

Reread the thread. I already acknowledged I really didn’t understand the nuances of different separations.

Getting prego isn’t like blowing out a knee.

If you don’t want to get prego there is a sure fire way to make sure it doesn’t happen.

The “father” should probably be separated from th service also.

Humans understand risk and rewards intuitively.

It wouldn’t solve the problem but it would diminish it for sure.
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dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 09:30:04 AM »
There's not a problem to solve, as I believe I said.

And since the VAST majority of knee injuries deployed happen playing sports in a soldier's off time, it's more similar to pregnancy than you think at least as far as deployments go.

dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2018, 11:21:39 AM »
Reread the thread. I already acknowledged I really didn’t understand the nuances of different separations.

Getting prego isn’t like blowing out a knee.

If you don’t want to get prego there is a sure fire way to make sure it doesn’t happen.

The “father” should probably be separated from th service also.

Humans understand risk and rewards intuitively.

It wouldn’t solve the problem but it would diminish it for sure.

It wouldn't solve the problem and it would create some new ones along the way.  And i'll vouch for dogmush's statement, as a unit commander I lost way more males to sports injuries than I did to females getting pregnant. 

cordex

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2018, 11:43:19 AM »
It wouldn't solve the problem and it would create some new ones along the way.  And i'll vouch for dogmush's statement, as a unit commander I lost way more males to sports injuries than I did to females getting pregnant. 
Out of curiosity, does that hold true as a percentage?

dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2018, 11:51:36 AM »
Out of curiosity, does that hold true as a percentage?

Yes.  At least in my units over the GWOT.  It even holds true if you include pregnancies discovered up to 90 days before a deployment.

dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2018, 02:24:23 PM »
Out of curiosity, does that hold true as a percentage?

I had command of three stations, three women pregnant over a 9 year period.  At one station I banned sports like flag football because too many men were getting hurt and on limited duty.  For my money alcohol is way worse of a problem than pregnancy.  Maybe we should ban drinking instead?   :-X

cordex

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2018, 02:31:15 PM »
Maybe we should ban drinking instead?   :-X
Would that be a bad idea?

dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2018, 03:15:20 PM »
Would that be a bad idea?

It's a joke. Drinking while deployed is banned. At least for the Army.

Would you like to guess how effective it is?

dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2018, 03:48:10 PM »
Would that be a bad idea?

I think it is about as unenforceable as banning sex.

French G.

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2018, 05:05:45 PM »
After 22 years I don't think it is a huge problem. One fix for the sea service, I would suspend a pregnant member's sea counter and if necessary extend the enlistment so that they complete their sea tour. The career women planned their sea service and pregnancy correctly, mostly a junior sailor problem. And I still like the service academy approach. No marriage first term.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Ron

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2018, 05:20:49 PM »
It wouldn't solve the problem and it would create some new ones along the way.  And i'll vouch for dogmush's statement, as a unit commander I lost way more males to sports injuries than I did to females getting pregnant. 

More males to injuries vs pregnancies in actual numbers or as a percentage of their overall representation?

In other words what % of the males miss deployment due to sports ball injury vs the % of women who become pregnant.

Not being snarky, I don’t know and never looked it up.

My frame of reference is only online discussions, editorials and occasional face to face veteran anecdote.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2018, 06:35:05 PM »
More males to injuries vs pregnancies in actual numbers or as a percentage of their overall representation?

In other words what % of the males miss deployment due to sports ball injury vs the % of women who become pregnant.

Not being snarky, I don’t know and never looked it up.

My frame of reference is only online discussions, editorials and occasional face to face veteran anecdote.



It's a different situation for me, I'm in the Coast Guard.  When I banned flag football injuries were a weekly thing, mostly sprained/torn ligaments, black eyes and a ginormous egg on one person skull.  He dove headfirst into a stone BBQ pit.  The pit had been there 30 plus years.  I don't have any figures for you but the % of males missing duty was no doubt higher than women and pregnancy.  Pregnancy was never an issue at the 3 stations I had.

dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2018, 07:21:06 PM »
More males to injuries vs pregnancies in actual numbers or as a percentage of their overall representation?

In other words what % of the males miss deployment due to sports ball injury vs the % of women who become pregnant.

Not being snarky, I don’t know and never looked it up.

My frame of reference is only online discussions, editorials and occasional face to face veteran anecdote.



As I said in post 30, speaking of deployments and missed deployments/being sent home early, over the course of the War on Terror, and in a Combat Service Support MOS that had women from the beginning, we have not deployed, or sent home a higher percentage of male soldiers for injuries related to off duty sports than female due to pregnancy.  THis is a non issue, except the authors of that story are trying to make an issue they can then solve.  I'd have to check with some old 1SG's to be sure, but I'm pretty sure the percentage of missed deployments due to motorcycle crashes is higher as well.  I can think of 7 of those off the top of my head.

Also, I'll mention it again, US service members access to contraceptives is easy, free, and generally without recrimination.  I don't know what the "preferred method" of birth control those soldiers in the article couldn't get But I know for a fact (because I've helped my solders navigate TriCare to get) several types of IUD, a couple of implantable, depo, pills, diaphragms, sponges, (in some cases) tubal ligation, condoms of every shape, size and color and probably some ones I don't know about are all available and free to service members.  There are some that aren't available to start while deployed.  You have to think a little ahead but you can get contraceptives.

Hell, I had a MALE soldier get birth control pills just for the asking from the Navy in Bahrain.  He said one of his Female shipmates needed some to get back to port, and rattled off a brand name and they gave him a pack.

Scout26

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2018, 09:16:21 PM »
I think I ranted about this once before....oh yeah...here it is.  (With apologies to BSL)


http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=49614.msg1012238#msg1012238
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Pb

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2018, 09:17:06 AM »
I love how you guys think the only way to solve this is to kick woman out of deployment.


It would also solve the problem of female soldiers being much, much weaker, and much more prone to injuries than male soldiers.  So it's a win all around.  No pregnancies, less injuries and better performance in their duties.

dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2018, 09:26:53 AM »
It would also solve the problem of female soldiers being much, much weaker, and much more prone to injuries than male soldiers.  So it's a win all around.  No pregnancies, less injuries and better performance in their duties.

So how many deployments have you been on in the last 15 years?

I'm interested in your first hand knowledge of deployed females, since it doesn't really correlate with mine.

Pb

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2018, 12:19:02 PM »
So how many deployments have you been on in the last 15 years?

I'm interested in your first hand knowledge of deployed females, since it doesn't really correlate with mine.

I have never been in the military.

The military has done research on mixed sex units.  The UMC found that all male units performed better than mixed sex ones:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2394531-marine-corps-force-integration-plan-summary.html

The military found that women suffer far more injuries than men (there are a bunch of studies, I just picked one randomly):
https://watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-d-14-00321.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAk8wggJLBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggI8MIICOAIBADCCAjEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMGpB3J3nPKKDmwpMiAgEQgIICAtqdMY2N_Fm8h4Uspl3ZqN0N8t5YTQbKO-rcO7n5uJbpbUg96zrv87xOvsGlvShrr-pz62rgMFGcRgTwsGICfeGDugkkJDU1q3Ok0Q5srGQ3yg51NLvgd0WBXGSm5qBtI6h-MmrVgVlzu6wDepDslMH9oubkE2N8EFy-N1qh0XxE_Qia2KCpEcfQcuboP96XZ9jS8lg4qMizWi5kcZJnS3zWkLVWcExVlY20v4ibtt3rlYEPJgJ1YDzAMhbNXvl7o3axSjEhIyvhIHmpcYKc5ojpdMC2nkxeR1AtQMxE3xMXugTtUOq2ZmTIAk515u9q1bxVfoYaBsmeW8wUlsR_K6G-2MwZU7QHaU0LgHrWeJBxWacNIdnyn6jYjULTiDe2w1oKI4WTyeaLe2wqbk-Q2jvjZmS6Lm1aQXjQsiF8aMBMqwwtf4HN7vFBCkpFet351XPiHeJEXBvJlhtz7ui-oavTdkt7-72NpGNtzJN3VIWnufUt-VCzPiGoRyS3uRfAIhbsAkuQW3Z1PWej9A2_S636HCxNg5sWvAi6gnzYo5hIresrAjM8DmKiZDMSl_BJauNTOSKyBEY0gR4yewFSDduZRopcK7jkMDmCibawl8B-WWP-emtxYkZDbMW1IelvQKABgvoMM22sgDv4AWwRKqhLfJ5TAi1zka-EBVdhLOlh8OU

I could sight studies showing men are stronger than women, but I don't think that is necessary.

Women are, on average, weaker than men, and more prone to injury.  And pregnancy.  This makes women worse combat soldiers than men.  Feminism doesn't override physical differences in the sexes.



dogmush

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2018, 12:36:31 PM »
Not all Soldiers are combat soldiers,  and not all deployments are combat deployments.

ETA: To expound, not even all deployments to combat zones are combat deployments.  This thread and OP weren't about Females in Combat Arms Military Occupational Specialties (MOS) which is what the Marine Corps was studying, it was about women being deployed.

Several folks have told you that the OP's "problem" is neither that new, nor much of a problem.  Two of us have told you from personal experience commanding mixed units that it's not that much of a problem, but you seem to be pretty entrenched in your views.

Let me be plain because I'm going to edge right up to the Polite part here.  Females have deployed with soldiers forever.  They have done so in uniform as US Soldiers themselves for decades.  There are many roles in Combat Support and Combat Service Support that require deployments for which women do as well as (or in some cases better than) their male counterparts. 

BTR, you should probably stop talking about this subject, until you at least get the differences between deployments, combat, and MOS's correct, because you're wrong.  Removing females from all deployments would be a net hindrance to the US military, and hurt our combat effectiveness, even if it were possible politically, which it's not.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 12:54:17 PM by dogmush »

Ben

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2018, 01:46:58 PM »
There are many roles in Combat Support and Combat Service Support that require deployments for which women do as well as (or in some cases better than) their male counterparts. 

The best Aircraft Commander I ever flew with was a female Annapolis grad who flew helos in Desert Storm/Shield. Simply the best pilot I have ever seen.
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dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2018, 06:20:25 PM »
There are Coast Guard air crews(mixed sex) pre staging right now for the aftermath of Florence.  My unit is about ready to pull chocks and move inland but our boat crews (mixed gender) and maintainers are ready to head back to the coast for SAR ops as soon as they can.  I seriously doubt that anyone assisted by a female Coastie is going to complain.

Strings

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2018, 06:33:56 PM »
Quote
The best Aircraft Commander I ever flew with was a female Annapolis grad who flew helos in Desert Storm/Shield. Simply the best pilot I have ever seen.

Seem to recall that when Rev was with Sikorski, the best test pilot they had was a female
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Ben

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2018, 06:40:25 PM »
There are Coast Guard air crews(mixed sex) pre staging right now for the aftermath of Florence. 

I worked in your C-130s out of SACTO a few times. The female (I can't remember if she was AC or co-pilot) on a couple of those missions was AJ Squared Away too. I'm not sure if she could have fireman carried my fat ass off the aircraft in an emergency, but she could fly it any old time. :)

Do you guys have any female helo pilots these days? I flew in the 65s quite a few times, but they were always male aircrew.
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dm1333

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Re: So telling active-duty troops not to have sex could possibly work better
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2018, 07:46:03 PM »
Yup, we have female pilots and female Surfmen, just graduated our first woman through something called ATOC.