Ann Coulter's CPAC speech

[MicroBalrog]

Conception is when the fetus begins. At what point after that can you say that life has begun? What's the criteria?

Why not at the appearance of a brain? A brain is, after all, the host of the human personality, as far as we can know.

Again, I don't know the true answer. This is what state legislatures are for.

[tyme]

Would you say that Jessie Jackson, Faith Daniels, there are more I just can find the list, should not of lived?  They were the product of a rape.

Are you saying Jessie Jackson (who was the product of statutory rape, not rape rape, as far as I know) and Faith Daniels are more deserving of life than anyone else?  That is an incoherent argument, because nobody knows who an embryo or fetus will turn out to be.

I do not see that much of a difference between telling a woman she cannot abort at an early stage (based on the concept that "life begins at conception"), and telling a woman she must have sex and get pregnant.

If the concern is that an unborn child might has a right to life, what difference does it make whether that unborn child is a fetus, an embryo, or an egg and a sperm?  If you're fine with taking away a woman's choice to have an abortion, I don't see why you're not fine with taking away everyone's right not to procreate.  Think about all the great and wonderful people who are not being born because most people in society exercise too much restraint and/or use birth control?  Aren't there lives more important than the right of people to choose whether or not to have sex?

[Perd Hapley]

Why not at the appearance of a brain? A brain is, after all, the host of the human personality, as far as we can know.

"As far as we can know."  Not a very bright line. 

I do not see that much of a difference between telling a woman she cannot abort at an early stage (based on the concept that "life begins at conception"), and telling a woman she must have sex and get pregnant.

You expect us to take that seriously?  No person of sound mind could possibly fail to understand that distinction. 

[tyme]

Conception is when the fetus begins. At what point after that can you say that life has begun? What's the criteria?

The current criterion we have, which will work for a while -- until scientists can get a child to survive in vitro from the embryo stage to viability -- is birth.  It is arbitrary.  It is also better than conception for a bunch of reasons, most of all because it does not infringe on the rights of the mother based on philosophical notions of what an unborn child is or might become.

Why not at the appearance of a brain? A brain is, after all, the host of the human personality, as far as we can know.

Why at the appearance of a brain?  Are humans the only creatures that have brains?  If having a brain automatically imbues a creature with fundamental human rights, then we'd best shut down all animal experimentation and all become vegans.

[makattak]

The current criterion we have, which will work for a while -- until scientists can get a child to survive in vitro from the embryo stage to viability -- is birth.  It is arbitrary.  It is also better than conception for a bunch of reasons, most of all because it does not infringe on the rights of the mother based on philosophical notions of what an unborn child is or might become.

Why at the appearance of a brain?  Are humans the only creatures that have brains?  If having a brain automatically imbues a creature with fundamental human rights, then we'd best shut down all animal experimentation and all become vegans.

Why pick birth? The child can't live on its own. Might as well let the parents "expose" the child like they did in Rome.

At least they're not actively killing the baby.

I bet you think that's barbaric, though.

Edit: Also, soooo, how about Ann Coulter?

[Perd Hapley]

The current criterion we have, which will work for a while -- until scientists can get a child to survive in vitro from the embryo stage to viability -- is birth.  It is arbitrary.  It is also better than conception for a bunch of reasons, most of all because it does not infringe on the rights of the mother based on philosophical notions of what an unborn child is or might become.

Well, that's laughable for a bunch of reasons, but one will do.  There's no reason why parents' responsibility to care for a child shouldn't extend before birth, as well as after.  If such infringes on her rights before birth, there's no reason why it shouldn't infringe afterward.

Wait, I'm sorry.  I don't mean to mock your pre-scientific worldview, where you can't see inside the womb. 


Oh, wait again.  I keep trying to tell myself not to get into "debates" with the good Germans.   

[MicroBalrog]

Actually, we can see into the womb.

Which is exactly why I think that early-stage foetuses are not human beings.

[tyme]

@fistful, makattak

There's always adoption.  Once born a child is no longer bound inextricably to one person who must care for it.

And no, I don't think the Romans were particularly barbaric, any more than I think chimpanzees are barbaric for not building motor vehicles.  Just because society rejects a certain activity now doesn't mean we have to retroactively label anyone who ever engaged in that activity to be barbarians.

I don't mean to mock your pre-scientific worldview, where you can't see inside the womb.

Is it what you see, or what you want to see, that guides your enlightened, post-scientific worldview?

Oh cool, I'm a Nazi.  I guess that should go in my bio.  Thanks for noting that omission.

[Ben]

Edit: Also, soooo, how about Ann Coulter?

Yeah, how about that Ann Coulter? You guys should know by now that abortion is one of the topics where people have strong opinions, most minds are made up, and the thread always devolves into indignant responses and name calling. Can we get back to the original topic, or at least thread drift in another direction, so we don't have to lock the thread? Thanks.

[Gowen]

Ben you are right, this is not an abortion thread.  I am very prolife, so I am backing out of the thread.

[RocketMan]

This is one of those times where the inevitable APS thread drift is not a good thing.  How about we get it back on track, folks.

[Sergeant Bob]

The US hockey team darn near beat Canada for the Gold tonight. They were down 2 to 1 and scored a goal with 24.4 seconds left on the clock and even it up at 2 ea. and put it into sudden death OT.

US played a real good game for the Silver.

[Monkeyleg]

The US hockey team darn near beat Canada for the Gold tonight. They were down 2 to 1 and scored a goal with 24.4 seconds left on the clock and even it up at 2 ea. and put it into sudden death OT.

US played a real good game for the Silver.

Does Ann Coulter play for the US hockey team, or is this thread drifting even further?

[taurusowner]

Hockey is of the utmost importance to all topics and aspects of life.

[sanglant]

Does Ann Coulter play for the US hockey team, or is this thread drifting even further?

at least i'm not the only one. it's nice to have company for a change.

[Ron]

Has Ann ever opined on bacon? mmmm, I love bacon.

[Ben]

Has Ann ever opined on bacon? mmmm, I love bacon.

She's in favor of it, though I don't think she eats much.

[MechAg94]

She's in favor of it, though I don't think she eats much.

I think I would make that assumption as well.  :)

[roo_ster]

>No stance is OK, just don't make it too wide, Senator.  Or over a subway air vent, considering your predilection for kilts.<

I have a very simple stance on abortion: none. Having a penis, I'm not as effected. However, if some woman I've slept with comes up pregnant, then my choice is to support whatever SHE decides (since she's the one who gets to deal with all the physical fun)... 

OK, I retract my indifference toward your written stance and hereby call it ridicule-worthy.

Sense, it does not make.  Or, it makes sense in as much as only slave-owners could properly have an opinion on slavery in America before the Civil War.  After all, they were the ones who had to clothe, feed,and clean up after the slaves...

I would suggest that such issues are best thought on with the other head.

[Monkeyleg]

OK, I retract my indifference toward your written stance and hereby call it ridicule-worthy.

Sense, it does not make.  Or, it makes sense in as much as only slave-owners could properly have an opinion on slavery in America before the Civil War.  After all, they were the ones who had to clothe, feed,and clean up after the slaves...

I would suggest that such issues are best thought on with the other head.

You do realize this road is going to lead to a locked thread?

[Strings]

Actually Dick, that's one of the points that can be made with this issue (and has been made, many times). Let me quote the last mod comment:

You guys should know by now that abortion is one of the topics where people have strong opinions, most minds are made up, and the thread always devolves into indignant responses and name calling

Happens almost every time.

[RocketMan]

You probably ought to lock it down, Dick.  It's way off course, not likely to come back, and there is the smell of smoke.

[Sergeant Bob]

You probably ought to lock it down, Dick.  It's way off course, not likely to come back, and there is the smell of smoke.

Smoking is bad!

[Monkeyleg]

Sure is, and I speak from experience.

This thread is officially off-topic, incendiary, loopy and locked.