"We will die for Allah"

[Andiron]

I'm told they consider White Phosphorus an insult too.

Gods bless the Ruskies..

[Hawkmoon]

They also consider ISIS an insult.

Pfffffft.

They consider Christianity and Judaism to be insults, too.

[seeker_two]

I'm told they consider White Phosphorus an insult too.

Will WP still burn when mixed with pork fat? We can eliminate the terrorists' threat and leave the area with a rich, bacon scent.....win-win.

[Fly320s]

I'm told they consider White Phosphorus an insult too.

Ooh, burn.

[KD5NRH]

They also consider ISIS an insult.

They consider Goat Fellating Camel Jockeys an insult too, but it seems to be unpopular in certain media. 

[roo_ster]

They consider Goat Fellating Camel Jockeys an insult too, but it seems to be unpopular in certain media. 

Isn't one of the oil emirates trying to get Camel Mounted Goat Fellatio into the 2020 Olympics?

[dogmush]

Isn't one of the oil emirates trying to get Camel Mounted Goat Fellatio into the 2020 Olympics?

If they did, they'd be insulted when Western Europe swept the podium with its immigrants.

[Ron]

I'm no apologist for Arab tribal culture or their Islamic death cult hydra but we need to back off the rhetoric a bit methinks.


The broad brush anti Arab/ME rhetoric is pretty counterproductive. I have a friend who is Turkish, non religious and is a naturalized citizen. Until recently we had never discussed politics/religion. There is an amazing amount of head in the sand thinking and deflection of blame going on among folks of his persuasion. After getting an idea of where he is coming from I can see how the administration would say "it's a jobs problem" 



   

[T.O.M.]

I'm no apologist for Arab tribal culture or their Islamic death cult hydra but we need to back off the rhetoric a bit methinks.


The broad brush anti Arab/ME rhetoric is pretty counterproductive. I have a friend who is Turkish, non religious and is a naturalized citizen. Until recently we had never discussed politics/religion. There is an amazing amount of head in the sand thinking and deflection of blame going on among folks of his persuasion. After getting an idea of where he is coming from I can see how the administration would say "it's a jobs problem" 
   

I would agree with this.  I have known several Islamic individuals through my life, all of whom hate that their religious beliefs have been perverted to justify acts of murder.  I recently saw a quote from Malala Yousafzi (the young lady shot by terrorist for going to school) that reads "With guns you can kill terrorists, with education you can kill terrorism.”  While I happen to favor the first option, I also believe that both should be used.  And, I also believe that the rhetoric can be couterproductive, in that the hatred can serve as fodder for those seeking to recruit more terrorists, which won't help us a bit.

[roo_ster]

Ron and chris have a point.  

Surely if we--america and the west collectively--avoid harsh rhetoric, the adherents to orthodox islam currently alienated from liberal western values just may come to see that they have more to gain working with us than sawing off our heads on youtube.  How can we be sure it wont work if we have not yet tried?

We can even find interfaith conflicts and decisively side with the muslims and against say, the roman catholics and eastern orthodox.  We can bomb the virtual Jesus out of the enemies of the muslims while making great and showy efforts to support the muslims with berlin airlift-like operations.  If that does not make them appreciate us the first time like we did in bosnia, repeat the whole deal in kosovo.

If that does not work to coax orthodox islam into working as a partner with the west, perhaps we can just plain save the lives of countless muslims by providing famine relief and relief from marauding bands of drug addled thugs in a war torn country.  Sort of like we did in somalia.  Besides, how could such a benevolent act backfire in either the short or long term?

Surely after we offically cut the rhetoric, killed christians to save muslims, and saved untold numbers of muslim children from starvation we could count on sympathy if we ourselves suffered mass murder.  We ought to bet that the average orthodox muslim will remember all that blood and treasure expended by america and the west on behalf of their co-relogionists and forsake jubilant celebration when we ourselves suffer heinous injury.

After all that i am sure we will discover that the train is fine.

[brimic]

Pretty much...maybe we can up the ante in becoming friends of 'orthodox'  (I like that one) muslims by nuking Israel, after the last christian in europe, asia minor, and africa has been exterminated. Then we can hand our daughters over for abuse, rape, and fgm and everything will be puppy dogs and rainbows.

[Jocassee]

Ron and chris have a point.  

Surely if we--america and the west collectively--avoid harsh rhetoric, the adherents to orthodox islam currently alienated from liberal western values just may come to see that they have more to gain working with us than sawing off our heads on youtube.  How can we be sure it wont work if we have not yet tried?

We can even find interfaith conflicts and decisively side with the muslims and against say, the roman catholics and eastern orthodox.  We can bomb the virtual Jesus out of the enemies of the muslims while making great and showy efforts to support the muslims with berlin airlift-like operations.  If that does not make them appreciate us the first time like we did in bosnia, repeat the whole deal in kosovo.

If that does not work to coax orthodox islam into working as a partner with the west, perhaps we can just plain save the lives of countless muslims by providing famine relief and relief from marauding bands of drug addled thugs in a war torn country.  Sort of like we did in somalia.  Besides, how could such a benevolent act backfire in either the short or long term?

Surely after we offically cut the rhetoric, killed christians to save muslims, and saved untold numbers of muslim children from starvation we could count on sympathy if we ourselves suffered mass murder.  We ought to bet that the average orthodox muslim will remember all that blood and treasure expended by america and the west on behalf of their co-relogionists and forsake jubilant celebration when we ourselves suffer heinous injury.

After all that i am sure we will discover that the train is fine.

And Roo_Ster sinks the battleship.

[Ron]

Ron and chris have a point.  

Surely if we--america and the west collectively--avoid harsh rhetoric, the adherents to orthodox islam currently alienated from liberal western values just may come to see that they have more to gain working with us than sawing off our heads on youtube.  How can we be sure it wont work if we have not yet tried?
We can even find interfaith conflicts and decisively side with the muslims and against say, the roman catholics and eastern orthodox.  We can bomb the virtual Jesus out of the enemies of the muslims while making great and showy efforts to support the muslims with berlin airlift-like operations.  If that does not make them appreciate us the first time like we did in bosnia, repeat the whole deal in kosovo.

If that does not work to coax orthodox islam into working as a partner with the west, perhaps we can just plain save the lives of countless muslims by providing famine relief and relief from marauding bands of drug addled thugs in a war torn country.  Sort of like we did in somalia.  Besides, how could such a benevolent act backfire in either the short or long term?

Surely after we offically cut the rhetoric, killed christians to save muslims, and saved untold numbers of muslim children from starvation we could count on sympathy if we ourselves suffered mass murder.  We ought to bet that the average orthodox muslim will remember all that blood and treasure expended by america and the west on behalf of their co-relogionists and forsake jubilant celebration when we ourselves suffer heinous injury.

After all that i am sure we will discover that the train is fine.

Nice straw men you have erected there. I spoke directly about not lumping all folks from that background or region into the Islamic death cult category. Insulting all Middle Easterners as goat *expletive deleted*ers furthers our agenda how?  

So instead of using historical techniques of persuasion and apologetics, engaging them in discussion, exposing their erroneous presuppositions and the logical consequences of their belief system we should just call them goat *expletive deleted*ers?

May I remind you that you and I conveniently ignore that the modern progressive leftist world view is the dominant world view of all the west when we champion "Western civilization". In fact progressivism is Western Civilization.

You and I love and pine for the Western Civilization that effectively swallowed poison and died around a century ago. Obama didn't do anything to fundamentally transform this country, it was already a dead man walking. Behold your beloved Western Civilization! It went astray long ago, has become monstrous itself and is every bit your enemy as Islam.

Very nominal Muslims and secular folks from Muslim majority countries could potentially be convinced of classical liberal principles more easily than the majority of post modern muddle heads our country is populated with currently. They still believe in the concept of "Truth" and that there is an objective reality outside of human constructs. You can't say that for the generations of publak skul drones who are only capable of repeating the slogans pounded into their heads for over a decade in our government right think institutions.

edited to add,

I suspect I will have better success convincing and finding common ground with my friend from Turkey than I will with our progressive post modern friend DeSelby.

          

[Ron]

And Roo_Ster sinks the battleship.

You don't sink battleships by typing angry insults in an echo chamber.

[Pb]

The problem is, "orthodox" Islam supports murder.

Orthodox Islam says apostates should be killed.

Orthodox Islam says adherents of some religions (Christians, Jews and a few others) should submit to Muslim control, and all others should convert or die (Hindus, atheists etc).

Mohammad had people murdered for insulting him, including slave women.

Mohammed had large numbers of innocent captives, including children, massacred.

Mohammed approved of raping captives.  It is in the Koran and the hadiths.

Mohammed raped a nine year old girl.

Mohammed captured people and sold them as slaves.

These are all facts of history and Islamic doctrine.

[brimic]

Nice straw men you have erected there. I spoke directly about not lumping all folks from that background or region into the Islamic death cult category. Insulting all Middle Easterners as goat *expletive deleted*ers furthers our agenda how?  

So instead of using historical techniques of persuasion and apologetics, engaging them in discussion, exposing their erroneous presuppositions and the logical consequences of their belief system we should just call them goat *expletive deleted*ers?

May I remind you that you and I conveniently ignore that the modern progressive leftist world view is the dominant world view of all the west when we champion "Western civilization". In fact progressivism is Western Civilization.

You and I love and pine for the Western Civilization that effectively swallowed poison and died around a century ago. Obama didn't do anything to fundamentally transform this country, it was already a dead man walking. Behold your beloved Western Civilization! It went astray long ago, has become monstrous itself and is every bit your enemy as Islam.

Very nominal Muslims and secular folks from Muslim majority countries could potentially be convinced of classical liberal principles more easily than the majority of post modern muddle heads our country is populated with currently. They still believe in the concept of "Truth" and that there is an objective reality outside of human constructs. You can't say that for the generations of publak skul drones who are only capable of repeating the slogans pounded into their heads for over a decade in our government right think institutions.

edited to add,

I suspect I will have better success convincing and finding common ground with my friend from Turkey than I will with our progressive post modern friend DeSelby.

          

I get what you are saying- at least on the individual basis. However, I would like to see a single example where mass immigration from the M.E., Northern or Subsaharan Africa has led to greater prosperity or an expansion of classical liberalism in any western country.

As far as the 'publik skool' issue- that can be mostly ameliorated simply by removing kids from that system. Its a problem that has been manufactured by the progressives in this country, not unlike the crisis that they are manufacturing where we suddenly need to take in 'refugees' in large numbers- most of which will become sucklings on the welfare system, at best.

[Ron]

I get what you are saying- at least on the individual basis. However, I would like to see a single example where mass immigration from the M.E., Northern or Subsaharan Africa has led to greater prosperity or an expansion of classical liberalism in any western country.

As far as the 'publik skool' issue- that can be mostly ameliorated simply by removing kids from that system. Its a problem that has been manufactured by the progressives in this country, not unlike the crisis that they are manufacturing where we suddenly need to take in 'refugees' in large numbers- most of which will become sucklings on the welfare system, at best.

All I'm addressing is the personal. Writing off all of "our" Muslims or immigrants from the ME is myopic. Hell, a good portion of our Muslims have probably been coopted by post modern thought processes also and are enemies in the same way the progressives are our enemy.

The goat *expletive deleted*er rhetoric does not further our cause.

As an aside I am opposed to all (maybe just 99%) immigration from the ME.

This has nothing to do with the touchy feely bs about "our values" the vapid leftists in the Republican and Democrat parties talk about. I don't share their suicidal anti-values.

[Ron]

The problem is, "orthodox" Islam supports murder.

Orthodox Islam says apostates should be killed.

Orthodox Islam says adherents of some religions (Christians, Jews and a few others) should submit to Muslim control, and all others should convert or die (Hindus, atheists etc).

Mohammad had people murdered for insulting him, including slave women.

Mohammed had large numbers of innocent captives, including children, massacred.

Mohammed approved of raping captives.  It is in the Koran and the hadiths.

Mohammed raped a nine year old girl.

Mohammed captured people and sold them as slaves.

These are all facts of history and Islamic doctrine.

All stipulated.

Calling fellow Americans goat *expletive deleted*ers and starting the conversation there ^ isn't going to get us anywhere though. I'm not saying I have the magic formula but I have a pretty good idea about what won't work.  

[Perd Hapley]

Ron, I disagree. We should continue to call them goat *expletive deleted*ers, just for our adolescent amusement. If anyone doesn't like it, we'll call them libtards. That'll show 'em.

[KD5NRH]

Steal the Kaaba. 

Move it to Pyongyang, and release photos of it recognizably there.

Frame Putin.

Sit back and watch.

[roo_ster]

Ron:

The most pertinent line of my post was the very last.  To make it clear: Worry about muslims taking offense misses the point. 
Helmut: "Hey, Hans, that Einstein fellow who works across hall just submitted a paper on the theory of relativity."
Hans: "He didn't process all the patent applications from last week."

1. "Moderate" muslims, as far as they are not unicorns, are useless.  They will not stop their orthodox brethren from warring on non-muslims.  We're talking "tits on a boar hog" magnitude of uselessness.  They are not a factor until they reach a critical mass and your moderate muslim buddy becomes a not-so-moderate angry beard, kafir.

2. Moderate westerners are worse than useless, by directing their ire toward fellow westerners over methodology.

3. Orthodox muslims have no shinloa to give over insinuations of caprine knob-polishing.  More than likely the folks beheaded, burned alive, tossed from buildings, crushed by masonry walls, drowned, tortured to death, raped to death, and otherwise murdered by orthodox muslims gave the orthodox muslims very little guff in their presence.

4. Orthodox muslims do not think like westerners.  They have different values, different conceptions of right and wrong.  They are going to kill you/us anyway.  Are they going to kill us again because we spoke poorly of htem?

5. Referring to orthodox muslims in such a manner serves the same purpose as the terms jap, kraut, gook, etc.  It sharpens the contrast between the groups and facilitates action and/or attitudes to counter the hirsine-humper threat.  Sure, it is not language you would use toward your buddies over a game of rummy, but were one of the orthodox muslims seated at that table, like as not he'd be sawing off your head while you were hollering, "But 'Machete' is not a proper suit!  Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!"

[makattak]

Nice straw men you have erected there. I spoke directly about not lumping all folks from that background or region into the Islamic death cult category. Insulting all Middle Easterners as goat *expletive deleted*ers furthers our agenda how? 

So instead of using historical techniques of persuasion and apologetics, engaging them in discussion, exposing their erroneous presuppositions and the logical consequences of their belief system we should just call them goat *expletive deleted*ers?

May I remind you that you and I conveniently ignore that the modern progressive leftist world view is the dominant world view of all the west when we champion "Western civilization". In fact progressivism is Western Civilization.

You and I love and pine for the Western Civilization that effectively swallowed poison and died around a century ago. Obama didn't do anything to fundamentally transform this country, it was already a dead man walking. Behold your beloved Western Civilization! It went astray long ago, has become monstrous itself and is every bit your enemy as Islam.

Very nominal Muslims and secular folks from Muslim majority countries could potentially be convinced of classical liberal principles more easily than the majority of post modern muddle heads our country is populated with currently. They still believe in the concept of "Truth" and that there is an objective reality outside of human constructs. You can't say that for the generations of publak skul drones who are only capable of repeating the slogans pounded into their heads for over a decade in our government right think institutions.

edited to add,

I suspect I will have better success convincing and finding common ground with my friend from Turkey than I will with our progressive post modern friend DeSelby.

We did that. Allow me to illustrate:

(Edit: These are the graduating classes of Cairo University)
1955

1978

The vast majority of Muslims were peaceful and interested in Western ideas and profiting by their adoption of said ideas.

2004

Not so much interested in Western values and ideas. (Yes, that IS reflected in how they present themselves.)

The ONLY way to get back to 1959 or 1978 effects is to act as though we believe our way of life is best.

Of course, with the ascendancy of liberalism wait, errr... progessivism, our way of life isn't best and can be clearly determined by those on the outside looking in.

Further, the image we project through our media is that we are a broken, corrupt, violent, hedonistic culture.  Is it any surprise that it is being rejected?

[brimic]

Of course, with the ascendancy of liberalism wait, errr... progessivism, our way of life isn't best and can be clearly determined by those on the outside looking in.

Further, the image we project through our media is that we are a broken, corrupt, violent, hedonistic culture.  Is it any surprise that it is being rejected?

Bingo!

4. Orthodox muslims do not think like westerners.  They have different values, different conceptions of right and wrong.  They are going to kill you/us anyway.  Are they going to kill us again because we spoke poorly of htem?

Substitute 'liberals' for 'muslims' (might as well leave the 'orthodox in there too), and the statement is still true.

[T.O.M.]

When I started out as in the political world (as a .gov employee), a wise man told me...

"Son, you don't have to go around kissing people's asses, but you also don't have to go around pissing everyone off."

I never advocated for opening the border and welcoming everyone from the Middle East with open arms.  Honestly, I think immigration should be highly restricted.  There are enough people draining .gov benefits in the country.  No need to add more.

I also didn't advocate for any kind of famine relief, monetary relief, or anything else to that region.  I saw Somalia.  I had friends there when the whole "Blackhawk Down" thing happened.

All I'm saying is that the generalization of all Muslims as evil, combined with the insults, the name calling, the denigration, it ain't helping much.  If anything, it's probably helping ISIS and Al Queda in their quest for new suicide bombers and jihadists.  "Look at the Americans.  They hate us all.  They say anyone who worships Allah engages in child molestation and beastiality. They want to kill all Muslims.  Join us and protect all of the children of Allah."  Add this to the media images of the West you all mentioned, and you've got great recruiting tools for young Muslims who feel like the world is out to get them.

We don't have to kiss their asses, but we also don't have to piss them all off.

[AJ Dual]

All I'm saying is that the generalization of all Muslims as evil, combined with the insults, the name calling, the denigration, it ain't helping much.  If anything, it's probably helping ISIS and Al Queda in their quest for new suicide bombers and jihadists.  "Look at the Americans.  They hate us all.  They say anyone who worships Allah engages in child molestation and beastiality. They want to kill all Muslims.  Join us and protect all of the children of Allah."  Add this to the media images of the West you all mentioned, and you've got great recruiting tools for young Muslims who feel like the world is out to get them.

We don't have to kiss their asses, but we also don't have to piss them all off.

1. Which is exactly what ISIS and Al Qaeda wants, the west to generalize and overreach against the Muslim world, and create de-facto recruitment and unity of large swaths of the population who then feels they have no choice.

2. People like simple solutions. "It's complicated. There's good, bad, in-between Muslims, some kinda-bad ones who haven't hurt us, so despite being bad, don't deserve anything, and other kinda-good ones who's leadership did help some bad ones, and all these good ones over here who are victims..." is never satisfying to people. They want black/white, Axis and Allies etc. (Which was never that simple either... look at Stalin etc.)