Author Topic: Sick of the B.S.  (Read 12763 times)

Art Eatman

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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2005, 09:40:28 AM »
Coming late to the party:  Sindawe, do you think the IAEA actually is allowed to see everything that the Iranians are doing?  Given the various pronouncements of the Iranian government over the last umpteen years as to how the West is the Root Of All Evil, do you really think they're fully truthful?  Do you think it is all lies that they have been purchasing and constructing the sorts of equipment that would allow them to make nuclear devices?

I guess I operate from the standpoint that the US Government is more likely to have my best interests at heart than the Iran Government.   And that doesn't at all mean that I'm all that much in love with the past and present regimes in the U.S., either.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

garrettwc

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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2005, 09:49:06 AM »
Quote from: Sindawe
Mike,

Please provide citations of independent agencies that verify the claims that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.  Even the IAEA (the folks tasked with verifying the NPT)have repeatedly stated that Iran is not doing this.
I'm not Mike, but this sounds like what you are looking for:
Quote
At the end of week-long meetings beginning 19 September, the IAEA Board of Governors adopted a resolution on the implementation of safeguards in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The resolution finds that Iran´s failures and breaches constitute non-compliance and calls on Iran to return to the negotiating process.
Failures and breaches? Non-compliance? We're not discussing a recipe for chocolate chip cookies here.

Link to the resolution:
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2005/gov2005-77.pdf

The board report the resolution is based on:
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2005/gov2005-67.pdf

BillBlank

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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2005, 11:36:11 AM »
Thanks JFRuser, makes me wish I could sit out on the back porch, share a beer and put the world to rights, or at least get a better understanding of it with some of you. In between work and home life I don't get much chance to spark the family braincell into life.
Just so happens Satan's behind the bar pulling the late shift for a buddy...

Ron

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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2005, 02:30:30 PM »
Quote
I guess I operate from the standpoint that the US Government is more likely to have my best interests at heart than the Iran Government.   And that doesn't at all mean that I'm all that much in love with the past and present regimes in the U.S., either.
Forgive me if I am jaded when it comes to pronouncements from foreign governments regarding their nuclear ambitions.
Pakistan
India
N Korea
Israel
Iran
I also believe as Art is quoted above that our government is more likely to have our interests in mind (at least more than even our allies).

grampster

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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2005, 04:18:41 PM »
Boy it is tough not jumping into this one.  I'm not.  Friend of mine always told me to not get in a pissing contest with a skunk.  Good advice.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

SpookyPistolero

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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2005, 06:15:32 PM »
My favorite was always 'Never argue with a fool. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.' or something like that..
"She could not have reached this white serenity except as the sum of all the colors, of all the violence she had known." - The Fountainhead
"Smoke your pipe and be silent; there's only wind and smoke in the world"  - Irish Proverb

garrettwc

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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2005, 06:41:13 PM »
Lots of 'sperience in this thread Spooky. Tongue

griz

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« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2005, 07:18:54 AM »
Quote
"Is there a point here or are you just trying to stir up trouble?"

Both.  I suggest taking reading comprehension 101.
So for we of little comprehension who would reply if we knew what you point was, what is it?
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2005, 07:27:55 AM »
Quote from: griz
Quote
"Is there a point here or are you just trying to stir up trouble?"

Both.  I suggest taking reading comprehension 101.
So for we of little comprehension who would reply if we knew what you point was, what is it?
Dont feed the trolls.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

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Ex-MA Hole

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« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2005, 08:25:26 AM »
Jumping in late in the fight, but...

Griz- looks like his point was to wind everyone up.

He won.
One day at a time.

telewinz

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« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2005, 02:22:45 PM »
I'm not saying a word. Nope not me.  I'm down to one forum.  Nope not me.  I'm turning red but nope, not me.  Oops, I must have passed out.  Not saying a word, biting my tongue.  Blood on the keyboard.  I know, I'll use sign lanquage.  Can't ban me for that...can they?  I feel better now.  A little light headed (loss of blood?).  Dang, that hamburger tastes awfully rare.  I know, I'll take a pill...maybe two.  Better.  What was the subject?  Oh yea!  Which is better the 9mm or the 45 ACP.  Now thats something I can really get into!
Career Corrections

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2005, 05:05:18 PM »
The .45 is way better.  Why?  Two big words called terminal ballistics.  Look 'em up.  

I just laugh when you nine-mill loyalists starting making all of your lame excuses.  Guess you all have more chromosomes than brain cells.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

The Rabbi

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« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2005, 05:45:38 PM »
Quote from: fistful
The .45 is way better.  Why?  Two big words called terminal ballistics.  Look 'em up.  

I just laugh when you nine-mill loyalists starting making all of your lame excuses.  Guess you all have more chromosomes than brain cells.
When Saddam was captured his only weapon was a 9mm pistol.  Shows how effective that is.
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Sindawe

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« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2005, 04:46:40 AM »
garrettwc: Thanks for the links.  I've only quickly scanned 'em (and those they cite) at this point.  Looks like violations of the conditions of the NPT in some cases, not proof of a weapons program, YET.

Art: As the Great Communicator is reputed to have said, "Trust, but verify".  The rub lies in that the same equipment needed to produce weapons grade fissionables is also the same equipment needed to produce fuel grade fissionalbles.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

roo_ster

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« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2005, 06:17:08 AM »
Sindawe:

I can see where you are coming from, especially with regard to wanting evidence that Iran is seeking nukes.

I would ask that you apply two things to the question: the "sniff test" and taking what the Iranians say seriously.

Sniff Test
The mullahs say that they have the same right as anybody else to produce energy, be it nuclear or what.  Now, why the heck would they want to boil water in the most expensive way known to man (nuclear fission) when they can boil it with an oil-fired plant or a natural gas fired plant...both of which are cheapcheapcheap in Iran? (BTW, water is boiled so that steam turbines can produce electricity.)  Both oil and fissionable materials are stores of energy.  A BTU is a BTU as far as the water cares.  It shouldn't matter where the BTU comes from...unless you want to also be able to unleash those BTUs in the most explosive and destructive way posible.  Then nukes are what you want.

Iran importing a nuclear program makes as much sense as Iowa importing corn from Holland or Texas importing beef from Nigeria.  

Taking What Dictators Say Seriously
Ever since I was a kid and learned that Adolf Hitler actually wrote down and published his objectives for all to read, I have wondered why we don't take the hostile utterings of dictators seriously.  Most come right out and say, "I want to rule over a larger area and will kill any and all who oppose me.  I'll also indisciminately kill neutral parties, to scare them into submissiveness."  They then go out and do those things they told us they would.

And the UN is shocked, (shocked!!) to discover that the psychopath dictator from Lower Slabbovia is warring on his neighbor to restore a "Greater Slobbovia."  Who would have known he was going to do THAT?!?!  I mean, yes, he said he would, but we expected that the hardened "realists" from the French and Belgian foreign ministries could head his machete-weilding supporters off at the faux pas.

In the case of the mullahs in Iran, their stated objective is worldwide Islamic government.  They openly support and foster terrorist movements around the world and openly declare their hatred for and desire to destroy both the Greater and Lesser Satans (USA & Israel).  Also, their new president (a terrorist who directed the seizure of hte American embassy in Iran in 1979) has stated Iran's desire for nuclear power.  In the mddle of the world's largest known oil reserves, lest we forget.

***********

Maybe we could not prove in an American court beyond a reasonable doubt that Iran is persuing nuclear weapons.  While it might be nice, relations between states are not governed by American court procedure.  The reality of relations between states is more akin to the law of the jungle the William Blackstome's Commentaries on the Laws of England. Waiting to pressure Iran until we can obtain such proof is a recipie for inaction and will lead to our being blackmailed the way the Norks are currently doing.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

garrettwc

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« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2005, 07:39:26 AM »
Quote
Thanks for the links.  I've only quickly scanned 'em (and those they cite) at this point.  Looks like violations of the conditions of the NPT in some cases, not proof of a weapons program, YET.
Fair enough.

Like the man said be polite, but all times keep yourself armed and ready. No need to send in the tanks right now, but it won't hurt us to give em a tune up and have them ready to go. Just in case.

K Frame

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« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2005, 11:30:40 AM »
"As the Great Communicator is reputed to have said, "Trust, but verify". "

No reputed about it.

He said it at a White House press conference with Gorbachev with several hundred members of the press (print, sound, and video) present. It's in at least one History Channel produced special on Reagan, as well as PBS' "American Experience: Reagan"

I watched that press conference live on CSpan, IIRC. The event was the 1987 signing of the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty.

He also stated it in his farewell address from the Oval Office on January 11, 1989.

"We must keep up our guard, but we must also continue to work together to lessen and eliminate tension and mistrust. My view is that President Gorbachev is different from previous Soviet leaders. I think he knows some of the things wrong with his society and is trying to fix them. We wish him well. And we'll continue to work to make sure that the Soviet Union that eventually emerges from this process is a less threatening one. What it all boils down to is this. I want the new closeness to continue. And it will, as long as we make it clear that we will continue to act in a certain way as long as they continue to act in a helpful manner. If and when they don't, at first pull your punches. If they persist, pull the plug. It's still trust but verify.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

stevelyn

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« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2005, 06:46:13 PM »
We're going to continue with the lesser evil until folks decide to leave the comfort zone of the two-peas-in-a-pod party, and start voting for candidates rather than for party or voting against specific candidates.
Be careful that the toes you step on now aren't connected to the ass you have to kiss later.

Eat Moose. Wear Wolf.

Silver Bullet

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« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2005, 06:50:18 PM »
How do you get around the fact that if I had voted third party, John Kerry might be nominating two Supreme Court justices right now ?

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« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2005, 12:07:09 AM »
Because some of us value the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments as much as we do the 2nd?

griz

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« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2005, 02:16:52 AM »
Quote
Now, why the heck would they want to boil water in the most expensive way known to man (nuclear fission) when they can boil it with an oil-fired plant or a natural gas fired plant...both of which are cheapcheapcheap in Iran?
Please don't take this as a defense of Iran, but the answer is the same as for the United States. The cheapest way to make electricity is with nuclear power. Yes oil is plentiful there, but it is in this country too. The oil they don't use to make electricity they can sell to us for a tidy profit.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2005, 04:12:57 AM »
Quote from: Barbara
Because some of us value the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments as much as we do the 2nd?
Might be the non-sequitur of the week.

Unless you are suggesting that Kerry (and his chocies) would be a better defender of 1,4,5thA rights.
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Silver Bullet

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« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2005, 04:50:35 AM »
Quote
Because some of us value the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments as much as we do the 2nd?
Don't forget the tenth !

I don't have more confidence in the Democrats having custody of the BOR than the Republicans; in fact, I have less.  

I can site numerous examples of the Democrats (or at least the Left) trampling all over the First Amendment, including censoring the Right with claims of not politically correct, hate speech,  and shouting them down at colleges; schoolbooks that list all of the BOR except the Second.

Fourth ?  I believe it was Clinton that wanted to confiscate all the weapons in a Chicago area low-income housing project, and was looking for ways to circumvent it.

What makes you think the Democrats would do better than the Republicans on this issue ?

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« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2005, 01:02:42 PM »
Quote
Because some of us value the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments as much as we do the 2nd?
I let that one go without commenting but since it has been brought up I'll pile on.

The only reason I have been hanging in there with the GOP is because of the court appointees.

The judges the Dems appoint are the tools of social engineering.  

Roberts doesn't inspire confidence, time will tell.  If this next appointment is weaker then him then I am done with the GOP.

If the Dems were making all these appointments we would already be farther along the road of euro socialism than we are.

Guest

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« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2005, 04:47:52 PM »
Because I don't see Bush as being any better than a Democrat on those issues. It's not that I like Democrats any better than Republicans, its that I can no longer tell the difference between the two.