And what is Aleppo?

[Fitz]

No,  it's not design.   We  haven't been able to get in touch with the reality of war since WW2.    We  think there is "nice" war and "horrible"  war.    ALL WAR IS   HORRIBLE.   Those men who island hopped in the Pacific in WW2  knew it.  Only the goal was honorable,  not the means to obtain it.  
And too many today can't hack it.   Even Bush the Junior.    I found that out when  he started bombing A-stan with food pallets  after those terrorists killed 3,000  Americans.
We   tried it your way once   before,  after  WW1.   It didn't  stop Hitler and it  didn't stop  Tojo from bombing Pear Harbor.   And  it also will not stop the next Hitlerojo from  attacking us.
"Only the  dead shall see the end of war."   ------- old Greek Philosopher.

so, your opinion then, is even though we can't actually do what is required to win, we should anyways, because "HITLER"

sigh.


K

[BlueStarLizzard]

Question?

For those that think it was Assad's generals and not Assad himself that ordered the attack, why does it matter that much in the big scheme of things? Presumably, Assad is responsible for the actions of his underlings, right? So, no matter if he actually did it or not, he's ultimately the one who has to take the heat for it.



and, for the record, I don't really know much about what the hell is going on (No, I had no idea what Aleppo was until the stupid Johnson thing *because* I wasn't paying attention to the Syrian thing) but I think the US needs to get involved in another middle east conflict like we need a hole in our heads.

[RoadKingLarry]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill

My view of the world is that it is just like a grade school play ground and the teacher(UN) is off around the corner sneaking a joint because they don't *expletive deleted*ing care as long as they get paid.
The bullies will kick the *expletive deleted*it out of the weaker kids and take their lunch money until they try that crap with someone that kicks the *expletive deleted*it out of them.
It is better to be known for fighting back effectively against the bullies, they'll leave you alone then.

Peace through superior fire power.

As to Syria though, I think we should have had a big pow wow with Putin and figured out a mutually agreeable way to settle the mess.

[Fitz]

My view of the world is that it is just like a grade school play ground and the teacher(UN) is off around the corner sneaking a joint because they don't *expletive deleted*ing care as long as they get paid.
The bullies will kick the *expletive deleted*it out of the weaker kids and take their lunch money until they try that crap with someone that kicks the *expletive deleted*it out of them.
It is better to be known for fighting back effectively against the bullies, they'll leave you alone then.

Peace through superior fire power.

that analogy falls apart when you try to "take down" the bully by arming, funding, and training legions of smaller bullies, then once the big bully is taken down, you skedaddle.

I would love for you to answer my question. How many times are we going to go down this road before you recognize that we're not currently capable of doing it?

[RoadKingLarry]

I agree with you that our feckless leaders don't have the gonads to do what needs to be done to do it right. And I'm all for letting a country settle their own internal differences any damn way they choose so long as they keep it inside their own borders.
On the other hand retreating to our own shores and letting things play out against our own interests and the interests of our allies won't end well either. We're seeing some of the end results of that type of thinking (thanks Obama) play out in the South China Sea with China.

Do we let the Norks develop the capability to nuke LA or HI or even South Korea or Japan?
Do we let the goatfuckers nuke Israel? Take over Egypt and shut down the Suez again?

[Fitz]

I agree with you that our feckless leaders don't have the gonads to do what needs to be done to do it right. And I'm all for letting a country settle their own internal differences any damn way they choose so long as they keep it inside their own borders.
On the other hand retreating to our own shores and letting things play out against our own interests and the interests of our allies won't end well either. We're seeing some of the end results of that type of thinking (thanks Obama) play out in the South China Sea with China.

Do we let the Norks develop the capability to nuke LA or HI or even South Korea or Japan?
Do we let the goatfuckers nuke Israel? Take over Egypt and shut down the Suez again?

First of all, I don't think that this situation is at all like nork nukes or iran nuking Israel. Once nukes are involved, then sending troops is moot, because there wont be much left to send troops TO.

And you know what? maybe that's part of the answer. Yes. Sit and let the bloodthirsty secular savages massacre the bloodthirsty Islamic savages. If either faction gets to the point where they can do appreciable harm to US, or the capability to deliver a nuke to US, then we obliterate them entirely.

What interests do we have in Syria? Other than, of course, filling Raytheon's coffers with missile orders.

The point is, we don't have the will, or the ability, to bring peace to Syria. What we DO have the will and ability to do, is maybe remove assad and let ISIS grow.

[RoadKingLarry]

Generally the shitshow  in Syria would fall under the let 'em sort it out except they aren't keeping things inside their own borders.
 

[Fitz]

Generally the shitshow  in Syria would fall under the let 'em sort it out except they aren't keeping things inside their own borders.
 

no, they spilled over into other places because of our LAST round of bullshit halfhearted intervention.

Assad had the war nearly won until the mysterious influx of arms and money.

and you know what? if Syrians kill their neighbors, same thing. Bloodthirsty savages killing other savages.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm of the opinion that the so called "Arab Spring" had it's roots in Obama's State Department. He owns the current state of affairs over there. The tribal savages have been killing each other pretty much since the dawn of time and I agree that we need to stay the hell out of it. Russia and China won't though.
We can be energy independent of the rest of the world, particularly the ME. We need to be.

[Fitz]

I'm of the opinion that the so called "Arab Spring" had it's roots in Obama's State Department. He owns the current state of affairs over there. The tribal savages have been killing each other pretty much since the dawn of time and I agree that we need to stay the hell out of it. Russia and China won't though.
We can be energy independent of the rest of the world, particularly the ME. We need to be.

We can do that without another middle eastern war

I'm glad u agree we should stay out of it

[Monkeyleg]

The only way to win in Syria, for starters, is to either fight Russia or get them to agree to let us fight Assad. I don't think the Russkies will agree to the latter, and we don't want the former.

[brimic]

Damn, Fitz is on fire today.
 

Neocons always delude themselves into thinking "gee if we just topple one more dictator, and put the right people in charge, it will be successful and the world will love us"

[Fitz]

Damn, Fitz is on fire today.
 

Neocons always delude themselves into thinking "gee if we just topple one more dictator, and put the right people in charge, it will be successful and the world will love us"

I apologize.

Let's just say this frustration and bitterness has been building up for a while.


I'll leave you with a thought as to why i'm mad: how bad must it be for a 17 year NCO with all stellar NCOERs to leave the military in disgust?

[brimic]

I apologize.

Let's just say this frustration and bitterness has been building up for a while.


I'll leave you with a thought as to why i'm mad: how bad must it be for a 17 year NCO with all stellar NCOERs to leave the military in disgust?

No, I'm on total agreement with you.all.the.way.

I had no idea you left the Army?

[RoadKingLarry]

I apologize.

Let's just say this frustration and bitterness has been building up for a while.


I'll leave you with a thought as to why i'm mad: how bad must it be for a 17 year NCO with all stellar NCOERs to leave the military in disgust?

A little bit worse than for a 12 year NCO with all stellar annual evals to leave the military in disgust

[TommyGunn]

so, your opinion then, is even though we can't actually do what is required to win, we should anyways, because "HITLER"

sigh.


K

That really isn't at all  what I said....or meant....but then,  I fear anyone who would take what I said and go where you did, is beyond understanding.    
Have a nice evening.

[dogmush]

The other thing folks that aren't as familiar with governments and countries in the mid east can't seem to wrap their heads around is this:

I'll posit that Assad is a brutal dictator that denies his people fundamental rights, murders and imprisons them, and has used chemical weapons against civilians while enforcing his power.  All that is true.


He's still better for Syrians than the "rebels" and the government they'll institute. 

Even if Syria weren't a shitshow already, and even if Russia wasn't involved so heavily that we're going to end up in a shooting war with them, and even if there was a chance (there isn't) we could get the rebels in power without genocide....Even if ALL THAT......We're on the wrong side of this one.

[230RN]

"On the other hand, lil Kim ought to take notice."

✔

"The idea is to keep those darklord dominated cesspools of humanity concerned that we will pay attention and do something,"

✔

That's the simplistic, naive, deplorable way I look at it, regardless of who did what to whom with which.  It was a carefully calculated move ready for when and where just the right situation came along.

MAGA

Terry

[Hawkmoon]

As one of the Vietnam generation (as well as an actual, boots on the ground Vietnam veteran), I'll just add another consideration -- warm bodies. When the U.S. first contemplated the invasion of Iraq, the then-Chief of the JCS told the administration that post-invasion we would need 300,000 pairs of boots on the ground to sustain the situation once we were in control. The administration fired him and decided it could be done with fewer than half that number.

What we have in the whole region now is a result of that decision.

The problem is that we didn't have 300,000 pairs of combat and combat support boots to throw into Iraq. And we have no way of ramping up to get that many because neither party has the gumption to reinstitute the draft. The millennial generation isn't interested. We have spent too many years teaching successive generations that there is no personal responsibility. Whatever the problem, it's always someone else's responsibility. (Which, of course, is why APS keeps Fistful around.) When I was in high school and college, the draft was there and it was simply accepted as a fact of life. When someone was actually drafted, there was no "Not my President!" grade moaning and kvetching, it was just a general sense of resignation ("Oh, well -- I almost dodged it.") That attitude of "It's not my responsibility" has become so deeply ingrained that neither party wants to risk the certain firestorm that would follow if we started up the draft again. As far as I know, the draft still exists on paper, but I'll bet most 18-year old male children (if there are any left who don't self-identify as Caitlyn Jenner or a leprechaun or a fir tree) don't even bother to register, and have no fear of being punished for that because they know they won't.

Having a draft card was so much a requirement in my day that when I was released from active service we were advised to have a copy of our DD-214 reduced to wallet size so we could carry that to show if we were asked for our draft card. I did that. Carrying that became so habitual that I still have it in my wallet today.

[230RN]

I still have my original draft card somewhere.  Hey, it says right on it to keep it.

[Blakenzy]

True. Not enough warm bodies to fullfill a neocon's dreams of world domination.

People won't accept a draft for the ME. American Citizens won't fight for that BS, NOTHING to win. There is a reason why the US Government has been increasingly reliant on mercenaries "contractors" and funding and arming terrorists "rebels" in an attempt to implement "foreign policy".

ISIS, eventhough being Islamic terrorists, are executing US foreign policy acting as an unwitting proxy army. They receive training and material support from key US allies. The war on terrror was and is a sham.

Assad "has to go" to further Israeli and Saudi interests. Saudi interests being a pipeline through Syria to Turkey, Israeli interests being bringing down an Iranian ally and furthering its own hegemony in the region. We want to further Saudi interests because their collaboration gives the petrodollar its value. We want to further israeli interests because... because... well I can't find any reasonable explanation for blindly supporting a religious zealot state.

[BlueStarLizzard]

True. Not enough warm bodies to fullfill a neocon's dreams of world domination.

People won't accept a draft for the ME. American Citizens won't fight for that BS, NOTHING to win. There is a reason why the US Government has been increasingly reliant on mercenaries "contractors" and funding and arming terrorists "rebels" in an attempt to implement "foreign policy".

ISIS, eventhough being Islamic terrorists, are executing US foreign policy acting as an unwitting proxy army. They receive training and material support from key US allies. The war on terrror was and is a sham.

Assad "has to go" to further Israeli and Saudi interests. Saudi interests being a pipeline through Syria to Turkey, Israeli interests being bringing down an Iranian ally and furthering its own hegemony in the region. We want to further Saudi interests because their collaboration gives the petrodollar its value. We want to further israeli interests because... because... well I can't find any reasonable explanation for blindly supporting a religious zealot state.

Well, I'm an foreign policy idiot and even I can answer that one.

Because that religious zealot state is one of the rare ones in the region that's half assed stable and doesn't hate us.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm neither an Israel expert, nor one of their most die-hard supporters. So please forgive me for asking, how is it a "religious zealot state"?

[Andiron]

 The millennial generation isn't interested. We have spent too many years teaching successive generations that there is no personal responsibility.

I'm of the opinion the Millennials got it right.  When I was in boot,  they harped on us being of the 1%  who cared enough to serve.  More fool us,  I guess.  Can you blame them for not giving a *expletive deleted*it about pointless wars we're not even trying to win?  Why even bother?


*please forgive the gratuitious cropping of your quote,  just wanted to address this point.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I'm neither an Israel expert, nor one of their most die-hard supporters. So please forgive me for asking, how is it a "religious zealot state"?

Yeah, I was a little confused about that as well, but decided to just not go there.