Author Topic: Hong Kong goes on Strike  (Read 6851 times)

SADShooter

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2014, 11:41:48 AM »
I think is hard for Americans to fathom that even amongst modern Japanese there exists a yearning for "the good old days"
They feel like they were "forced" into the new way


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Can you have both "the good old days" and a modern industrial economy/technological society?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2014, 11:46:50 AM »
I doubt it but I don't think it's a purely logical exercise. I was raised here and only one Japanese parent and I still got some indoctrination/inoculation in the principles involved


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RevDisk

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2014, 12:39:48 PM »
Can you have both "the good old days" and a modern industrial economy/technological society?

How many Americans yammer for "the good old days", which is generally some kind of idolized 1950's "Leave it to Beaver" notion.

They generally don't realize that ye old days weren't that great. It was more that "proper" folks didn't talk about the issues. Folks with any mental illness (to include rape or molestation victims) ended up institutionalized, plenty of diseases were not treatable, women and minorities had theoretical legal rights but in practice were often not allowed to use them, failure to win in Korea, blatantly illegal and unconstitutional domestic spying and internal security measures were being taken against Americans, etc.

Wishing life was the way it never was but rather what people intentionally misremember it to be is not an Asian concept, it's universal to all humans. It's found in every old codger who starts with "Back in my day".
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Tallpine

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2014, 01:11:41 PM »
So the Japanese still long for the days when they occupied most of East/Southeast Asia and the Pacific  ???  >:D
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Balog

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2014, 01:18:24 PM »
How many Americans yammer for "the good old days", which is generally some kind of idolized 1950's "Leave it to Beaver" notion.

They generally don't realize that ye old days weren't that great. It was more that "proper" folks didn't talk about the issues. Folks with any mental illness (to include rape or molestation victims) ended up institutionalized, plenty of diseases were not treatable, women and minorities had theoretical legal rights but in practice were often not allowed to use them, failure to win in Korea, blatantly illegal and unconstitutional domestic spying and internal security measures were being taken against Americans, etc.

Wishing life was the way it never was but rather what people intentionally misremember it to be is not an Asian concept, it's universal to all humans. It's found in every old codger who starts with "Back in my day".

So not much has changed then?  >:D
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SADShooter

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2014, 01:26:10 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/09/30/ebola-isis-beheadings-war-is-world-more-dangerous-than-ever/?intcmp=obnetwork

Money quote: "We wax nostalgic about the past, but the past was much nastier than today. Fifty years ago, most Americans my age … were already dead."
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2014, 01:45:13 PM »
So the Japanese still long for the days when they occupied most of East/Southeast Asia and the Pacific  ???  >:D

Some of them? Yes
More of them than are honest enough to admit it? Yes

I am too much of a family disgrace to ever ask em straight up but I often wonder if they think " if only the carriers had been at Pearl Harbor on Sunday  doggone it !"


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2014, 02:12:20 PM »
Some of them? Yes
More of them than are honest enough to admit it? Yes

I am too much of a family disgrace to ever ask em straight up but I often wonder if they think " if only the carriers had been at Pearl Harbor on Sunday  doggone it !"

They still would have lost. It just would have been uglier for all involved.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2014, 02:15:25 PM »
Hard to be sure but I would love your perspective on the how and why if you ever get the chance. It's a fascinating area for me and I learn more and more from folk about it every year.


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

SADShooter

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2014, 02:59:42 PM »
Hard to be sure but I would love your perspective on the how and why if you ever get the chance. It's a fascinating area for me and I learn more and more from folk about it every year.


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I'll give it a brief go. Better weapons, tactics, willingness and capacity to saturate threat zones with destruction, and personnel who understand the stakes. Fewer worries about street fighting if there's no street. Patton's urban tactics applied to Japanese construction.
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HankB

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2014, 04:24:55 PM »
I am too much of a family disgrace to ever ask em straight up but I often wonder if they think " if only the carriers had been at Pearl Harbor on Sunday  doggone it !"
And I sometimes find myself thinking "What if Fat Man and Little Boy equivalents could have been delivered by Jimmy Doolittle's group in April 1942?"
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Tallpine

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 04:52:45 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if they did us a favor at Pearl  =|

Would have been much more loss of life to sink those battleships in deep water, plus the loss of the salvage.
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roo_ster

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2014, 05:11:41 PM »
Hard to be sure but I would love your perspective on the how and why if you ever get the chance. It's a fascinating area for me and I learn more and more from folk about it every year.


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What SADShooter wrote.

Also, the USA would have made good the losses PDQ.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
Gawk at the "Warship Production" table.  See the column header "CV/CVL/CVE"?  Those are aircraft carriers of all sorts.  America produced 141 during WW2.  Japan produced 17.  By the end of 1942, the USA would have made good the losses of carriers at Pearl.

Quote
...the majority of the carriers listed in the U.S. totals were 'Jeep' carriers, CVEs carrying a couple dozen aircraft and suitable mostly for escort duties rather than front-line combat (which didn't subtract a whit from their effectiveness as antisubmarine or ground-support platforms). But it should also be noted that the American CVs on average operated substantially larger air wings than their Japanese counterparts (80-90 vs. 60-70 aircraft). The net result; by 1944, when Task Force 38 or 58 (depending on whether Halsey or Spruance was in charge of the main American carrier force at the moment) came to play, they could be counted upon to bring nearly a thousand combat aircraft with them.  That kind of power projection capability was crucial to winning the war -- we could literally bring more aircraft to the party than any island air base could put up in its own defense, as the neutralization of both Truk and the Marshall Islands attests.

Similar stats with cargo ships, destroyers, etc., etc.

Dude goes into a hypothetical.  Not "What if the Japs destroyed our Pacific Fleet carriers (Enterprise, Lexington, & Saratoga) at Pearl?" but,
Quote
...what difference would America's economic strength have made if the Americans had lost badly at the Battle of Midway? Let's take the worst case scenario (which, incidentally, was very unlikely, given our advantage of strategic surprise) in which a complete reversal of fortune occurs and the U.S. loses Enterprise, Yorktown, and Hornet, and Japan loses none of the four carriers which were present. After such a hypothetical battle

Quote
The question is, would losing Midway really have mattered? How long would it have taken America's shipyards to make good the difference and dig us out of the hole?

Note, we had three fleet carriers out & about in the Pacific when Pearl was attacked and the hypothetical assumes a loss of three fleet carriers.

Quote
In other words, even if it had lost catastrophically at the Battle of Midway, the United States Navy still would have broken even with Japan in carriers and naval air power by about September 1943. Nine months later, by the middle of 1944, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed a nearly two-to-one superiority in carrier aircraft capacity! Not only that, but with her newer, better aircraft designs, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed not only a substantial numeric, but also a critical qualitative advantage as well, starting in late 1943


Other interesting bits.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#Naval_forces

It would have taken longer and been nastier, but the end result would be the same. Japan was nuts to try to take on a first world country not already in existential extremis.  The Brits could have taken out Japan single-handedly if they were not worried about getting defeated by Germany.

I also think that America would have been even more sore and less willing to defer to FDR and the Brits by prioritizing Europe first.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2014, 05:25:30 PM »
Thanks


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2014, 05:28:08 PM »
I think their belief that nailing the carriers woulda been a game changer points to the flaw in their thinking. The belief that they alone can/swill fight and all will bow before their divine might. Again that's fed by the isolationism


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

SADShooter

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 06:02:37 PM »
I think their belief that nailing the carriers woulda been a game changer points to the flaw in their thinking. The belief that they alone can/swill fight and all will bow before their divine might. Again that's fed by the isolationism


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Sure, the flawed assumption that a catastrophic defeat would cause us to stop and sue for peace, failing to note the "just war" fury that Pearl provoked. Our carriers prevented the Japanese from pressing a strategic advantage that they couldn't have sustained anyway, for the reasons roo_ster stated.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 09:56:48 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Monkeyleg

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2014, 11:40:12 PM »
Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q919bQOThvM

It looks like there might be more people than were at the Million Mom March in DC in 2000.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 08:35:37 AM »
Scuffles with pro gov protestors? Where have we seen that before? Hang on to your hats boys and girls


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 02:18:06 PM »
I think their belief that nailing the carriers woulda been a game changer points to the flaw in their thinking. The belief that they alone can/swill fight and all will bow before their divine might. Again that's fed by the isolationism


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I have recently read several books/watched several films about Japan's military culture during the war.

The Japanese seem to have had a belief that in military engagements, they could triumph through a sheer exercise of will and bravery. This is why their commanders have often taken outright irrational gambles with the lives of tens of thousands of men. Add to this a culture that placed literally no value in the life of the individual soldier (think of how US pop culture sometimes portrays Russian commanders during WW2, except actually for real), and you will have a recipe for disaster. (During the last months of the war, Japanese generals were literally discussing a plan to exterminate women, children, and the elderly in the Home Islands to allow the men to fight to the death).

America prevailed because American commanders were infinitely more rational, and backed up by an industrial military machine that allowed them to produce more weapons reliably, while  progressively damaging the Japanese ability to produce and supply their own weapons more and more.

This meant that America was practically bound to win any long-term conflict with Japan.
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Scout26

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2014, 07:09:02 PM »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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for the motherland.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2014, 07:14:19 PM »
If the triads and other groups get involved it is about to get messy


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

tokugawa

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2014, 09:40:47 PM »
I have recently read several books/watched several films about Japan's military culture during the war.

The Japanese seem to have had a belief that in military engagements, they could triumph through a sheer exercise of will and bravery. This is why their commanders have often taken outright irrational gambles with the lives of tens of thousands of men. Add to this a culture that placed literally no value in the life of the individual soldier (think of how US pop culture sometimes portrays Russian commanders during WW2, except actually for real), and you will have a recipe for disaster. (During the last months of the war, Japanese generals were literally discussing a plan to exterminate women, children, and the elderly in the Home Islands to allow the men to fight to the death).

America prevailed because American commanders were infinitely more rational, and backed up by an industrial military machine that allowed them to produce more weapons reliably, while  progressively damaging the Japanese ability to produce and supply their own weapons more and more.

This meant that America was practically bound to win any long-term conflict with Japan.

 The Japanese had Takeda clan ideas-- they needed Oda Nobunaga. See Nagashino, battle of.

 or like an old Marine told once- "they came running down the beach screaming and waving their swords and we just cut them down with our Brownings and M-1's.
 he was a old China Marine, in at the start on Guadalcanal, out of the war by '42 due to disease- the tropics are not kind.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2014, 10:37:28 PM »
Those Japs were so cray cray! just a cheap attempt at boosting my "post count")
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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sanglant

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Re: Hong Kong goes on Strike
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2014, 10:42:23 PM »
Wasn't there also something about a massive tunnel system, that gave our guys some trouble? ???


And the old days were better, but not by as much as it looks like. Kinda like that meatloaf song. >:D