Author Topic: The Accidental Feminist Experiment  (Read 5780 times)

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Firethorn

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 12:57:59 AM »
The first problem I think of for these 'experiments' is that my immediate thought is that both groups are still products of the culture they come from.

Men are encouraged to be physical problem solvers, women more social problem solvers. 

Grab a bunch of Inuit women, for example, and you'd probably see the male college students shown up.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 01:40:21 PM by Firethorn »

makattak

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 08:11:32 AM »
The immediate problem I think of for these 'experiments' is that my immediate thought is that both groups are still products of the culture they come from.

Men are encouraged to be physical problem solvers, women more social problem solvers. 

Grab a bunch of Inuit women, for example, and you'd probably see the male college students shown up.

And, as you note, you're comparing cultures, not sexes. Put Inuit women and Inuit men up against each other for a comparable example.
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 09:56:46 AM »
The immediate problem I think of for these 'experiments' is that my immediate thought is that both groups are still products of the culture they come from.

Men are encouraged to be physical problem solvers, women more social problem solvers. 

Grab a bunch of Inuit women, for example, and you'd probably see the male college students shown up.

So, in the Dutch Survivor series, what social problem did the women solve that men did not?  And how many calories did it bring the group?  Or how many calories did it save by providing shelter from the elements?
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MechAg94

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 09:56:51 AM »
Can you really generalize when it comes to autocrats?  It all depends on the individual.  
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zxcvbob

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 10:34:55 AM »
So, in the Dutch Survivor series, what social problem did the women solve that men did not?  And how many calories did it bring the group?  Or how many calories did it save by providing shelter from the elements?

And, as you note, you're comparing cultures, not sexes. Put Inuit women and Inuit men up against each other for a comparable example.

Both good points.  Here's another: Inuit women are not the ones screeching "Down with the patriarchy"
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 10:38:02 AM »
Both good points.  Here's another: Inuit women are not the ones screeching "Down with the patriarchy"
And if they are it just sounds like"Tik Tik Tuk Cluck"anyways so who cares? :P :P >:D >:D
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Ron

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 10:41:44 AM »
this made me think of this blog article I read some time back

http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/17/what-would-happen-if-no-men-showed-up-for-work-today/
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 10:44:46 AM »
this made me think of this blog article I read some time back

http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/17/what-would-happen-if-no-men-showed-up-for-work-today/

A classic, worthy of periodic revisiting.
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Firethorn

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 01:47:14 PM »
And, as you note, you're comparing cultures, not sexes. Put Inuit women and Inuit men up against each other for a comparable example.

Good point.  Going by my recent museum visit that showed the differing roles, you'd end up with the women having a tent and a good start on food storage.  The men would have a boat(or a tent that looks like a boat) and steaks.

Taking them from the north down to the tropics probably means that both would be dealing with wanting to run around nekid because it's too hot out.

So, in the Dutch Survivor series, what social problem did the women solve that men did not?  And how many calories did it bring the group?  Or how many calories did it save by providing shelter from the elements?

Increase the size of the group, increase the duration of the 'test', and include men so the physical side is taken care of and you'd start seeing the value.

KD5NRH

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 03:41:22 PM »
Increase the size of the group, increase the duration of the 'test', and include men so the physical side is taken care of and you'd start seeing the value.

This is something I've wanted to see done by the "reality" shows for a while; let's look at what they've done.
Survivorman: one guy who knows what he's doing
Man vs Wild: urine consumption and marketing
Dual Survival: two experienced guys who with differing, but both effective, approaches
Man, Woman, Wild: family unit (realism there) one of which has vast survival skills and the other who would be marginal on a picnic
Surviving Nugent: throw random unsuspecting people into a very limited survival situation

MWW is sort of a favorite of these; you at least have one "average" person, and she usually has the right attitude, if little skill or strength to use it, and Mykel keeps harping on "always carry a lighter" and how much more comfortable they would have been had making fire been a 5-minute, reliable process instead of an hour or more just trying to get a spark.
DS was great, but had the problem they all do; experienced survivalists wouldn't have been in that situation without at least a pocket full of more useful stuff than they're allowed.  I do wish they'd been a little more clear on crew involvement, though.  (Things like bringing along a dead rabbit for them to find, etc. Not necessarily a big orange "ARTIFICIALLY PROVIDED" sticker, but a little note in the credits would have set people's expectations more realistically.)  Also, Dave was about right on the "get 'er done" mentality, where in a real survival situation, Joe would be a disaster waiting to happen, for the same reason Bear Grylls always was; unnecessary risks when you don't have a medical crew on standby are just a good way to get people killed.  I think Matt was better at just pointing that out, rather than Cody's blowups.

I'd like to see something more like Frontier House without the house; grab a carload of normal people who think they're just driving through the area, and offer them money (and handling of other issues like pay off their boss or whatever) to just shut down the car in the middle of your designated area with the supplies they packed for the trip (plus anything else they can scavenge from the car) and survive until rescue or self rescue.  Not "for no apparent reason you have a full pack of cigs but only one damp paper match and otherwise completely empty pockets while day hiking through the jungle," but "during an activity you did expect and prepare for, the situation changed in a realistic way, so deal with it now."

Sure, that would be boring as hell with survival experts, who probably don't walk to the mailbox with as little as they were provided for the shows, (Not that I would necessarily mind a "Dave Canterbury goes on an unexpected long hunt without his big tent, instead of just cruising through to Pittsburgh like he thought" show, but that's more specialty outdoors than survival as most people think of it.) but somebody like most of us would have a basic kit in the trunk, and be able to make a decent show of it, in comfort comparable to some of the better situations on those shows. 

As far as learning, IMO, it's a more practical scenario in that it would show people what a little simple, cheap preparation can do to make your situation drastically more comfortable and survivable, and should hit a little closer to home for many.  I know I considered the Okavanga Delta episodes that several of the shows had to be more entertainment than education, because the odds of me finding myself there unexpectedly are slightly lower than the odds of Star Trek teleporters becoming practical and economical in my lifetime.  I'm not going to get lost on the way from Stephenville to Dallas and find myself broken down in Africa.  If I were going there, I would adjust my emergency load accordingly.  For education value, the more similar the scenario location is to the environments I plan to travel through, the more I pay attention and take notes.  The more time a skill requires to master, the less likely that it will be useful as I have to use most of my time to make a living in other ways.

I'd love to see (or make) a "surviving Texas" show based on the above idea, for just that reason.  Drop me at a remote campsite in the Hill Country, with just the stuff I'd have left at the end of a weekender, (food already eaten, waterproof match container only has 39 matches left, tent smells like socks, etc.) except that I have to wear a leg splint and either hobble out a half-day (uninjured time) hike to my car or survive and signal for rescue, or ditch me with a broken down car (with my usual car load for a desert drive) on the most remote backroad in Big Bend, or even splint my ankle halfway through a planned hike of Telephone Canyon  and let's see how it goes.  (Many of my more likely situations wouldn't make for any show at all; breaking down on I-20 and flagging down a car within five minutes ain't exactly mad survival skillz.)

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 08:32:09 PM »
I'm going to point out that the majority of woman who would sign up for Survivor are not exactly the same type of woman who know how to get their rears in gear and get *expletive deleted*it done.

They tend to be the type that wants five minutes of fame and maybe a reality show romance with some hunky dude with more hair than wit.
Not to mention that show is more social game than actually surviving in the wild.

With that in mind, it's pretty spot on article in terms of how western woman differ from western men in terms of functioning as a group.
Plus, it illustrates why some of us are a minority amount our own gender (because the majority HATES the one female who doesn't agree)
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 08:35:24 AM »
I'm going to point out that the majority of woman who would sign up for Survivor are not exactly the same type of woman who know how to get their rears in gear and get *expletive deleted* it done.

They tend to be the type that wants five minutes of fame and maybe a reality show romance with some hunky dude with more hair than wit.
I thought about making that point, but wouldn't the same be true of guys who sign up for a reality show?

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 09:37:02 AM »
I thought about making that point, but wouldn't the same be true of guys who sign up for a reality show?

Not entirely. I've watched the show before. I actually made it through a whole season once.

The guys tend to be as attracted to the physical side of the game (challenges and living in the wild) as they are the attention/fame/showmance. There's usually at least one lazy guy who does the social game, but he either gets the boot early or has the girls protect him (strength in numbers)

and there is usually one girl who is the same as the majority of the guys, but I'm guessing if this Dutch season had one, she got bullied or ignored by the others and voted out early.

And there have been seasons with the mixed groups, where the woman in the group busted tail for a nice camp and the guys lazed about and were jerks.

*shrug* The contestants are generally picked on the criteria of who will cause the most conflict and look pretty on the camera, not for skills, and the majority of the guys are always pretty muscle bound active types.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2014, 11:35:40 PM »
Since I only see cable shows when I'm at a hotel, I saw a survival show with about four or five regular dudes "surviving" both as a group and solo. I think it was called Old Guy Survival, or something. Seemed pretty decent, for that kind of show.

Anybody know that show?
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HankB

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 09:11:14 AM »
"Survivor" is still on?

I watched part of the premiere, several years ago . . . I quit when I saw it was less about survival in the wild and more about contrived drama between a bunch of annoying people.

Too many shows are like that - even "Top Shot" which I consider to be a half-hour shooting show shoehorned into a one-hour time slot. (I watch that, but a VCR lets me bypass the commercials and bogus "drama" they use as filler.)
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2014, 09:40:08 AM »
I watched part of the premiere, several years ago . . . I quit when I saw it was less about survival in the wild and more about contrived drama between a bunch of annoying people.

This.  One of the better things about MWW was that the drama was normal husband/wife drama, without anything special added, and both got over their blowups fairly quickly and got back to the task at hand.  I'm sure there was some more bickering off camera from time to time, but it wasn't made the main focus of most episodes.

Balog

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2014, 03:23:48 PM »
I'll just note that pick up artist sites like Return of Kings have about the same view of women as the Southern Poverty Law Center has of militia groups. Some of their information is accurate, but keep the source in mind.
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2014, 03:58:25 PM »
Survivor is Big Brother without the house.
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 11:11:08 AM »

I am shocked and offended by that article.


I saw this and had to share.

http://www.returnofkings.com/32053/this-accidental-experiment-shows-the-superiority-of-patriarchy

I dock the author ten science points.
- Lack of control
- Selection bias
- Small sample size or "Anecdote is not data", take your pick
- Extremely poor sample selection methodology (intentional skewing of results likely)
- Was not repeated. Science is repeatability. No repeat? No science.

Need I continue?

These were not randomly or controlled selection. The producers intentionally snagged folks that fit whatever demographics they thought would sell the most. So, it's not an 'accidental experiment'. It's what happens when producers (or casting agents) select a pool of guys that apparently are willing to work together and a pool of women that are not.

Bad science terminology is bad science, and it should not be tolerated.

The author should be absolutely ashamed. Ritualistic disembowelment is recommended. I can excuse such things as lack of rigor due to restraints, but this is beyond the pale. It's an "amusing anecdote, of absolutely no scientific or statistical validity" rather than "accidental experiment".


Hrmph!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 11:17:35 AM by RevDisk »
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Balog

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 11:16:05 AM »
I dock you ten science points.
- Lack of control
- Selection bias
- Small sample size or "Anecdote is not data"
- Extremely poor sample selection methodology
- Was not repeated. Science is repeatability. No repeat? No science.

Need I continue?

These were not randomly or controlled selection. The producers intentionally snagged folks that fit whatever demographics they thought would sell the most. So, it's not an accidental experiment. It's what happens when producers (or casting agents) select a pool of guys that apparently are willing to work together and a pool of women that are not.

This is "amusing anecdote", not "accidental experiment".
Bad science terminology is bad science, and it should not be tolerated.

The author should be absolutely ashamed. Ritualistic disembowelment is recommended. I can excuse such things as lack of rigor, but this is beyond the pale.

You believe the bold part ot be universally true Rev? Cause I bet I can think of a few things that are not observable, repeatable, or subject to control that get a pass as science...
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RevDisk

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 11:21:31 AM »
You believe the bold part ot be universally true Rev? Cause I bet I can think of a few things that are not observable, repeatable, or subject to control that get a pass as science...

Repeatability is the gold standard. Real world constraints always crimp that standard. We can't nova a star on demand, or run the same experiment on mice twenty billion times. Also, sometimes it's not about repeating a past event, but using on-going tests to prove the viability of a particular model (such as the expansion of the universe). 

But I'm at a loss of things that are not observable, repeatable or subject to control that are considered serious science.
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 11:29:33 AM »
Bad science terminology is bad science, and it should not be tolerated.

However, the proper way to refute bad science is by repeating the experiment in the proper manner.  Do you need a list of deserted islands?

Ron

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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 12:29:31 PM »
In my circle of friends and acquaintances I could easily select a group of women that would kick ass and take names in a survival situation. Of course I hang out with a lot of backpackers/mountaineering folks, folks who go on week long and longer paddling trips in the wilderness, folks who have through hiked the long trails etc.

There is nothing intrinsic other than a mans brute strength that makes women less able compared to men in survival situations. I think our culture, love it or hate it, just plays to our genders strengths and biological inclinations. So in many cases women aren't as prepared via nurture more so than simply nature. Nobody questions the strength of early frontier women who stepped up and helped occupy and tame the west for instance.  

 
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Re: The Accidental Feminist Experiment
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 12:31:20 PM »
After pondering it a bit more and reading the conversation, I think it's indeed likely that there's a lot of behind the scenes selection bias.  I can't help but think that there's a tendency towards 'eye candy' - which generally means boobs for women, abs for men.  Don't forget personalities specifically chosen for conflict.

Still, doing a 'proper' study of this sort is actually pretty hard.  So we have an anecdote, how do we turn this into a more realistic test?  There will pretty much always be flaws in methodology.

My idea would be to post an ad for summer employment in a 'research study' at one or more universities and pull the applications to hire out of a 'hat'*.  Put that it'll be 'in a remote location' and 'under field/primitive conditions', but that 'provisions will be provided'.

For subsequent experiments try things like contacting the local temp/hiring agency for a range of ages and education levels.  I tend to pick on college students a lot because they're cheaper than monkeys, and often even cheaper than rats or mice.  ;)

I think our culture, love it or hate it, just plays to our genders strengths and biological inclinations. So in many cases women aren't as prepared via nurture more so than simply nature.

Yes, in addition there would be factors involving the selection of people for a 'show' as opposed to a proper cross-section of the population or specific demographic groups. 

Plus, in real world events, as the trials became more severe their advantages in a survival type situation, such as surviving famine, might become more obvious.  I remember several cases of starvation and resorting to cannibalism to survive having many more women survive than men.  of course, that could also be culture having men give up calories before the women.  Even the Donner party - of the 34 who died at Truckee Lake, 25 were men, only 9 female. 


*IE utilize a proper RNG.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:41:09 PM by Firethorn »