Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on November 18, 2020, 08:57:10 AM
-
Looks like this would be a top item in a Biden admin (relevant quotes for those that don't login to the ET):
One of the 15 policies listed in Biden’s COVID-19 response plan is forgiving $10,000 in student loans.
Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) said earlier this month that a Biden White House should in its first 100 days erase $50,000 of student debt for each person, pointing to a proposal he put forth with Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.)
“I have a proposal with Elizabeth Warren that the first $50,000 of debt be vanquished, and we believe that Joe Biden can do that with the pen as opposed to legislation,” Schumer told MSNBC analyst Anand Giridharadas.
Schumer said he envisioned Biden’s first 100 days looking like President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s first few months in office. Student debt is related to income equality, he added.
Biden also said "free education for anyone making under $125K". Which I guess he would have to do via legislation, vs pen, so it will count on what happens with the Senate seats.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-calls-for-immediate-congressional-action-on-student-loan-forgiveness_3583933.html?utm_source=share-btn-copylink
This pisses me off to no end. I put off my education for nearly ten years while I worked in the oil fields and the county dump from 18 to 27, saving money for college, and then paying my way through undergrad and grad school with no loans (I did receive one small academic scholarship, and had my grad tuition reduced 75% because I TA'd and taught lab sections ). But hey, let's start kids off in life with the ideas that anything they want is free, and if it's not free, they can just blow off their debt with no consequences.
If they want to work on the student loan problem, as we have discussed here before, first investigate universities that charge $200 for a *expletive deleted*ing text book, well overpay their professors, and toss millions of dollars into ridiculous non-academic SJW bullshit. Then quit making "blue collar" and "trade school" dirty words. Also stop insisting people need a PhD for lower level tech positions. Trump has now taken care of the latter problem in the Civil Service. I expect 46 to reverse it if he gets in. Not paying kids to take "SJW studies" classes goes without saying.
-
we believe that Joe Biden can do that with the pen as opposed to legislation
I don't think so, but I have been wrong about that before. Both Obama & Trump went farther with their pens than I though possible or prudent, I expect Biden will only continue that unfortunate trend.
-
Forgive student debt and then make it illegal to make young adults debt slaves to the banks for their education.
I suspect most here have a net worth after subtracting the debt.
That is not the norm.
People carrying a lot of debt are easier to influence and control.
Trump should forgive student debt in his second term.
-
“I have a proposal with Elizabeth Warren that the first $50,000 of debt be vanquished, and we believe that Joe Biden can do that with the pen as opposed to legislation,”
Vanquished? That makes it sound like they have magical power.
Maybe they do, with the stroke of a pen they can take money from future taxpayers and give it to people who spend faster than they earn.
-
This is a problem that was really caused by government. When the government backed student loans, they enabled everyone involved to make poor decisions. Now we're trying to solve it with more government.
I took on student loan debt to complete my bachelors in IT. My family didn't have much income, but they did have savings in the form of real estate, which guaranteed I got no help. I ended up about $40k in the hole. I considered it my most toxic debt, and prioritized paying it off. Guess the joke was on me.
-
So, are they going to reimburse those who played Responsible Adult and paid their student loans?
Brad
-
This is a problem that was really caused by government. When the government backed student loans, they enabled everyone involved to make poor decisions. Now we're trying to solve it with more government
^^^this is what started the mess. Question is, how are they going to pay for it? Higher taxes, more loans from China? All I see is more free *expletive deleted*it in the backs of taxpayers
-
Govt gets involved
Costs soar
People start expecting govt to pay for it. aka Make it free
-
So, are they going to reimburse those who played Responsible Adult and paid their student loans?
Brad
:rofl:
-
This is a problem that was really caused by government.
I agree government had a major hand in this. Similar to the mortgage "crisis", where thanks to the likes of Barney Franks, banks had to give loans to people who didn't qualify, then played "hot potato" with those toxic loans.
I just don't believe more government is the answer. The students that took out high five-figure to mid-six-figure loans made poor choices, the same as people who took out ginormous loans to buy way more house than they could afford.
Government may have had a major hand, but if Uncle Sam tells me to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge to get to a pot of gold, I'm gonna use my brain and say "no". People have to take some responsibility for being suckers, and I just don't believe more government interference is the right answer, especially when it leaves me holding someone else's bag.
-
Saw something a few days ago where some congress critters wanted this tied to race as part of reparations.
-
Looks like this would be a top item in a Biden admin (relevant quotes for those that don't login to the ET):
Biden also said "free education for anyone making under $125K". Which I guess he would have to do via legislation, vs pen, so it will count on what happens with the Senate seats.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-calls-for-immediate-congressional-action-on-student-loan-forgiveness_3583933.html?utm_source=share-btn-copylink
This pisses me off to no end. I put off my education for nearly ten years while I worked in the oil fields and the county dump from 18 to 27, saving money for college, and then paying my way through undergrad and grad school with no loans (I did receive one small academic scholarship, and had my grad tuition reduced 75% because I TA'd and taught lab sections ). But hey, let's start kids off in life with the ideas that anything they want is free, and if it's not free, they can just blow off their debt with no consequences.
If they want to work on the student loan problem, as we have discussed here before, first investigate universities that charge $200 for a *expletive deleted*ing text book, well overpay their professors, and toss millions of dollars into ridiculous non-academic SJW bullshit. Then quit making "blue collar" and "trade school" dirty words. Also stop insisting people need a PhD for lower level tech positions. Trump has now taken care of the latter problem in the Civil Service. I expect 46 to reverse it if he gets in. Not paying kids to take "SJW studies" classes goes without saying.
I agree that blue color/trade school shouldn't be a dirty term. It should be embraced because most of those jobs will pay more than most jobs requiring a 4 year degree. We also shouldn't make trade unions a dirty word either, bring back the apprentice programs but police the crap put of union leadership to reduce the corruption. Make it illegal for a union to endorse a political candidate or party.
If you are college bound, how about 2-5 years of federal service before school and you get free college, military, peace corp, ameri-corp, forest service, etc. Each year of service gets you one year free at a public university, or each year gets you 2 years at a community college.
In regards to student loan forgiveness, don't make it a blank check. Set up stipulations where it is paid off in a 5 or 10 year period if you meet the criteria, such as working public sector or working in rural area that is in need of people with you education. Set up tax advantages for businesses to pay down student loan debt in a 5-10 year period in with annual installments. Freeing up what people are paying on student loans would be a huge infiltration of money into the economy.
I don't think you can do anything about a $200 text book, that is set by the publisher and laws of supply and demand kick in, it's not cheap to make a book that isn't going to mass produced, like a NY Times Bestseller. Authors of text books need to get paid for their time.
I'm not to concerned about faculty getting paid too much, at least in the Midwest. Where they need to clean house is the administration, many admin jobs don't require a PhD but PhDs seem to surround themselves with PhDs.
I think the SJW classes varies form school to school, I did the university thing twice, both degrees were 16 years apart. In the 90s everyone at the University of Northern Iowa had to take an ethics class related to their major and environmental science class to graduate. In the 2010s, at Iowa State University, everyone had to take 6 credits from a menu of classes of 3 credit of non western civ and 3 credits of ethics/diversity class. I didn't find the ethics/diversity class that bad, there was no whitey male sucks/white privilege, just an awareness that in your career you are going to have to work with people that are different that you (ethic, sex, religion, personalities, etc.) and don't be an ahole to them.
You had an unique situation where you could get a job that you could make enough money to pay for school. I remember when I graduated from HS and my plan was to join the Navy and use that to pay for college. Went for my physical and I was rejected due to a heart murmur. I ended up working in a factory as a MIG monkey making $6 an hour in 1992, driving 45 minutes one way to work. I was happy to have a full time job (no benefits) and folks let me live at home, the Midwest was really hit by that recession and unemployment was really high in my part of the tri-state area (IA-MO-IL). The chip and grind crew paid minimum wage of $4.25/hr, so I felt fortunate. Most of the factories/shops in my home area paid min to $5/hr to start at the time, labor market was saturated so they could pay what they wanted. I don't think I could of saved up enough money for a year at a University on that and still commute to work. I did manage to save up enough to pay in cash for a 2 year degree at the local community college, luckily my parents let me live at home rent free. I did go to the University after that on student loans, because I had no money and my parents weren't shitting out gold coins either. When I graduated the mid 90s boom was just ending and jobs were scarce, then the .com bust happened. My first couple years of employment were pretty rough and I had a hard time just paying bills each month on $20k/year (no health insurance), I ended up working at a gas station 2 nights a week and every weekend for a year just to get ahead a bit. If I got sick I would of been screwed. Things got a lot better for me in Dec 2002 when I got hired by Iowa State University.
Now lets look at the millennial, they started going to college/starting careers during the great recession also they were going to school at the time tuition increases were double digits due to reduced funding from states and feds, not a great start, some are still trying to dig themselves out, now we have 9 months of Covid, another hit on that generation. They don't need a blank check, but a plan to forgiveness/payoff would be a good thing for the future economy.
I also agree that the degree inflation needs to stop, not sure how to do that without some serious governmental action on private and public employment.
-
I would not be in favor of forgiveness, but would be in favor of being able to discharge student loan debt through bankruptcy. Under current law, you cannot discharge student debt via bankruptcy.
-
If you are college bound, how about 2-5 years of federal service before school and you get free college, military, peace corp, ameri-corp, forest service, etc. Each year of service gets you one year free at a public university, or each year gets you 2 years at a community college.
In regards to student loan forgiveness, don't make it a blank check. Set up stipulations where it is paid off in a 5 or 10 year period if you meet the criteria, such as working public sector or working in rural area that is in need of people with you education. Set up tax advantages for businesses to pay down student loan debt in a 5-10 year period in with annual installments. Freeing up what people are paying on student loans would be a huge infiltration of money into the economy.
I don't think you can do anything about a $200 text book, that is set by the publisher and laws of supply and demand kick in, it's not cheap to make a book that isn't going to mass produced, like a NY Times Bestseller. Authors of text books need to get paid for their time.
I'm not to concerned about faculty getting paid too much, at least in the Midwest. Where they need to clean house is the administration, many admin jobs don't require a PhD but PhDs seem to surround themselves with PhDs.
I agree with most of this. I think we're going to get stuck with some kind of "forgiveness", and it would hurt less for taxpayers, and teach the students some life lessons, if they had to do something worthwhile in exchange for their bailout. I also am in favor of some "public works" trade for tuition for students that want to go to college and need help.
I'm pretty sure most textbooks are electronic now, and often written by professors that teach the discipline . They could self-publish and contribute to their students' education by offering the book for less.
I agree pay does vary by location, but administrators and some useless staff (e.g., diversity administrators) are overpaid everywhere, and many of them are simply not needed.
-
I would not be in favor of forgiveness, but would be in favor of being able to discharge student loan debt through bankruptcy. Under current law, you cannot discharge student debt via bankruptcy.
I might be okay with this if like many other types of bankruptcies, it killed their credit score and ability to get loans, etc. for some years, so that they might get a "pay as you go" education. Sometimes you need a stick instead of a carrot.
-
[thinks about what I had to give up to get my post 9-11 GI bill, which I haven't been able to use yet]
[thinks about the 14 years I worked 3 jobs and 70-90 hrs a week to save up, pay for wife's degree, and have some retirement savings]
[thinks about the years I spent upside down in ship bilges in 100 degree heat honing skills that let me make a modest income now]
*expletive deleted*ck those kids. *expletive deleted*ck those colleges. *expletive deleted*ck those little whiny brats that, at 18 god damn years old, couldn't be bothered to make even the slightest prediction about how much they might make vs. how much this school cost. Let them live till they're 50 with their useless, enabling, "I want to be my kid's best friend" parents until the parents die and the home is foreclosed on.
This is, literally, a way for the government to use force to steal money from me and give it to people who, statistically, are going to make more money then I do now, and yet are simultaneously to *expletive deleted*ing retarded to make any kind of reasonable financial decision.
If you have a degree that won't get you a job, or does get you a job that doesn't pay enough to pay off that degree in 5-7 years, you are retarded and shouldn't have financed that degree. Related: don't get an 8 year car loan on a depreciating asset or a 30 year boat loan.
*expletive deleted*ck 'em. Starve on the street corner, oxygen thieves.
If ANYONE has to come off of money to solve this bullshit manufactured "crisis" it should be the colleges and their endowments.
-
So, are they going to reimburse those who played Responsible Adult and paid their student loans?
Brad
No, because that just shows how white privileged we are, so we're going to be hit with punitive taxes so that little Johnny Manbun can be free of the $100,000 he spent for a degree in Monglian interpretative dance.
-
How about residential mortgage forgiveness? Why should those deadbeat college students have all the fun?
;)
-
How about residential mortgage forgiveness? Why should those deadbeat college students have all the fun?
;)
Well, housing is a basic human right, just like free child care, free health care, free college, free food, free internet access.
After all, we could afford all of it if we would make one billionaire pay his FAIR SHARE...
-
Well, housing is a basic human right, just like free child care, free health care, free college, free food, free internet access.
After all, we could afford all of it if we would make one billionaire pay his FAIR SHARE...
Free guns too
-
A debt jubilee that banished the international banksters could be fun =D
Americans love the status quo and their chains.
I doubt anything will change that dramatically.
Whomever is holding the note(s) aren't going to slink away into the night quietly.
They will demand theirs plus the juice.
-
Free guns too
Eh? Think the usual line is that guns should be bought back as firearms related violence continues to plague our communities and disproportionately impacts socioeconomically disadvantaged groups and racial minorities.
How about residential mortgage forgiveness? Why should those deadbeat college students have all the fun?
;)
Don't give them ideas. That would royally screw up the real estate market.
-
Don't give them ideas. That would royally screw up the real estate market even more than it is already.
Slight modification.
-
The whole student loan debacle was/is a con.
Many, not all but many, were sold a story that was never going to happen.
They flooded the colleges with people that had no business being in college. They didn't have the background, intellectual firepower or self discipline to succeed.
I agree paying off the con men out of the treasury is a non-starter.
The con men will never be brought to justice, the closest we could hope to get is making them eat the loss.
-
How about residential mortgage forgiveness? Why should those deadbeat college students have all the fun?
;)
Hell, I could almost be happy with a mortgage loan interest forgiveness, after all it;s a fair compromise.
bob
-
So, are they going to reimburse those who played Responsible Adult and paid their student loans?
Brad
No, they'll raise taxes on those people since, now being debt free, they now have the ability to help others - you know, from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.
-
Eh? Think the usual line is that guns should be bought back as firearms related violence continues to plague our communities and disproportionately impacts socioeconomically disadvantaged groups and racial minorities.
Fun hater. ;)
-
I owe $9k student loans. It’s my debt to bear and repay. I wasn’t held at gunpoint to take them out.
Forgive it and you are rewarding the legions of students who took out the student loans, stayed in class long enough to get the surplus reimbursement that was intended for books and supplies, then dropped out and rinsed and repeated for as many years as they could do so. They spent that money like it was going out of style*. You aren’t paying for the people who used loans responsibility and went to work with their degree responsibly, you are paying for the same loser *expletive deleted*s that wasted your time in high school being idiots and then went on to do idiot things afterwards.
*Plus the bookstores sell flat screen TVs, gaming consoles, and gaming PCs plus other high dollar consumer electronics, all for an inflated price and you can buy it all with student loan money. So the universities tacitly approve of these actions.
-
Vanquished? That makes it sound like they have magical power.
Sounds more like they have a sword and lance, and they think they're fighting dragons.
-
So, are they going to reimburse those who played Responsible Adult and paid their student loans?
Brad
No, because those people were just exercising their toxic white privilege.
-
Free guns too
Finally, a government program I can support.
-
Finally, a government program I can support.
It does say "shall not be infringed" and money can be considered an infringement to that right. Just saying
-
*Plus the bookstores sell flat screen TVs, gaming consoles, and gaming PCs plus other high dollar consumer electronics, all for an inflated price and you can buy it all with student loan money. So the universities tacitly approve of these actions.
Hmm ... I didn't know that.
Now that I do ... :mad:
or maybe ... [ar15]
-
I do find it interesting that so many other First World countries provide higher education to their citizens at low or very heavily-subsidized tuition rates. And yet we cannot. One of the fundamental tenets of economic growth is to invest in human capital since healthy and educated citizens generally help the economy and country to grow and prosper. The devil is in the details, but does the US really pay attention to investing in our human capital, I wonder.
-
I do find it interesting that so many other First World countries provide higher education to their citizens at low or very heavily-subsidized tuition rates. And yet we cannot. One of the fundamental tenets of economic growth is to invest in human capital since healthy and educated citizens generally help the economy and country to grow and prosper. The devil is in the details, but does the US really pay attention to investing in our human capital, I wonder.
That's some bullshit socialist talk there, you Commie! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
I do find it interesting that so many other First World countries provide higher education to their citizens at low or very heavily-subsidized tuition rates. And yet we cannot. One of the fundamental tenets of economic growth is to invest in human capital since healthy and educated citizens generally help the economy and country to grow and prosper. The devil is in the details, but does the US really pay attention to investing in our human capital, I wonder.
A lot of other countries have highly educated people doing no, or menial, labor1 too. Just because an investment was made does not mean it was a good investment, or that it will provide any return. Frankly, in a country of 320 million people there is a lot of human capitol that isn't worth giving much more than a high school2 education to. Our system isn't perfect by any means, but until recently it was at least understood that if you wanted to gamble on yourself and your worth as human capital you did it with YOUR money. You could get an advance on YOUR money (from presumed future earnings) but you were still betting your assets on yourself. Now that a couple hundred thousand people have lost that bet they suddenly want to act surprised that it was their money they were betting, and the rest of us, that made better investments, are somehow morally responsible to cover their losses? Why?
Or alternatively, if I have to pay off student loans with my taxes, do I get a say in what degrees people get loans for going forward? Should the state provide acceptable degrees and quotas for them to finance? Wouldn't that be the smart way to "invest" in human capital, not willy nilly what kids are interested in, but what we need?
1. Or those country import poor people to do the menial labor that their educated citizens are no longer willing to. The migrant labor programs in the Mid-East are truly eye-opening in this regard,
2. High school level as it meant thirty years ago or so, not this "no Child Left Behind" functional illiteracy we get at 12th grade now.
-
"Just because an investment was made does not mean it was a good investment, or that it will provide any return."
But... BUT FREE EDUCATION! IT'S A HUMAN RIGHT!
Yep. Spot on.
-
I do find it interesting that so many other First World countries provide higher education to their citizens at low or very heavily-subsidized tuition rates. And yet we cannot. One of the fundamental tenets of economic growth is to invest in human capital since healthy and educated citizens generally help the economy and country to grow and prosper. The devil is in the details, but does the US really pay attention to investing in our human capital, I wonder.
I don't know the number, but I would be interested to see a percentage breakdown of degrees by type in these countries. I would hazard to guess there are not a lot of PhDs in BLM.
Additionally, US students might not like the rules of many of these "free" (in quotes because someone is still paying) universities. Germany, for instance, has no problem telling you to your face that you're not college material and that you should look elsewhere. Part of investing in human capital is knowing when you're dealing with a bad investment. I'm guessing that wouldn't go over well with the snowflake kids we're talking about here. Below is a wiki link with general info about German schooling. Note the requirements to get into University. Hint: they are academic, not skin color or other bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany
-
I don't know the number, but I would be interested to see a percentage breakdown of degrees by type in these countries. I would hazard to guess there are not a lot of PhDs in BLM.
Additionally, US students might not like the rules of many of these "free" (in quotes because someone is still paying) universities. Germany, for instance, has no problem telling you to your face that you're not college material and that you should look elsewhere. Part of investing in human capital is knowing when you're dealing with a bad investment. I'm guessing that wouldn't go over well with the snowflake kids we're talking about here. Below is a wiki link with general info about German schooling. Note the requirements to get into University. Hint: they are academic, not skin color or other bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany
I don't have a problem with that, everyone (with no learning disabilities) gets the same education through 8th grade. Everyone is assessed that year and your assessment score determines which type of HS you go to. Parents can't argue in their little Johnny or Suzy didn't well enough to get into going to college prep school. 2nd year of HS student are assessed again, which is another opportunity to finish in a college prep school, trade route or just a general education, different campuses for each. After graduation, the college prep route are the only ones allowed in a 4 year university after only meeting minimal scores on a assessment exam. Anyone who graduates (regardless of route) is eligible to be accepted to a community college, successful graduation from the community college and passing an assessment would allow for admission into a university. Trade route HS in your junior and senior year will have enough hands on classes where either entering an apprenticeship program or trade school a success. Anyone trying to game the system, parents, students, educators face imprisonment or loss of higher education privilege. Can not educate for the exam, basically given standards and benchmarks in education and any of that material will be on the assessment exam. Geez, starting to sound like a Fascist. :)
To make this work it would take an act of god for a foreign national to get a skilled trade or professional workers visa. Companies can't request foreign visas for skilled trade or professional workers because they can't afford or don't want to pay American's with the desired trade or professional education/experience. Possibly even control how many students can be in each major/trade area depending upon demand by private and public industry.
and school isn't free beyond HS, every one needs to pay something (or be sponsored by a company)
etc.
-
After reading Ben's link, interesting that homeschooling is illegal in Germany, and parents cannot opt their kids out of sex ed classes.
-
They flooded the colleges with people that had no business being in college. They didn't have the background, intellectual firepower or self discipline to succeed.
This in spades.
2020 had about 20 million enrolled college students, according to this link:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183995/us-college-enrollment-and-projections-in-public-and-private-institutions/
According to here, 69% of high school graduates go on to some form of college:
https://educationdata.org/college-enrollment-statistics
Think about the typical High School matriculation body. Then realize that over 2/3 of them are going on to college. It's no longer the best and brightest. It's just the rote and norm. The best and brightest either scramble through all that and emerge on top in spite of the crowded pool, or they find a different path altogether.
This is an enormous investment that isn't panning out at the individual level, and is yet again "too big to fail." So it will be collectivized, somehow.
Of course, college wasn't the sole domain of the best and brightest, it was also the domain of the well connected. And those that are neither connected nor best/bright are realizing they can excel in mob violence and collective intimidation. Which earns them recognition from the next generation of well connected they are meeting while in their college years.
-
Think about the typical High School matriculation body. Then realize that over 2/3 of them are going on to college. It's no longer the best and brightest. It's just the rote and norm. The best and brightest either scramble through all that and emerge on top in spite of the crowded pool, or they find a different path altogether.
Part of this is that you are somehow a "failure" if you don't go to college. Which leads to the women's studies burger flippers.
To use Germany again, they may tell you straight up that you don't belong in University, but they point you to trade school, and more importantly, create a culture of respect for trade school. While the German culture itself still does a lot of royalty related class stuff, like looking at Professors or Doctors as superior ("Herr Doktor"), the electrician is still respected for his skill, not looked at as an uneducated blue color slob redneck.
Mike Rowe should have had a position in the Trump admin.
-
1. Forgive debt
2. Put in government mandated price and wage controls in universities.
>:D
-
As someone mentioned earlier, I'd also support the clearing of school debt through bankruptcy.
Banks and education institutions should eat it, not the taxpayers.
*Neither myself or anyone close to me still has any school loans to pay off, so my opinion on this matter is not influenced by personal gain.
-
As someone mentioned earlier, I'd also support the clearing of school debt through bankruptcy.
Banks and education institutions should eat it, not the taxpayers.
I would prefer that the universities eat the bulk of it rather than the banks. There are far too many "universities" (and I put that in quotation marks because I don't regard most of them as true universities) that are nothing but degree mills. There's one near me that was just a small, independent college that nobody in their right mind would have wanted to attend when I was in high school. Today it's a "university." It has a very high percentage of foreign students, many of whom barely speak English. But they have parents with money, or governments that are willing to pay for an education in the United States. This "university" doesn't pay its faculty especially well, doesn't have a sterling educational reputation, yet it costs as much to attend as many colleges and universities I regard as more legitimate. For the 2020-2021 academic year, this place costs over $61,000 to attend.
-
After reading Ben's link, interesting that homeschooling is illegal in Germany, and parents cannot opt their kids out of sex ed classes.
I've read horror stories of kids being seized by the State for brainwashing . . . including the children of immigrants literally taken off the plane as they and their parents were on the way out of Germany. Usually the kids are placed in foster care. In one case, authorities were VERY upset when a girl fled her foster jailers parents in the middle of the night on her birthday literally hours after she turned 16.
Apparently there's a quiet little underground industry of rescuing these children and helping them and their parents escape the country for some other EU nation.