Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: zahc on May 07, 2013, 06:13:25 PM
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Ok, so all us pro-gunners are quick to point out "the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting!!" but, then, why are we so gun-focused?
What about grenades, RPGs, claymores, 500lb bombs, sidewinder missiles, SAMS, and other "terrible implements". There doesn't even seem to be a strong contingent for legalization of "real" weapons (meaning things that can't even be used for non-warlike purposes).
All the good weapons are basically illegal. We already lost the 2nd amendment fight. Even if the '68 and '86 were repealed, we would still have lost the fight if we only care about firearms. Right?
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Anti-tank small arms seem like a dandy militia weapon, so the 2nd Amendment would seem to fit those pretty well.
Also, what about knives, swords, saps, etc?
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Totally agreed.
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I agree 100%
It should apply to all arms. Good luck with it though.
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Ok, so all us pro-gunners are quick to point out "the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting!!" but, then, why are we so gun-focused?
What about grenades, RPGs, claymores, 500lb bombs, sidewinder missiles, SAMS, and other "terrible implements". There doesn't even seem to be a strong contingent for legalization of "real" weapons (meaning things that can't even be used for non-warlike purposes).
All the good weapons are basically illegal. We already lost the 2nd amendment fight. Even if the '68 and '86 were repealed, we would still have lost the fight if we only care about firearms. Right?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but many/all of those things were freely available up until the 1968 Gun Control Act. Grenades, anti-tank rifles firing explosive rounds, artillery pieces with the good ammo, cannons etc...
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I think the 2nd Amendment covers ALL arms, up to and including N,B,C weapons. But, being the nice guy that I am, I will compromise on those three areas so long as we get the rest.
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I would say diffrent. I would say quite a few of us want "real" weapons and belive the 2nd Amendment covers that.
However, when was the last time you tried the "RKBA is so we can other through a tyranical government if/when we need to" arguement on an anti?
If you coach it so it's illistraighted as poor little you defending yourself from door kicking black boot stomping government agents, you can get a little ground (sometimes), but that still only covers run of the mill firearms.
Anti's can get sporting uses, they can sorta understand self defence, but the concept that the government can turn all bad and abuse it's people and deny civil liberties?
That's just beyond comprehension for the "civilized modern mindset"
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but many/all of those things were freely available up until the 1968 Gun Control Act. Grenades, anti-tank rifles firing explosive rounds, artillery pieces with the good ammo, cannons etc...
1934 National Firearms Act, actually. Though RPGs weren't around at that time.
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1934 National Firearms Act, actually. Though RPGs weren't around at that time.
You sure? Everything I've read suggests that the NFA only applied to machineguns, short-barreled rifles/ shotguns and AOWs and that what is now classified as Destructive Devices were unregulated like every other non-NFA firearms until the 1968 GCA.
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You sure? Everything I've read suggests that the NFA only applied to machineguns, short-barreled rifles/ shotguns and AOWs and that what is now classified as Destructive Devices were unregulated like every other non-NFA firearms until the 1968 GCA.
This is correct, although NFA also included suppressors.
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This is correct, although NFA also included suppressors.
Obviously knew that, just forgot to mention them.
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The 2A covers all of them, but we're focused on guns because we know we can't have the other stuff. Right now just trying to hang on to our guns is enough of a battle.
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the concept that the government can turn all bad and abuse it's people and deny civil liberties?
That's just beyond comprehension for the "civilized modern mindset"
That concept is a core belief of the Left. It's just that they only believe it if the "oppressed" is some fashionable minority group (blacks, sexual deviants, etc).
I think if they were reminded of the success of guerrilla warfare in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Viet Nam, etc, they would start to figure out that armed citizens resisting the govt is eminently doable. Of course, they would fear us all the more for it.
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Anti's can get sporting uses, they can sorta understand self defence, but the concept that the government can turn all bad and abuse it's people and deny civil liberties?
That's just beyond comprehension for the "civilized modern mindset"
Well said.
Wanting to have a means of violent recourse against authority is ludicrous if one accepts the premise that the authority is benevolent and truly has your best interests in mind, and won't ever turn on you like has happened countless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge) times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong) in (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps) the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo) past (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot) 100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kambanda) years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_22). To the left, it's unfathomable that mainland America could ever be a hot shooting war, let alone one between the state and its people.
Ideologically I agree that I think an argument can be made that the second amendment covers a wide variety of military small arms, however it's extremely unlikely we will ever get anywhere close to achieving that. As it stands, even exact duplicates of current service rifles are prohibited.
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Well said.
I guess you and the blue lizzard slept through the Bush administration. And you don't read a lot of leftist lit. They never stop writing books and articles about the govt. oppressing this, that, and the other group.
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The 2A covers all of them, but we're focused on guns because we know we can't have the other stuff. Right now just trying to hang on to our guns is enough of a battle.
Yeah. Once we have solid public and statutory support for "assault weapons" and handguns I'll be happy to start on that stuff. Arguing for grenades and RPGs won't help us with the people who are shaking on "high capacity" magazines right now.
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People seem to be waiting for Government permission to revolt... it doesn't work that way :lol:
If you need certain weapons you just get them. If you need to overthrow an oppressive system you just do it. No one ever got a permission slip for revolution. Anything else is just make believe.
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Anti's can get sporting uses, they can sorta understand self defence, but the concept that the government can turn all bad and abuse it's people and deny civil liberties?
That's just beyond comprehension for the "civilized modern mindset"
My best friend laughs at my explanation of the 2nd Amendment, it being there as a final resort to an oppressive government. When I asked him if he'd seen what had gone on in Boston, he wasn't aware at all of the armed, forced searches of homes. When I told him what had happened, he asked if that was the sort of thing that I was armed for. When I said "yes", he practically had a laughing fit. I guess he's okay with it all, maybe at least until it happens to him.
When I told him about the LA police putting 102 rounds into a blue pickup truck with two women in it, none of which met the suspect description, he wasn't phased by that, either. I guess whatever goes on under Obama's tenure is a-okay.
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Whatever happened to the good old days of municipalities owning artillery?
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People seem to be waiting for Government permission to revolt... it doesn't work that way
Well, go ahead and revolt, then. That's not what this thread is about.
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The simplest answer is that they're expensive.
Were NFA '34 and GCA '68 were wiped tomorrow, and erm... "cultural acceptance" of DD's was comparable to that of Title I firearms, I sincerely doubt that the statistical distribution of weapons by type or caliber would change all that much.
Perhaps people would have more stuff like grenades, and more people would play with rounds over .50 BMG, but overall, even without NFA taxes or paperwork, very few of us have the time, the land/space required, or the financial resources to mess with RPG's or a Carl Gustav.
It would be nice to have the option to do so, go back to when "men of means" would equip or better supply their volunteer units, even up to the time of the Civil War, but in terms of actual distribution of such assets, I don't think it would change all that much. While I admit there's few commercial concerns serving the market, the DD space isn't artificially limited like the MG market has been since '86, and from those few folks I do know who play in it, the NFA taxes and paperwork is really the smallest hassle when your weapon costs you a couple hundred bucks a shot.
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The simplest answer is that they're expensive.
Were NFA '34 and GCA '68 were wiped tomorrow, and erm... "cultural acceptance" of DD's was comparable to that of Title I firearms, I sincerely doubt that the statistical distribution of weapons by type or caliber would change all that much.
Perhaps people would have more stuff like grenades, and more people would play with rounds over .50 BMG, but overall, even without NFA taxes or paperwork, very few of us have the time, the land/space required, or the financial resources to mess with RPG's or a Carl Gustav.
It would be nice to have the option to do so, go back to when "men of means" would equip or better supply their volunteer units, even up to the time of the Civil War, but in terms of actual distribution of such assets, I don't think it would change all that much. While I admit there's few commercial concerns serving the market, the DD space isn't artificially limited like the MG market has been since '86, and from those few folks I do know who play in it, the NFA taxes and paperwork is really the smallest hassle when your weapon costs you a couple hundred bucks a shot.
Meh.
I have a 26.5mm "flare rifle." Bought it for $200 a couple years ago.
Contriving 26.5mm rounds that do other things can't be THAT hard. I'm not interested in experimenting right now and have no supplies or intentions to do so currently, but the inventiveness of the human mind is awe-inspiring.
Grenade launchers, primitive javelin-style anti-APC rockets, IED's... I'd rather have the ability to purchase quality units manufactured by experts, but the alternatives aren't that difficult.
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I'll take it under advisement, Mister Cowboy. Hit it again!
And the quarterback is toast!
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When newks are outlawed, only outlaws will have newks =)
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I guess you and the blue lizzard slept through the Bush administration. And you don't read a lot of leftist lit. They never stop writing books and articles about the govt. oppressing this, that, and the other group.
There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.
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How much would 40mm grenades cost compared to parachute flairs and firework mortar rounds?
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There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.
Hmmmm...must have been "something completly diffferent." [popcorn] [tinfoil]
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The simplest answer is that they're expensive.
Were NFA '34 and GCA '68 were wiped tomorrow, and erm... "cultural acceptance" of DD's was comparable to that of Title I firearms, I sincerely doubt that the statistical distribution of weapons by type or caliber would change all that much.
Perhaps people would have more stuff like grenades, and more people would play with rounds over .50 BMG, but overall, even without NFA taxes or paperwork, very few of us have the time, the land/space required, or the financial resources to mess with RPG's or a Carl Gustav.
It would be nice to have the option to do so, go back to when "men of means" would equip or better supply their volunteer units, even up to the time of the Civil War, but in terms of actual distribution of such assets, I don't think it would change all that much. While I admit there's few commercial concerns serving the market, the DD space isn't artificially limited like the MG market has been since '86, and from those few folks I do know who play in it, the NFA taxes and paperwork is really the smallest hassle when your weapon costs you a couple hundred bucks a shot.
This. Plus the range officer is going to get pissed after you set off your RPG or claymores a couple times. =) Personally, I wouldn't have much desire to store destructive devices in my basement either.
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There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.
Oh, they sometimes discuss real oppression, it just has to be the oppression of a brown person, a chick, or dudes wearing dresses, or some such.
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Meh.
I have a 26.5mm "flare rifle." Bought it for $200 a couple years ago.
Contriving 26.5mm rounds that do other things can't be THAT hard. I'm not interested in experimenting right now and have no supplies or intentions to do so currently, but the inventiveness of the human mind is awe-inspiring.
Grenade launchers, primitive javelin-style anti-APC rockets, IED's... I'd rather have the ability to purchase quality units manufactured by experts, but the alternatives aren't that difficult.
Yes, and several of us got them, some with an eye towards getting the DD stamp for ours so we can play.
However 26.5mm is generally too small to make individually registerable munitions that are actually somewhat combat effective. It took ATK several years and a few million bucks to do it in 25mm for the prior OICW project and the current XM 25 system. And even then there are still detractors who question the actual lethality or effectiveness of the 25mm explosive payload.
You can certainly go over the 1/4 oz NFA limit on explosive filler and run up against the letter of the law, but unless it's RDX or something, it won't do much but make noise. Low order explosives, BP etc. just don't have the kick.
30, 40mm it gets a bit easier since the payloads are substantially larger and go up quickly with the diameter, but to really do it right with high brisance explosives on a semi-production basis is still going to be expensive for you somewhere, if your cost basis isn't that high on the actual rounds, it still is on the logistics and production end so it's do-able without getting yourself killed. :P
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Yeah, I've often wondered about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of these things be legal with proper ATF permits and/or tax stamps?
I think one problem is not so much legality, but the willingness of defense contractors to sell to civilians. Let's say an individual goes to the trouble to build a proper explosives magazine, obtain ATF explosives permits, and can pay whatever taxes are necessary on destructive devices... Are companies that make military munitions going to sell 40mm HEDP rounds or guided rockets to some random dude? Probably not unless it was a large and profitable enough sector of the market to offset the cost of potential liability.
As far as the Second Amendment goes, it absolutely protects these things. There's room for debate about actual WMDs like biological and nuclear weapons, but I think guided explosive munitions and other modern military technologies will become increasingly relevant to civilian defense in this day and age- from both tyrannical governments and criminal organizations. We're looking at a not too distant future of robot quadrupeds and swarms of micro aerial vehicles shaping the battlefield. Conventional firearms are becoming less important to modern combat, and at some point, they're not going to defend against much at all.
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"Why guns?"
Because the National Hand Grenade Association doesn't have the membership to lobby Congress effectively.
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I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff. MkII Frag Grenade. Strela 2. RPG-7. M252 mortar.
Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.
I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user? [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?] If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?
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I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff. MkII Frag Grenade. Strela 2. RPG-7. M252 mortar.
Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.
I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user? [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?] If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?
You would have a bunch of ATF regs to contend with regarding a HG, I expect.
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Yeah, I've often wondered about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of these things be legal with proper ATF permits and/or tax stamps?
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Didn't we fight a war over tax stamps?
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Didn't we fight a war over tax stamps?
And our preferred caffeinated beverage.
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I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff. MkII Frag Grenade. Strela 2. RPG-7. M252 mortar.
Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.
I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user? [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?] If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?
Nitrocellulose based powders aren't considered explosives... and primers look way too cute and harmless to garner support for restrictive legislation (that is, until you store a few thousand in a jar and experience a sympathetic detonation).
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I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.
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Lee,
Your argument is identical to most popular anti-gun arguments, just with different weapons. My point is that many pro-gunners insist guns "can be used responsibly" for non-weapon or personal-defense-weapon purposes, but those purposes are more or less orthogonal to the second ammendment.
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I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.
For some odd reason that just doesn't seem like a scenario that will happen, just like there isn't blood running in the streets every time a state allows concealed carry.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/08/16/the-right-to-own-a-bazooka
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I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.
Common sense tells us that hand grenades and RPG would be the sort of weapons useful to militia. And the second amendment clearly puts the right to own and carry weapons in the context of militia. It couldn't be more obvious that federal regulation of these is unconstitutional.
Besides, why is it anyone else's business if I keep some grenades in my home? They're not hurting you, even if they do blow up and kill me.
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Granted, it's possible it's just ignored, but whenever the Free Syrian Army or whatever insurgency is going on in the Middle East, I don't hear a lot about AD's/ND's of RPG's, mortars etc.
IED's going off prematurely, yes. =D And there's some YouTube of interesting mortar and RPG accidents, but it's during actual intentional use. And seemed to harm the shooter more than anyone else.
But actual purpose built munitions, not so much. They are designed to be battlefield rugged, and not go off unintentionally.
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What is the shelf life of hand grenades? And dynamite?
Just curious, I don't actually have any of those stored in a safe location.
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What is the shelf life of hand grenades? And dynamite?
Just curious, I don't actually have any of those stored in a safe location.
So, where do you store them?
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So, where do you store them?
Undisclosed location.
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Undisclosed location.
But secure ;)
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Over on The Firing Line a few days ago someone asked what we think the limits of the 2nd Amendment are. Someone responded that he should be allowed to own an F-16 and the guy who asked the question dismissed him as a nut.
One has to wonder why people ask questions if they don't want to hear the answers. I refer back to Tench Coxe (quoted in the discussion on TFL) and his comment about "all the terrible implements of the soldier" being the birthright of Americans. Well dammit, if that stuff is my birthright, why can't I buy it?
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And our preferred caffeinated beverage.
???
We fought a war over Diet Coke? When? Where?
Nobody ever tells me nuthin' !
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???
We fought a war over Diet Coke? When? Where?
Nobody ever tells me nuthin' !
No, Red Bull... The whole Communist Minotaur plot thing. Happened back in the 60's. Almost kicked off WWIII, IIRC.
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I refer back to Tench Coxe (quoted in the discussion on TFL) and his comment about "all the terrible implements of the soldier" being the birthright of Americans. Well dammit, if that stuff is my birthright, why can't I buy it?
Since you're a fellow grammar nazi:
Tsk-tsk. "Refer;" not "refer back."
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IIRC, the reason the Brits went walk-about to Lexington and Concord was to look for cannons. Not muskets. ;)
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IIRC, the reason the Brits went walk-about to Lexington and Concord was to look for cannons. Not muskets. ;)
True, dat.
Cannon. Centralized stockpiles of black powder and musketballs. NOT the individual muskets over the mantle of every man's hearth.
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Over on The Firing Line a few days ago someone asked what we think the limits of the 2nd Amendment are. Someone responded that he should be allowed to own an F-16 and the guy who asked the question dismissed him as a nut.
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Why ???
Because no honest man needs to go faster than the speed of sound ...? =|
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I think this goes here:
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Where's that from? 'Cause I like it.
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It's a poster you can buy from Ranger Up (http://www.rangerup.com/). There are some pretty good stories in the RhinoDen (http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/). And The Damn Few (http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/category/video/the-damn-few/) videos are funny as hell (if you are a veteran and get the insider jokes).
http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=3466307a5fe171d7e248ea78c&id=95ec174e1d&e=8d3c4926ca