US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego

[Nick1911]

US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
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Smoke billows from the site of the crash

A US military F-18 fighter jet has crashed into a residential area of San Diego, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has said.

The San Diego Fire Department described the scene of the crash as "a heavily populated area" near Interstate 805.

TV footage showed plumes of white smoke rising from several houses. It is not clear if there are any casualties.

The jet crashed as it prepared to land at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar and the pilot had ejected, the FAA said.

The crash occurred two miles (3.2km) from the base, it added.

Donny James, who was visiting his mother in the area, said the supersonic fighter had been flying at very low altitude.

   
Both houses were totally engulfed in flames... I saw one pilots walking around and he was dazed
Donny James, witness

"It spiralled out of control, just like out of Top Gun, and then it came down," he told CNN.

Mr James said he was unable to get closer to the scene because two houses were on fire.

"Both houses were totally engulfed in flames. I saw a pilot walking around and he was dazed. The police were telling everyone to get out of the way," he added.

A spokesman for the San Diego police department, Monica Munoz, said it appeared so far that the only person injured was the pilot.

Thoughts:

Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?

Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?

[AZRedhawk44]

Was the jet flying a patrol, and was it armed?

Is all ordnance accounted for?

[41magsnub]

Thoughts:

Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?

Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?

I assume the govt will be covering the damages.  Don't F18's have zero/zero ejection seats?  The pilot could eject while on the ground not moving and be ok.

[Manedwolf]

Gregor said the pilot ejected before the crash near Interstate 805. He did not know the pilot's condition or how many people were aboard.

*facepalm* Because it's an FAA official and they for some reason don't know if it's a C,D,E or F? Shouldn't they know that?

Edit: Though this would probably be why they don't know.

A Miramar spokeswoman said personnel from the base were dispatched to the crash site.

"We are still trying to confirm the aircraft even belongs to us," said Marine Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant.

Um...?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html

I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.

Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this well only seven years after 9/11...

[AZRedhawk44]

Could be from another base elsewhere?

Notice the article says it is a "military" jet as opposed to Navy/Air Force/Marines.

I guess it's "possible" it could be from some other AFB in the western US.

[AZRedhawk44]

zOMG!  They put the nearby high school in lockdown!  :-)

 

[Manedwolf]

Could be from another base elsewhere?

Notice the article says it is a "military" jet as opposed to Navy/Air Force/Marines.

I guess it's "possible" it could be from some other AFB in the western US.

The crash happened as the jet was returning to the Miramar field after performing landing training on a Navy aircraft carrier, the Marine Corps said in a news release. The cause of the crash is under investigation, it said.

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

Local news says pilot was flying from a carrier offshore, when he had engine failure.  Not sure if it was one, or both.  Ejected short of Miramar.  At least three civilians dead on the ground.
Correction, two killed, two missing.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081208-1453-bn08plane4.html

[Manedwolf]

Local news says pilot was flying from a carrier offshore, when he had engine failure.  Not sure if it was one, or both.  Ejected short of Miramar.  At least three civilians dead on the ground.
Correction, two killed, two missing.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081208-1453-bn08plane4.html

Aw, man. I bet he feels terrible, even if it's obviously not his fault.

Every time I've seen something go down, it looks like the pilot tries their hardest to get it aimed at water or open fields before punching out. But sometimes, if enough goes wrong, they just don't have an airplane anymore, they just have a big chunk of metal and fuel falling out of the sky. All they can do is leave at that point.

[Gewehr98]

Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?

Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?

Like most current U.S. fighters, F/A-18s have what are called Zero-Zero ejection seats.

As long as they eject inside the performance envelope, they can safely egress at zero altitude and zero airspeed.

Rockets in the seat fire and orient the seat in a safe direction with enough burn time to gain enough altitude for a good canopy opening.

Notice that I said "inside the envelope".  If one punches out and exceeds the capabilities of the seat, then all bets are off.

I just wish my B-52H had Zero-Zero seats.  The two guys downstairs would really appreciate it, too.  :|

Uncle Sam carries no insurance, they just pay cash for liabilities from airplane and vehicle crashes.  That's another reason they train us to steer away from populated areas when we're in deep doo-doo. 

[Ben]

Gewehr, what's an example of exceeding the capabilities of the seat? Or maybe it's easier to answer, what's the performance envelope?

[Regolith]

Uncle Sam carries no insurance

Yup.  Causes lots of confusion with some local cops, too.  My father works for the BLM and has had to go down to the county lockup more than once to break out one of his co-workers who was arrested for driving without insurance after they wrecked a BLM rig. 

[Gewehr98]

The performance envelope for the Zero-Zero seats is considerably bigger than their predecessors. 

Here's a good link explaining the concept, and a test:

http://www.ejectionsite.com/project90.htm

The ejection envelope is dependent on many factors, honestly.  Aircraft type, aircraft altitude, aircraft orientation, airspeed, you name it.  The newer seats have come a long way, and can mitigate some of those factors, but aren't 100% and never will be.

What won't work? A super-duper "smart" ejection seat like the ACES-II isn't going to help you much if you're inverted over the deck by just a few feet, or if you have so much airspeed going that the opening shock of your 'chute breaks your neck/back.

However, it's definitely better than the alternative.  There are some impressive videos of Zero-Zero seats being used to good effect, including that USAF Thunderbird pilot who punched out a fraction of a second before his F-16 pancaked into the deck from a poorly-executed outside loop.

[Lennyjoe]

The reason he was so low is because he was on a 2 mile final approach.  When an engine decides to quit you don't have much time at that altitude.  Normally, with a single engine faillure, an F-18 can recover and gain altitude to avoid crashing.  An F-16 on the other hand won't have much chance for survival.  Question is, did both motors fail or did he run out of fuel?  Won't know for sure until the investigation is over. 

It's unfortunate that there was civilian casualties on the ground.  I'm sure if they pilot had the chance to steer clear of a populated area, he would have. 

The Aces II is a great ejection seat.  Hell of alot better than the Martin Baker back breaker.

[MillCreek]

Although I cannot find it on the Net right now, a few years back, the Seattle papers had a story of a F-15 pilot who survived a supersonic ejection over Alaska.  Apparently he is one of the very few to do so.  He sustained some major orthopedic injuries and his flying career ended, as I recall. 

[Gewehr98]

An F-16 on the other hand won't have much chance for survival.

Quite true, and that's why we referred to them as "Lawn Darts" at airshows when pretty young things in their Daisy Dukes got done looking at our Big Ugly Fat F_____, and mentioned in passing that they wanted to go talk to the dashing young men and their single-engine fighters.

"If that plane over there is an F-15 Eagle, what's that little one?"

"Oh, that's an F-16 Lawn Dart" 

And of course, they sashay over and ask if those are indeed their F-16 Lawn Darts.   

[Jamisjockey]

A Miramar spokeswoman said personnel from the base were dispatched to the crash site.

"We are still trying to confirm the aircraft even belongs to us," said Marine Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant.

Um...?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html

I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.

Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this we*facepalm* Because it's an FAA official and they for some reason don't know if it's a C,D,E or F? Shouldn't they know that?

Edit: Though this would probably be why they don't know.

Um...?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html

I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.

Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this well only seven years after 9/11...

Slow down.

Listen to me.

If you google Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant she comes up as a PAO for Mirimar.  She's a damn reporter.
Now.  First responders and ATC and Squadron all cooridnate the accident. 
News reporter calls the base.  News reporter gets Mirmar's PAO (Public Affairs Office for the civilian/layman).  PAO says "we don't know who's airplane it is" or some other bonehead statement. 
Take this towel.  Wipe the froth from your piehole.  Simmer down.
Trust me.  ATC and the First Responders know exactly who's airplane it was, how many POB there were, and probably other data such as ordinance, FOB, nature of emergency, etc. 
BTDT.

[Ben]

Thanks Gewehr -- also for the informative website!

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

Judging from the fire, I'd say there was still fuel on board.

[Jamisjockey]

Judging from the fire, I'd say there was still fuel on board.

Probably wouldn't take that much fuel to cause that burn pattern/damage pattern.    More than about 1/3 FOB I'd expect to see more damage.

[mfree]

Not a whole heck of a lot of fuel, it looks like. APU feed and vapors, plus hydraulic fluid.

After carrier landing exercises, who wants to bet there was some manner of undetected fatigue failure?

[Jamisjockey]

Not a whole heck of a lot of fuel, it looks like. APU feed and vapors, plus hydraulic fluid.

After carrier landing exercises, who wants to bet there was some manner of undetected fatigue failure?

Its an was an F18........

Imagine a 16 year old with a new DL.  Give him a shiny new Corvette.  Now, tell him he must drive that thing alot.  And race it. 
That is how most airframes in the military are treated.  Throw in a very dedicated but young maintenance crew.

[Fly320s]

No, I'd bet against metal fatigue, the planes are well maintained, and fairly young.  Also, an extensive airframe failure would throw pieces all over.  I haven't heard of any pieces being found outside the crash area.

Dual engine failure from bird strikes or something else is my guess.  Or maybe single engine failure that the pilot couldn't control.

A two mile final puts the plane at about 1,000 feet, fully configured for landing and fairly slow (assuming the military flies like civilians- I don't know).  An engine failure there can be exciting, but totally controllable.

[Jamisjockey]

No, I'd bet against metal fatigue, the planes are well maintained, and fairly young.  Also, an extensive airframe failure would throw pieces all over.  I haven't heard of any pieces being found outside the crash area.

Dual engine failure from bird strikes or something else is my guess.  Or maybe single engine failure that the pilot couldn't control.

A two mile final puts the plane at about 1,000 feet, fully configured for landing and fairly slow (assuming the military flies like civilians- I don't know).  An engine failure there can be exciting, but totally controllable.

Double engine failure (bird strike seems highly plausible) isn't a happy situation for an F18....seems like a very plausible cause.

[Tallpine]

Could have just run out of fuel, too ....