Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: fifth_column on April 22, 2014, 10:58:34 AM
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The FBI can seize your property in order to determine if it was acquired illegally. Notice that the FBI does not need to have any proof of illegality, just a suspicion. Actually, from this case it appears that mere curiosity is all that is necessary for them to raid and steal a person's possessions.
The aim of the investigation is to determine what each artifact is, where it came from and how Miller obtained it, Jones said, to determine whether some of the items might be illegal to possess privately.
the FBI was careful not to say whether they believed the man, Don Miller, had knowingly broken any laws.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/02/fbi-seizing-artifacts-rural-indiana-home/7210675/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/02/fbi-seizing-artifacts-rural-indiana-home/7210675/)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/03/thousands-cultural-artifacts-seized/7244431/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/03/thousands-cultural-artifacts-seized/7244431/)
In what way is this anything like OK? The man has spent his life pursuing his interests, building a collection of items he probably gets a lot of enjoyment from, and .fed comes along and steals them. Because at one point the items belonged to somebody else. I would imagine they once belonged to the person or people that Don Miller bought them from. There is nothing in either of these articles that indicates the man acquired them illegally, or that any kind of illegal activity is occurring whatsoever.
This just blows my mind.
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The more dubious their base, the more likely the act to be an overwhelming display of strength. Not sure if anything is illegal and such an analysis will take decades; Send in the raid team! Might=Right!
For some reason folks have the notion that treaties trump rights and that isn't a view I think mainstream america would get behind. I don't care that the Supreme Court gave the ok to that run around of government taking ever so long ago. If it hits a mainstream or at least large enough public concern (say private gun ownership) rather than some podunk farmer shooting migratory geese; that issue will come to a head rather than trundling along as a taken for granted government prerogative.
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Yep, The 4th Amendment is pretty much a dead letter.
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Has been for decades. I'm be deeply shocked if the FBI didn't arrest said private art as asset seizure. Requiring Mr. Miller to first prove his standing, then prove said products were legally acquired (because objects have no presumption of innocence) and then try to get the court order actually enforced.
I'm fairly sure they don't even bother to pretend that asset seizure is somehow related to War on Drugs or whatnot.
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This is but one event in a series of raids on grave robbers. Theres quite a bit of buzz about it. They are going from collector to collector following the illegally obtained and traded goods. And yea if they trace one bad piece to you they are gonna look at all your stuff. Grave robbing is illegal even if its not white graves
http://www.nps.gov/archeology/tools/Laws/NAGPRA.htm
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Grave robbing is illegal even if its not white graves
There's an Egyptian exhibit in the Field Museum that would tend to disprove that statement. And any number of Native American exhibits. And every Sumerian one.........
I think what you mean is grave robbing that some folks feel white guilt about is illegal.
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The FBI can seize your property in order to determine if it was acquired illegally
Yeah. See Lacey Act. See Gibson Guitars.
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You might wanna look at the process for getting the stuff in those other exhibits. There ate a lot of hoops with other countries. And the law here is pretty straightforward
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Yep, The 4th Amendment is pretty much a dead letter.
The whole constitution is, really. I'm not sure why some people seem to think it's still at all relevant.
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This
https://www.burkemuseum.org/archaeology/laws
And maybe reading the ugly American might help
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Nick or anyone else explain how you think the 4th is being violated
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You might wanna look at the process for getting the stuff in those other exhibits. There ate a lot of hoops with other countries. And the law here is pretty straightforward
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None of which were followed when the majority of those exhibits were "collected". Basically in the middle of last century guilty whites said "Oh we got enough pretties, and we are messing with the Noble Savage, so make all this crap illegal. But anything we already got is totally legits!"
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Er no. In fact there are laws treaties and artifacts returned and such. But it is an interesting justification for ongoing grave robbing and trade in the proceeds
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heres a few examples of the ongoing egregious violations of collectors civil rights
or maybe not you have to look and decide its a mixed bag
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022206661.html
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50918714-78/says-auction-american-indian.html.csp
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/15/blanding-treasure-hunt-suicides-fbi
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There have been many artifacts returned to native american tribes over the years. Some of them were coated in DDT, IIRC, because that's what people did to preserve artifacts back in the day.
The point is the FBI is completely negating this man's rights, and they're not even claiming he's done anything illegal. They don't even have to make any claims of illegality anymore. They just have to say 'We're doing this because we want to do this and there's nothing anyone can do or say to stop us."
Maybe it's been going on for a long time, maybe I haven't lost all my ideals after all, maybe enough of us have enough ideals to make some changes around here . . .
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is it your belief this search is warrant less?
or do you believe he must have committed a crime to get a warrant?
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is it your belief this search is warrant less?
or do you believe he must have committed a crime to get a warrant?
"and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Where is the probable cause?
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is it your contention there is none? or your belief they need to establish it to your satisfaction? on the net for your convenience?
historically they get the warrants based on a sale from another person under investigation.
and its not required that the man whose house they search have committed a crime or be charged now or ever
edited to add they also ran stings with undercover's that rolled up a bunch of folks
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Hey, cassandra and sara's daddy. Here's an idea. How about, if the fourth amendment concerns are so obviously unfounded; if there are good, legal, Constitutional warrants, and/or solid case law that makes this all a tempest in a teapot; how about you just explain all of this to us mouth-breathers, instead of calling people racists first? How does that strike you?
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I thought I did explain. And I guess it could be called racism when people identify with their own demographic and support another member reflexively. I mean no one here woukd be ok with me using a backhoe at the first Baptist graveyard to dig folks up for jewelry and gold teeth. But getting busted for either doing the same to indian graves or trafficking in the spoils is government over kill. Maybe theres another reason?
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I thought I did explain. And I guess it could be called racism when people identify with their own demographic and support another member reflexively. I mean no one here woukd be ok with me using a backhoe at the first Baptist graveyard to dig folks up for jewelry and gold teeth. But getting busted for either doing the same to indian graves or trafficking in the spoils is government over kill. Maybe theres another reason?
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I guess it could be called malicious, or at least impolite, when you ascribe racism to people, without any evidence thereof. When they talk about fourth amendment concerns, and never mention race; and you just jump straight into projecting your own racial issues onto them.
Stay classy.
But, I did go back to look at your first post, and you did explain a bit more about how the raid might have been justified, before (not after) you got to race-baiting, which seems to be your thing, lately. So there's that.
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Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.
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Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.
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Not so much.
Lots of archaeological digs and less scholarly sorts have been digging up the graves of my ancestors for over a hundred years. Yet we north euro types plum forgot to whine about it to everyone willing to listen.
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Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.
Oh, I guess that makes it right for you to jump to conclusions about other members of the Polite Society, and make snide accusations, sans evidence. But please; tell us more about how predominantly white American law enforcement is coming down on a white American for collecting artifacts from foreign countries, and how that validates your contention that no one ever acts against their own cultural bias. I guess they only care about the Russian artifacts?
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Not so much.
Lots of archaeological digs and less scholarly sorts have been digging up the graves of my ancestors for over a hundred years. Yet we north euro types plum forgot to whine about it to everyone willing to listen.
Which graves were those? Can I buy your kins property up to and including bones on the net?
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A lil background on the scale of the grave robbing and the gov involment. Since the feds did it surely it must be an atrocity
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/native16.htm
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That was an amazing leap to an unjustified conclusion there, C&SD, with the 'grave robbing' thing. There was no mention of it in either article, with next to no description of the artifacts he had collected.
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Less a leap than I've been following the series of arrests for a couple years. I doubt the gentleman was robbing graves himself. I can virtually guarantee that with a collection like that size some of it is not kosher. And recovery of stolen or illegal contraband is a legitimate use of a warrant
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Here's more including s statement from the gentleman.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/03/fbi-seizes-thousands-artifacts-at-indiana-property/
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Which graves were those? Can I buy your kins property up to and including bones on the net?
Hear that? That is the sound of me & my sort not whining.
http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/medieval_crusades/viking-anglo-saxon-coins.html
http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/medieval_crusades/viking_anglosaxon_norman.html
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=saxon+artifact
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A11-VIKING-SAXON-Bronze-BEAST-Mount-Fitting-Metal-Detected-Artefact-Dug-Up-/141243348502?pt=UK_Antiques_Other_RL&hash=item20e2c27616
http://www.timelineauctions.com/lot/grave-assemblage-short-sword-and-replica-shield-boss-and-axe/1797/
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ukdigs/
I guess us white folks just are not as pissy and whiny as your sort, CSD.
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Does anyone know if the Feds had a warrant here?
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Does anyone know if the Feds had a warrant here?
Asking that question makes you a racist, apparently.
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There is a news report that says warrant hss not been unsealed or made available yet to the press
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I guess it could be called malicious, or at least impolite, when you ascribe racism to people, without any evidence thereof. When they talk about fourth amendment concerns, and never mention race; and you just jump straight into projecting your own racial issues onto them.
Stay classy.
But, I did go back to look at your first post, and you did explain a bit more about how the raid might have been justified, before (not after) you got to race-baiting, which seems to be your thing, lately. So there's that.
Hear that? That is the sound of me & my sort not whining.
http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/medieval_crusades/viking-anglo-saxon-coins.html
http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/medieval_crusades/viking_anglosaxon_norman.html
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=saxon+artifact
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A11-VIKING-SAXON-Bronze-BEAST-Mount-Fitting-Metal-Detected-Artefact-Dug-Up-/141243348502?pt=UK_Antiques_Other_RL&hash=item20e2c27616
http://www.timelineauctions.com/lot/grave-assemblage-short-sword-and-replica-shield-boss-and-axe/1797/
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ukdigs/
I guess us white folks just are not as pissy and whiny as your sort, CSD.
Were there graves dug up with heavy equipment to get those? Is there a super secret wfo password to get to the bones skulls and other good stuff? Your link just had coins swords and such. What government endorsed and financed the robbing of 10's of thousands of graves?
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Were there graves dug up with heavy equipment to get those? Is there a super secret wfo password to get to the bones skulls and other good stuff? Your link just had coins swords and such. What government endorsed and financed the robbing of 10's of thousands of graves?
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Do some of your own heavy lifting, Kemosabe. I took two minutes to google and found not only artifacts, but artifacts from burial sites for sale. If'n you want an exact match, find it. This far I have seen lots of euro artifacts for sale and no whining about it.
Knowing human nature as I do, I would not be surprised if there is a black market in these items in addition to the out in the open ones I showed you. BFD.
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is it your belief this search is warrant less?
or do you believe he must have committed a crime to get a warrant?
In the story it implies that there is/was no warrant at the time the Feebies came aknockin'.
And yes, there's that whole 4th Amendment thing which KD5NRH posted. Some of us are still provincial enough to believe in that 231 year old document and those that drafted and approved it used very precise language to mean what they say and say what they mean.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.9news.com%2Fimages%2F640%2F360%2F2%2Fassetpool%2Fimages%2F100306012125_03-06-10-doormat.jpg&hash=7fb6b88b9b1f744ed6a2b0f60ceb70a11197a314)
And you can climb down off your high-*expletive deleted*ing-horse. There isn't a civilization yet that hasn't yet had it graves dug up and artifacts put on display in a museum and/or held in private collections.
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I did look for bones and skulls and such didn't find any. And surely didn't find a gov initiated troop implemented raid on 10's of thousands of graves. And the story of the Eskimos is a special bit of Americana
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Could you show where it implues no warrant?
Did you miss the references to the specific laws we have against it? And the fact that folks were commiting trespass to rob the graves? Or is trespass no longer a valid law in the new world?
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Asking that question makes you a racist, apparently.
Actually, I was a li'l worried asking that question might make me a jackbooted police-abuse apologist.
There is a news report that says warrant hss not been unsealed or made available yet to the press
So then, yes, there is a warrant? Cite?
In the story it implies that there is/was no warrant at the time the Feebies came aknockin'.
And yes, there's that whole 4th Amendment thing which KD5NRH posted. Some of us are still provincial enough to believe in that 231 year old document and those that drafted and approved it used very precise language to mean what they say and say what they mean.
Huh? The original article is utterly silent on the subject of warrants and the 4th amendment. I'm wondering if there's any basis to the claims that this seizure is in violation of the constitution. So far I haven't seen any.
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And this article has several perspectives on this event snd one line in particular that does not work with your preferred narrative. Last paragraph. http://art-crime.blogspot.com/2014/04/fbi-reportedly-seizes-private.html?m=1
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Wait, wut? The dude was working with the FBI to return the artifacts?
Is that for real?
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Were there graves dug up with heavy equipment to get those? Is there a super secret wfo password to get to the bones skulls and other good stuff? Your link just had coins swords and such. What government endorsed and financed the robbing of 10's of thousands of graves?
I can almost guarantee much were dug up with heavy equipment. Heavy equipment has been used in excavation of antiquities since its invention. Not sure what government-endorsed grave robbing has to do with this particular case, though.
I did look for bones and skulls and such didn't find any. And surely didn't find a gov initiated troop implemented raid on 10's of thousands of graves. And the story of the Eskimos is a special bit of Americana
Did this guy supposedly have stolen bones or boiled Eskimo corpses in his collection? If not, I really don't see the difference between the collection he has and the artifacts taken from Viking (or Roman, or Greek, or Spanish, or German, etc.) graves. If so, fine, our society doesn't look to kindly at decorating with human remains unless the decorator has a doctorate.
Also, I guarantee that when our society collapses, whatever society rises to power next will dig up our graves too.
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I am incredulous that anyone, much less someone who was a leo, could fantasize that the fbi would seize anything without a warrant.
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On occasion the FBI had been known to step on their cranks. Last I checked they are not 100% in court, and have had cases thrown out for defective warrants, improper questioning, etc. They are made up of human beings that are are far from perfect.
And yes, I can picture some junior G-man going out to talk the gentlemen,then things going all pear shaped, suddenly they have 50+ agents crawling all over with all the toys parked and set-up in the driveway and finally the SAC shows up he asks, "So we got a good warrant for all this?" And then a whole bunch of aholes slam shut.
Again, as citizens our job is to insure that those we entrust with enforcing the laws are operating under the constraints we place on them. So asking that question "Did you adhere to the 4th Amendment protections?" is pretty damn important, and not one to be simply assumed.
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They are made up of human beings there they are far from perfect.
Ain't that the truth. :P
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On occasion the FBI had been known to step on their cranks. Last I checked they are not 100% in court, and have had cases thrown out for defective warrants, improper questioning, etc. They are made up of human beings there are far from perfect.
And yes, I can picture some junior G-man going out to talk the gentlemen,then things going all pear shaped, suddenly they have 50+ agents crawling all over with all the toys parked and set-up in the driveway and finally the SAC finally shows up he asks, "So we got a good warrant for all this?" And then a whole bunch of aholes slam shut.
Again, as citizens our job is to insure that those we entrust with enforcing the laws are operating under the constraints we place on them. So asking that question "Did you adhere to the 4th Amendment protections?" is pretty damn important, and not one to be simply assumed.
you imagine that 100 agents managed to over look a warrant? could you give an example of that type of occurrence? most agents i know go to law school.
we will overlook the pesky reality's of this case for the sake of indulging your theory.
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you imagine that 100 agents managed to over look a warrant? could you give an example of that type of occurrence? most agents i know go to law school.
we will overlook the pesky reality's of this case for the sake of indulging your theory.
Obama taught constitutional law...
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Obama taught constitutional law...
touche
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I thought we'd already established that they had a warrant. Yes?
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I thought we'd already established that they had a warrant. Yes?
Even if we hadn't, it seems to be a reasonable assumption.
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Then we find out the old guy called them. And was cooperating
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So turns out the Feebies didn't (and apparently still don't) have a warrant, though we have been assured by c&sd that there's no way the Federales wouldn't NOT have one. Looks like you get to repeat Obama's ConLaw class. ;/
Given that all we had to go on was the initial newspaper report, that omitted that detail, someone has to ask those pesky constitutional questions. Crappy reporting on the part of the paper. Journalists are supposed to answer the 5 W's. In addition, they are supposed to be the eyes and ears of the people in keeping the .gov in check, by asking some of those pesky questions about things like warrants and Miranda waivers.
And yes, I could very well picture a 100+ agents getting spun up and climbing up his *expletive deleted*hole with a microscope before someone did the "Hey, did we get a warrant and anyone Miranda-ize this guy?" routine.
You can do you own research on Feebie constitutional failures were the perp gets to walk.
Plus the Indy Star did a spread on this guy and his collection in 1998 and it takes the federales SIXTEEN YEARS to go "Hey, send the most junior guy out to look at this stuff and report back."
And most of what I saw was arrowheads and spearpoints. Find lots of those in midwest farm fields. Getting turned up all the time, between plowing and frost heave.
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You have a source for "no warrant"?
And did you read that critical last paragraph of the last link? And see how that might affect the narrative you intuited for us?
Is the use and requirements for use of miranda different under uscmj?
It would appear your understanding is different from mine in re the need for it and the qualifiers that make it needed.
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I did try yo find an instance od the fbi booting a warrant in a search and seizure.
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