Private Art Collectors Beware

[fifth_column]

The FBI can seize your property in order to determine if it was acquired illegally.  Notice that the FBI does not need to have any proof of illegality, just a suspicion.  Actually, from this case it appears that mere curiosity is all that is necessary for them to raid and steal a person's possessions.

The aim of the investigation is to determine what each artifact is, where it came from and how Miller obtained it, Jones said, to determine whether some of the items might be illegal to possess privately.

the FBI was careful not to say whether they believed the man, Don Miller, had knowingly broken any laws.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/02/fbi-seizing-artifacts-rural-indiana-home/7210675/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/03/thousands-cultural-artifacts-seized/7244431/

In what way is this anything like OK?  The man has spent his life pursuing his interests, building a collection of items he probably gets a lot of enjoyment from, and .fed comes along and steals them.  Because at one point the items belonged to somebody else.  I would imagine they once belonged to the person or people that Don Miller bought them from.  There is nothing in either of these articles that indicates the man acquired them illegally, or that any kind of illegal activity is occurring whatsoever. 

This just blows my mind. 

[Ned Hamford]

The more dubious their base, the more likely the act to be an overwhelming display of strength. Not sure if anything is illegal and such an analysis will take decades; Send in the raid team! Might=Right!

For some reason folks have the notion that treaties trump rights and that isn't a view I think mainstream america would get behind.  I don't care that the Supreme Court gave the ok to that run around of government taking ever so long ago.  If it hits a mainstream or at least large enough public concern (say private gun ownership) rather than some podunk farmer shooting migratory geese; that issue will come to a head rather than trundling along as a taken for granted government prerogative.   

[Scout26]

Yep, The 4th Amendment is pretty much a dead letter.

[RevDisk]

Has been for decades. I'm be deeply shocked if the FBI didn't arrest said private art as asset seizure. Requiring Mr. Miller to first prove his standing, then prove said products were legally acquired (because objects have no presumption of innocence) and then try to get the court order actually enforced.

I'm fairly sure they don't even bother to pretend that asset seizure is somehow related to War on Drugs or whatnot.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This is but one event in a series of raids on grave robbers. Theres quite a bit of buzz about it. They are going from collector to collector following the illegally obtained and traded goods. And yea if they trace one bad piece to you they are gonna look at all your stuff.  Grave robbing is illegal even if its not white graves

http://www.nps.gov/archeology/tools/Laws/NAGPRA.htm

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[dogmush]

Grave robbing is illegal even if its not white graves

There's an Egyptian exhibit in the Field Museum that would tend to disprove that statement.  And any number of Native American exhibits.  And every Sumerian one.........

I think what you mean is grave robbing that some folks feel white guilt about is illegal.

[brimic]

The FBI can seize your property in order to determine if it was acquired illegally

Yeah. See Lacey Act. See Gibson Guitars.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You might wanna look at the process for getting the stuff in those other exhibits.  There ate a lot of hoops with other countries.  And the law here is pretty straightforward

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[Nick1911]

Yep, The 4th Amendment is pretty much a dead letter.

The whole constitution is, really.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think it's still at all relevant.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This
https://www.burkemuseum.org/archaeology/laws

And maybe reading the ugly American might help

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Nick or anyone else explain how you think the 4th is being violated

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[dogmush]

You might wanna look at the process for getting the stuff in those other exhibits.  There ate a lot of hoops with other countries.  And the law here is pretty straightforward

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None of which were followed when the majority of those exhibits were "collected".  Basically in the middle of last century guilty whites said "Oh we got enough pretties, and we are messing with the Noble Savage, so make all this crap illegal. But anything we already got is totally legits!"

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Er no. In fact there are laws treaties and artifacts returned and such. But it is an interesting justification for ongoing grave robbing and trade in the proceeds

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

heres a few examples of the ongoing egregious violations of collectors civil rights
or maybe not  you have to look and decide  its a mixed bag
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022206661.html
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50918714-78/says-auction-american-indian.html.csp
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/15/blanding-treasure-hunt-suicides-fbi

[fifth_column]

There have been many artifacts returned to native american tribes over the years.  Some of them were coated in DDT, IIRC, because that's what people did to preserve artifacts back in the day.

The point is the FBI is completely negating this man's rights, and they're not even claiming he's done anything illegal.  They don't even have to make any claims of illegality anymore.  They just have to say 'We're doing this because we want to do this and there's nothing anyone can do or say to stop us."

Maybe it's been going on for a long time, maybe I haven't lost all my ideals after all, maybe enough of us have enough ideals to make some changes around here . . .

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

is it your belief this search is warrant less?
or do you believe he must have committed a crime to get a warrant?

[KD5NRH]

is it your belief this search is warrant less?
or do you believe he must have committed a crime to get a warrant?

"and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Where is the probable cause?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

is it your contention there is none?  or your belief they need to establish it to your satisfaction? on the net for your convenience?

historically they get the warrants based on a sale from another person under investigation.
and its not required that the man whose house they search have committed a crime or be charged  now or ever

edited to add   they also ran stings with undercover's that rolled up a bunch of folks

[Perd Hapley]

Hey, cassandra and sara's daddy. Here's an idea. How about, if the fourth amendment concerns are so obviously unfounded; if there are good, legal, Constitutional warrants, and/or solid case law that makes this all a tempest in a teapot; how about you just explain all of this to us mouth-breathers, instead of calling people racists first? How does that strike you?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I thought I did explain.  And I guess it could be called racism when people identify with their own demographic and support another member reflexively. I mean no one here woukd be ok with me using a backhoe at the first Baptist graveyard to dig folks up for jewelry and gold teeth. But getting busted for either doing the same to indian graves or trafficking in the spoils is government over kill. Maybe theres another reason?

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[Perd Hapley]

I thought I did explain.  And I guess it could be called racism when people identify with their own demographic and support another member reflexively. I mean no one here woukd be ok with me using a backhoe at the first Baptist graveyard to dig folks up for jewelry and gold teeth. But getting busted for either doing the same to indian graves or trafficking in the spoils is government over kill. Maybe theres another reason?

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I guess it could be called malicious, or at least impolite, when you ascribe racism to people, without any evidence thereof. When they talk about fourth amendment concerns, and never mention race; and you just jump straight into projecting your own racial issues onto them.

Stay classy.

But, I did go back to look at your first post, and you did explain a bit more about how the raid might have been justified, before (not after) you got to race-baiting, which seems to be your thing, lately. So there's that.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.

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[roo_ster]

Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.

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Not so much.

Lots of archaeological digs and less scholarly sorts have been digging up the graves of my ancestors for over a hundred years.  Yet we north euro types plum forgot to whine about it to everyone willing to listen.

[Perd Hapley]

Is it your contention that folks don't respond very differently when its one of "their people" involved? Be it a racial/social/professional demographic. That would be a most unique position.

Oh, I guess that makes it right for you to jump to conclusions about other members of the Polite Society, and make snide accusations, sans evidence. But please; tell us more about how predominantly white American law enforcement is coming down on a white American for collecting artifacts from foreign countries, and how that validates your contention that no one ever acts against their own cultural bias. I guess they only care about the Russian artifacts?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Not so much.

Lots of archaeological digs and less scholarly sorts have been digging up the graves of my ancestors for over a hundred years.  Yet we north euro types plum forgot to whine about it to everyone willing to listen.

Which graves were those? Can I buy your kins property up to and including bones on the net?

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