Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on November 15, 2018, 08:58:11 AM
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More from Florida.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-voters-have-until-saturday-to-fix-signature-issue-federal-judge-says
This is kinda a tangent from the elections.
I have always been a proponent of voter ID, but it has to be done right. This "signature discrepancy" thing actually got me wondering if any of my mail-in ballots have ever been tossed without me knowing about it. My signature has always varied some, and from what I heard from Andrew Napalitano the other day, if you were to say be registered with your middle initial, but sign your ballot without it, your ballot can be tossed. I got curious and did some gazoogling, and found that it has only recently been ruled that in CA it is unconstitutional to toss a mail-in ballot based on signature without contacting the voter to verify.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article203746944.html
So while again, I am pro voter ID, it has to be something better than someone who doesn't know me, or who may be a raving lunatic lefty (or righty for a lefty), potentially invalidating my vote because my signature isn't identical. I mean, does anyone write their signature absolutely identically every time?
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More from Florida.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-voters-have-until-saturday-to-fix-signature-issue-federal-judge-says
This is kinda a tangent from the elections.
I have always been a proponent of voter ID, but it has to be done right. This "signature discrepancy" thing actually got me wondering if any of my mail-in ballots have ever been tossed without me knowing about it. My signature has always varied some, and from what I heard from Andrew Napalitano the other day, if you were to say be registered with your middle initial, but sign your ballot without it, your ballot can be tossed. I got curious and did some gazoogling, and found that it has only recently been ruled that in CA it is unconstitutional to toss a mail-in ballot based on signature without contacting the voter to verify.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article203746944.html
So while again, I am pro voter ID, it has to be something better than someone who doesn't know me, or who may be a raving lunatic lefty (or righty for a lefty), potentially invalidating my vote because my signature isn't identical. I mean, does anyone write their signature absolutely identically every time?
I sign my name maybe 50 times a day at work, and while there are minor variances due to pen used, what the surface was, etc., you can tell if it's me.
That said, as I read and here more and more about judges extending voting times, ordering votes to be counted that are deemed questionable, etc., it makes me wonder how long it's going to be before we have something like American Idol style voting...call the 1-800 number to record your votes, identification is irrelevant. Call as many times as you like ($1 per call fee).
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Huh. That middle initial thing is distressing. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't on things, and I use a mail-in ballot.
Worth checking on, but I have enough challenges right now it'll have to wait until next October before I get around to it.
Drat.
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The hordes of media programmed NPC’s will swamp all future elections.
There aren’t enough people on the right to hold the line.
Half the folks on the right are actually leftists who just don’t want to move left so fast.
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When I changed the signature on my mail-in ballot from cursive to block printing (I now print my signature), the County Auditor office called to check to make sure it was still me who signed the ballot. I had to complete and return a new signature card for them.
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At my local precinct, you have to sign using your finger on one of those electronic pads, which the poll worker compares to your previous signature. Of course, my e-signature doesn't look anything like it does when signed with a regular writing instrument.
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At my local precinct, you have to sign using your finger on one of those electronic pads, which the poll worker compares to your previous signature. Of course, my e-signature doesn't look anything like it does when signed with a regular writing instrument.
Yeah, my e-sig looks like it was done by a retarded right-handed monkey writing left-handed.
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I have always thought that your legal signature had to be "the same" each time. Not that you can absolutely replicate the strokes, but if you habitually use a middle initial, then if you sign without the middle initial it's not your legal signature.
For example, my father's first name was the same as mine, but he didn't have a middle name. I do -- so from an age so young that I can't remember, I have always used the middle initial to distinguish me from my father. By the time he died, it was second nature so I continue to use the middle initial version as my legal name, and my signature. Exceptions are when cashing or depositing checks that don't include the middle initial, or that include the middle name rather than the initial. Checks get endorsed as the payee appears on the face, or the bank teller comes unglued.
On my mother's side, four consecutive generations had the same name, so their signatures included "Sr.", "Jr.", "III", or "IV." My uncle hated the fact that he was "IV," and I noticed that very soon after the death of my grandfather he stopped using the Roman numeral. I have always regarded that as a sign of disrespect.
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Yeah, my e-sig looks like it was done by a retarded right-handed monkey writing left-handed.
Mine would look a little better if they would put a little box around the area where you need to sign so you don't figure out half way through that half your signature didn't get picked up because it wasn't in the hidden box.
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X
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X
THAT IS CLEARLY A FORGERY!!!!!!!! [tinfoil]
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On my mother's side, four consecutive generations had the same name, so their signatures included "Sr.", "Jr.", "III", or "IV." My uncle hated the fact that he was "IV," and I noticed that very soon after the death of my grandfather he stopped using the Roman numeral. I have always regarded that as a sign of disrespect.
I believe it's proper to drop the suffix II, III, Jr, etc. (II is not the same as Jr.) when all the ones before you have passed on, but of course it's not mandatory. I don't think it's disrespectful either way.
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I believe it's proper to drop the suffix II, III, Jr, etc. (II is not the same as Jr.) when all the ones before you have passed on, but of course it's not mandatory. I don't think it's disrespectful either way.
My grandfather was very old school. His father (the "Junior"), died in 1948, IIRC. My grandfather continued to use the III after his name until the day he died, in 1972. I know my uncle's reason for dropping the IV, and I definitely consider it a sign of disrespect.
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I'm named after my father, funny thing is, neither of us went by "Alfred." Dad was always "Al" and I have always been "Speedy" since my birth, 9mo and 2 days after my parents were married. No disrespect to my dad, I have just never been known by "Alfred" my entire life!
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I'm named after my father, funny thing is, neither of us went by "Alfred." Dad was always "Al" and I have always been "Speedy" since my birth, 9mo and 2 days after my parents were married. No disrespect to my dad, I have just never been known by "Alfred" my entire life!
But what's your legal signature? What name do you sign if you buy a house, car, or motorcycle? What name goes on the title?
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???
I reckon your legal signature is whatever you acknowledge to be your signature. Nowadays, I guess that would be in front of a Notary taking the Acknowledgement. I suppose a witness to it would do, as in "X (John Smith, his mark)."
I figured an attorney would have chimed in on that by now. Which I ain't. But a lot of this stuff is related to English Common Law. Like "Your name is whatever you hold yourself out to be. A court order only compels others to recognize it."
???
Terry
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LEGAL is "Alfred" I get checks to "Speedy" and my bank is fine with that and I do NOT answer to "Alfred," NEVER have, not in school, not in the military. I answer to "Speedy", "Mercer", "Dr Speed", or "Hey, ahole" (or such).
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Yeah the only time I ever heard "Terrance," it was from my mother.
Terry
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Back to the topic. (Is that allowed?)
Broward and Palm Beach counties in Florida missed the deadlines for submitting the recounts, so the state rejected the recounts and let the original counts stand.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-county-submits-recount-2-165424808.html
It's interesting to note (for those kvetching about "Let every vote count) that, if the recounts had been validated, BOTH candidates in each race would actually have lost votes, but the outcome would not have changed.
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LEGAL is "Alfred" I get checks to "Speedy" and my bank is fine with that and I do NOT answer to "Alfred," NEVER have, not in school, not in the military. I answer to "Speedy", "Mercer", "Dr Speed", or "Hey, *expletive deleted*hole" (or such).
Yes, but what do you sign when you get a loan, rent an apartment, or sign something that needs notarized ?? That is your legal signature. (and from working with a Notary Public here in the tax office, It better be the name on your Driver's License and your signature better be pretty damn close to what's on your license.
Yes, your bank may not care who the checks you deposit are made out to, but if you want to borrow money from them, I can pretty much bet that "Speedy" won't fly.
When I work elections, we tell people to sign with their "I'm signing a government document." signature. Not the one they use to sign the "Please excuse junior form school yesterday", or the I'm signing 50 documents at work signature. I seriously sign with an "X" at work on the electronic capture pad. No one else does, so if there's ever any question, everyone knows it was me. (All the stuff signed on the pad stays with us. It never goes to the IRS. Those forms are for J-H use only.)
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As I noted, my LEGAL name is "Alfred" and HAS to be used on legal documents. That doesn't mean I have to use it for anything else. In fact, the name on my Social Security Card from the very early 60's is signed "Speedy" and I still have and use that original card and have never replaced it.
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Yet more from Florida: https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Absent-Ballots-Broward-County-Misplaced-Over-2000-Votes-500756262.html
Broward County has "misplaced" 2,000+ votes. How convenient!
Why does this Snipes person still have a job?
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I thought signatures can be anything you decide to put down. Don't see how they can get by with saying that it "doesn't match" or that you didn't use your middle initial or whatever.
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I thought signatures can be anything you decide to put down. Don't see how they can get by with saying that it "doesn't match" or that you didn't use your middle initial or whatever.
Yes, your signature can be anything you wish. However, when you register to vote (at least in Illinois), your signature is scanned into the voter database. Then you come in to vote, you have to sign the "Application to Vote" and we compare that to what you had signed previously when you had registered. Now, signatures change somewhat over time, so we look to make sure it kinda, sorta, if you look at it from that angle, appears close to what you signed all those years ago. (And a Democrat and Republican election judge have to agree, if one doesn't then we have the old Challenge to Vote and all the FUN that entails) It would be sooooooo much simpler, if we had Voter ID. But that would eliminate the Margin of Fraud for the Democrats here in Illinois.
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Brenda Snipes resigning.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-brenda-snipes-resigns-20181118-story,amp.html
I figured she would come out swinging with every lib lawyer and race-baiting tactic she (or her Dem supporters) could afford. A simple resignation? I am genuinely gobsmacked.
Brad
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Yes, your signature can be anything you wish. However, when you register to vote (at least in Illinois), your signature is scanned into the voter database. Then you come in to vote, you have to sign the "Application to Vote" and we compare that to what you had signed previously when you had registered. Now, signatures change somewhat over time, so we look to make sure it kinda, sorta, if you look at it from that angle, appears close to what you signed all those years ago. (And a Democrat and Republican election judge have to agree, if one doesn't then we have the old Challenge to Vote and all the FUN that entails) It would be sooooooo much simpler, if we had Voter ID. But that would eliminate the Margin of Fraud for the Democrats here in Illinois.
It just boggles my mind that some places DON'T require voter ID. I've been registered to vote since I was 18 (or 21, don't remember), and I have always had to show my driver's license to vote. When I walk in, there's a D and an R registrar sitting at a long-ish table, each with a list of all registered voters in their section of the voting list. In my town, at least, they break it down by streets, so streets beginning with A thru L (or something like that) go left, and streets beginning with M thru Z go right. I get to the table, tell them my street, hand them my license, they read off the street number and my name, then each of them draws a line through my name to show that I have voted. They hand my license back, along with a chit that I take to the next station, where I exchange the chit for a ballot, which I then carry to a booth to be filled out. Once I have filled out the ballot, I head to the exit, feeding my ballot into the gaping maw of the machine on my way out.
I wouldn't want it any other way.
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I thought signatures can be anything you decide to put down. Don't see how they can get by with saying that it "doesn't match" or that you didn't use your middle initial or whatever.
Well, that's why I thought a lawyer or at least a Notary would chime in. This whole discussion about Florida's signature flap revolves around signature variability and our individual experiences with it, which were on the thread topic.
It would appear that any signature is valid, however scrawled, as yours if you identify yourself as the person who signed it and that you in fact acknowledge it to be yours. That's what Notaries do: Take a permanent acknowledgement that "this" is my signature on "this" particular document.
And as far as I know, it is not necessary that you sign in front of the Notary to acknowledge it... at least not when I had my commission. Your State and century may vary on this.
X (Terry, his mark)
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Well, that's why I thought a lawyer or at least a Notary would chime in. This whole discussion about Florida's signature flap revolves around signature variability and our individual experiences with it, which were on the thread topic.
It would appear that any signature is valid, however scrawled, as yours if you identify yourself as the person who signed it and that you in fact acknowledge it to be yours. That's what Notaries do: Take a permanent acknowledgement that "this" is my signature on "this" particular document.
And as far as I know, it is not necessary that you sign in front of the Notary to acknowledge it... at least not when I had my commission. Your State and century may vary on this.
I'm not a notary public, but I am a Justice of the Peace in my state. JPs are allowed in this state to attest signatures, just like notaries. At least in this state, the document must be signed in the presence of the notary (or JP). You can't sign a document at home and then bring it to a notary to have him/her bless the signature.
The form of attestation a notary executes in this state reads as follows:
On this the_____day of____________, 20____, before me, ______________________, the undersigned
officer, personally appeared _______________________________, known to me (or satisfactorily
proven) to be the person(s) whose name(s) (is or are) subscribed to the within instrument and
acknowledged that (he, she or they) executed the same for the purposes therein contained.
In witness whereof I hereunto set my hand.
______________________
Signature of Notary Public
Date Commission Expires:_____________
_____________________
Printed Name of Notary
I understand that this can be read to mean that a notary may attest a previously-executed signature as long as the person who brings the document in says it's their signature and they can show proof that they are the same person who claims to have signed the document. I've dealt with a lot of notaries over the years, and I have not encountered a single one who would attest a previously applied signature.
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^"I understand that this can be read to mean that a notary may attest a previously-executed signature as long as the person who brings the document in says it's their signature and they can show proof that they are the same person who claims to have signed the document."
OK. I assume the authors of that language were highly accomplished attorneys who knew the statutory limitations and requirements in exquisite detail, yet did not include a prohibition against notarizing a previous signature.
"I've dealt with a lot of notaries over the years, and I have not encountered a single one who would attest a previously applied signature."
Is this a matter of mere "good practice" or "tradition," or an actual statutory provision?
And this all goes back to the parameters of validation of a voter ID. Where does validation start, and where does it end?
As I mentioned before, twenty or thirty years ago I was dead set against a national ID. Circumstances have dictated that I change that position.
When my eldest son was born, I was highly annoyed that they took footprints and assigned a "soash" (Social Security Number, SSN) to him. I changed my mind on that, too.
Terry
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OK. I assume the authors of that language were highly accomplished attorneys who knew the statutory limitations and requirements in exquisite detail, yet did not include a prohibition against notarizing a previous signature.
"I've dealt with a lot of notaries over the years, and I have not encountered a single one who would attest a previously applied signature."
Is this a matter of mere "good practice" or "tradition," or an actual statutory provision?
The way I read the statute, it is NOT a statutory provision. That said, we know that a statute says what the courts say it says (or means), and I have no way of looking up common law precedent on the matter. As a Justice of the Peace, the appointing authority is the Town Clerk in the town in which I live, so I contacted her to ask for guidance. She helpfully referred me to the state's manual of practice for notaries, which I had already read and which mirrors the statute in not expressly saying that a person must sign a document in front of the notary. So, unless and until I hear back from her again, I am now more confused than I was 24 hours ago.
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Update: I just received a new e-mail from the Town Clerk. She referred the question to the state attorney general's office. The official word is:
I spoke to the Secretary of the States office today and she stated emphatically that the wording means that the person has to sign in front of the notary and if they have already signed it that they just sign again.
She (the Town Clerk) agreed with me that the language of the statute does NOT clearly say anything of the kind, but we have to proceed based on what the AG tells us, so I will continue to follow what I have always understood the requirement to be: the person has to sign in front of me.
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From the National Notary Association:
https://www.nationalnotary.org/notary-bulletin/blog/2015/04/5-steps-proper-notarization
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By Michael Lewis on April 09, 2015 in Best Practices: Almost every state requires the signer to personally appear before you during the notarization.
I guess your century and State may vary.
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2015 is all of four years ago. I pretty confident that not much changes from year to year in the Notary industry.
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It all depends on your relationship with the notary.
=D
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I mean, does anyone write their signature absolutely identically every time?
That's not possible. But my legal signature has always included my middle initial. The only times I sign otherwise is if I'm endorsing a check that's made out to my name without the middle initial, or that uses the full middle name rather than the middle initial. I think today banks are more flexible on such things but, back when I first opened a checking account, checks had to be signed exactly as they were made out. If a payer misspelled my name, I signed with the wrong spelling and then signed again directly under that.
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2015 is all of four years ago. I pretty confident that not much changes from year to year in the Notary industry.
Amy, I wasn't referring to the 2015 as being a century ago.
Hawkmoon:
She (the Town Clerk) agreed with me that the language of the statute does NOT clearly say anything of the kind, but we have to proceed based on what the AG tells us, so I will continue to follow what I have always understood the requirement to be: the person has to sign in front of me.
My understanding is that the AG's opinion on the "intent of the legislature," at least in Colorado, has the quasi force of law* until the matter is finally resolved in the actual Courts, so I would feel comforable in following that advice.
However, I don't really have an ax to grind in this particular matter, I just want to make sure of the legal grounds of which we speak in individual political subdivisions.
As an example, forever, that is, since the last century, I thought "silencers" and machineguns were simply illegal under Federal law.
Not so:
(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1016/06/nfa-tax-stamp-200-dollar-machine-guns_1_9acc0539bc307b97155d3da80d67832b.jpg)
Note date of 2015.
However, no matter what State you live in (even Colorado), habitual use of Marihuana is illegal under Federal law.
Yet:
(https://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/MarijuanaTaxStamps_1510.jpg)
Another century.
Terry
* Basically meaning that's what they'll prosecute or not prosecute on.