EPA to ban 2 strokes??

[Guest]

Heard that from a guy at work, that supposedly, they eviro-idijits are after my weedwacker.  can anybody verify this??



ADDED-  yes , i did google this and came up with nil..

[Chuck Dye]

Perhaps not EPA, but California Air Resources Board (CARB) and others are zeroing in on small engines.  Your existing gadget is likely safe for a while, it is new sales that will be restricted, but such draconian agencies as CARB supposedly have considered restricting maintenance and repair availability to hurry the turnover.  Two stroke engines have virtually vanished from highway applications and are rapidly disappearing from outboard boat engines as exhaust standards tighten.  Power tools and lawn care are sure to follow.

My first effort at a search used "small engine pollution standards" and turned up a lot of sites.

[Leatherneck]

This has been the goal of the greenies for a decade or more. Badly tuned 2-cycle angines really do throw a lot of junk into the air, and as long as it's phased in slowly, I think the impact will be minimal.

A newspaper report this morning cited the "fact" that 10% of air pollution in the USA comes from small engines. I have a real problem choking that down. Seems a bit like "26 times more likely to kill a loved one."

TC

[brimic]

I don't necessarily see the 'voluntary' phasing out of outboard 2-cycle motors as a bad thing, they leave a lot of oil on the water and aren't as reliable as 4 stroke engines and require much more maintenance.  Smaller applications are a problem, I wouldn't want to have to lug around a 4 stroke chainsaw or weedeater. A broad control over 2-stroke engines seems to be more about control than good policy. Once the EPA and envirowhackos can cross 2-stroke engines off their list, they will be after out barbeque grills next- mark my words on this one.

[Firethorn]

I don't necessarily see the 'voluntary' phasing out of outboard 2-cycle motors as a bad thing, they leave a lot of oil on the water and aren't as reliable as 4 stroke engines and require much more maintenance.

It might be propaganda, but there's at least one company producing modern, computer controlled 2-strokes that they claim are more reliable, powerful, efficient, and less polluting than the equivalent marine 4 strokes.

[Chuck Dye]

they will be after out barbeque grills next- mark my words on this one.

Uh, don't look now but that has already begun.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/advs/advs316.pdf

[Otherguy Overby]

You'll have to pry my 2-stroke chainsaw from my cold dead hands!

[brimic]

Regulation of charcoal lighter fluid? Has California gone insane? No need to answer that question. I'm never moving there, I would probably have to check my Zippo at the border.

Maybe I could market an 'all natural' thermite charcoal lighting system to california?

[Guest]

Has California gone insane? No need to answer that question

duh :neener:


Those people are aboso-fukin-lutely nuts.  all there is to it.  I duno what they would do if they actually followed their own laws.  i just noticed today that S&S carbs are verboten in Cali, but that doesn't stop em' from selling more carbs in cali than anywhere else.

[Otherguy Overby]

Those people are aboso-fukin-lutely nuts.  all there is to it.  I duno what they would do if they actually followed their own laws.  i just noticed today that S&S carbs are verboten in Cali, but that doesn't stop em' from selling more carbs in cali than anywhere else.

Uh, no kidding.  I think they'd rather have every Harley running old Linkerts or, God help us, Tillotson pumper crabs*.

(don't tell them about squeeze)


* Internet for carbs...  Usage:  I had to tune my crabs before leaving for The Rock Store.  

2nd note.  I had to do a web search to find the proper spelling of Tillotson (which had departed my memory)...  Seemed the majority was *son.

[Guest]

I dont think they have already managed to ban 2stroke motorcycles from the street, small loss I suppose, but its getting hard to find 2 strokers for offroad use as well, probably a combination of US and Euro restrictions. Carbs are going away too :-(

[grampster]

Evinrude outboards, now owned by Bombardier, have 2-stroke technology that is alleged to be as clean, fuel efficient and quiet as 4-stroke engines.  I doubt that they would have made that investment if the goobermint was going to ban 2-strokes.

[mfree]

The 2-strokes they're after are, I bet, the crankcase pumpers... they've universally got to (or are going to) mix oil with the fuel, that's where all the pollution comes from. There's been new technology out for a while now, somewhat like 2-stroke diesels, that leave a sealed crankcase. It generally relies on either the orbital principle (Ford's Fiesta motor) or direct injection. Chrysler had quite a 2-stroke program going before Daimler-Benz bought in, they even had a prototype engine running. http://www.allpar.com/neon/stroke.html

[charby]

I love my 2 cycle outboard. Its 31 years old and never caused me a fit except for bad gas and it takes just a little longer to start then. Plus I don't want to make the purchase of a newer 4 stroke outboard.

I love my 2 cycle lawn mower, lighter weight and more horsepower. I bought my Lawn-boy the last year ('03) they were selling 2 cycle mowers, just because the 4 cycle option at the time was Briggs and Crappen. I do see that they have Honda engines now.

I owned a 125 cc 4 stroke dirt bike once, it was a gutless wonder, my 100cc 2 stroke ran circles around it. I haven't rode any of the newer 4 stroke dirt bikes yet.

I have noticed that you can't buy 2 cycle oil everywhere like you used to, least not here in central Iowa.

Charby

[Art Eatman]

Existing 2-strokes are grandfathered.  The deal is to put an end to two-cycle new stuff--boats, bikes, whatever.  Note that F1 motorcycles are going (have gone?) 4-stroke.

Face it:  Lube oil ain't a good fuel.  No matter what you do, putting oil into the combustible mix is always gonna be dirtier than straight gasoline or diesel or alky.  JonRude folks might well be cleanER than in the past, but they're nowhere nearly as clean as a no-oil fuel.  Physically impossible at rational cylinder head temperatures of around 2,000 degrees F.

Art

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

*sigh*
I love the smell of two-stroke-smoke.

[Gewehr98]

It's gonna happen.  

As a stocking dealer of Shindaiwa and Red Max power equipment, we're all too aware of the EPA desire to reduce and/or eliminate 2-stroke engines in their current configuration.


Shindaiwa has already come out with a hybrid 2-stroke/4-stroke powerplant to reduce exhaust emissions, called "C4 Technology".  To me, it looks like one just feeds a 4-stroke engine 2-stroke (mixed) fuel, with no 4-stroke oil sump in the crankcase or slinger/oil pump.  

Here's the EPA game plan, per Shindaiwa's web site:

The EPA has finalized the timetable for its phased-in emission regulations for hand-held outdoor power equipment. The current Phase 1 levels for allowable emissions is 184 g/bhp-hr, as initiated by the EPA in 1997(1), and is calculated from measuring two primary benchmark pollutants, hydrocarbons (HC) and Nitrates of Oxide (NOx). It is no surprise that Shindaiwa has met these standards through leaner carburetor settings, and changes to cylinder porting.

Starting January 1, 2002, the Phase 2 emission regulations will require all manufactures to lower the HC and NOx levels to 146 g/bhp-hr (see figure I). Shindaiwa will confidently meet this new regulation with a mix of current EPA Phase 1 and Phase 2 technologies, which use low emission catalyst mufflers(2). However, starting in 2005, the allowable emission levels for HC and NOx are cut to a scant 37 g/bhp-hr. That is almost 80% lower compared to today's 2001 levels; and not attainable by today's 2-cycle technology.


EPA Phase 2 Regulations
Engine Class Pollutant 2002 2003 2004 2005 & Later
     
Class IV (20-50cc) HC = NOx (g/bhp-hr) 148 110 73 37
Figure I.
Source: EPA, October 2001

Take a minute now and read the chart on emerging emission levels (see figure II). Okay, from the chart below which of the engine technologies will meet and beat the tough 2005 EPA emissions standards of 37 g/bhp-hr? That is correct, the 4-cycle engine at just 11 to 23 g/bhp-hr. The 4-stroke engine is the only viable power source currently that will attain the EPA 2005 levels for compliance. Our C4 Technology® measures an impressive 18 g/bhp-hr. However, Shindaiwa engineers will continue to work diligently to further lower emissions, while simultaneously powering-up performance.



In basic terms, this is why C4 Technology® is so important to our business plan now and in the future. Enter C4 Technology® and Shindaiwa's move to the major leagues.


Emerging Emission Levels
HC+NOx (g/bhp-hr) ranges


2-Stroke OC (oxidation catalyst) 44-53
 
Compression wave  46
 
TWC (three way catalyst) 42-44
 
High efficiency recirculator 41
 
Stratified charge 39-50
Micro 4-stroke 11-23
Figure II.Source:
EPA, October 2001

(1) Based on the 20-50cc Class IV engine family.
(2) With EPA Phase 2 Corporate Averaging, Shindaiwa plans to have a full commercial product line with a mix of EPA Phase 1 and Phase 2 technologies, and complemented with our new C4 Technology® program.

More on the EPA plan, and what at least Shindaiwa's doing to comply:

http://www.shindaiwa.com/c4tech/index.html

This made me laugh:

Uh, no kidding.  I think they'd rather have every Harley running old Linkerts or, God help us, Tillotson pumper crabs*.

If the EPA knew how much raw fuel the accelerator pump in the Keihin carb dumped into the intake manifold of my Shovelhead each time I twisted the throttle, they'd faint.  I said carb, because as a Floridian, I normally eat crab.

[Gewehr98]

Regarding 2-stroke restrictions, I've seen that happening well before this year.  One of the state parks I worked at banned outboard engines more than 20 years ago, because the exhaust through the propeller hub was raising hell with the lakes ecology.  Now it's just electric motors, oars, and sails.  


I used to have a LawnBoy mower, but it was sad.  It had this huge cone-shaped flywheel on the crankshaft end, and 4 small triangular blades mounted on the edge of that flywheel that did all the grass cutting.  The motor was so weak it needed that huge flywheel to make enough power to cut grass.  

Having grown up working in my dad's shop on Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh, LawnBoy, Wisconsin Robin, Kohler, Continental and Onan small engines, I'd gladly take a Briggs over a Tecumseh or LawnBoy.  I'd prefer the older cast iron sleeved Briggs models, but that's a thing of the past, especially since Briggs (aka MTD) is converting their entire lineup to overhead valve, just like Kohler, Kawasaki, and Honda already have.  The preferred engine for kid's 1/8 mile junior dragsters is still the old horizontal-shaft 5 hp Briggs, albeit run on alcohol.  I've got a nephew and niece who may be talking their uncle into doing this eventually:

[zahc]

I don't necessarily see the 'voluntary' phasing out of outboard 2-cycle motors as a bad thing, they leave a lot of oil on the water and aren't as reliable as 4 stroke engines and require much more maintenance.

No. They are messy. They are at least as reliable as 4-strokes, I would say more so. They require less maintenance, because you have to change 4-stroke oil. There is basically no maintenance to one of the old 2-stroke outboards. Admittedly oil changes are not a big deal, and both should last a long time, but the 4-stroke will also be much more expensive to rebuild.

FWIW, I worked at a fresh water marina for 3 years. If I was buying an outboard, it would be a 4-stroke. Possible exception is a fast bass boat or other performance application, then it would be one of the clean 2-strokes.

I love the new 4-stroke dirt bikes, 2-stroke dirt bikes are dead IMO. Still, some people prefer them. I will miss it when the race track no longer has that castor oil smell in the air.

2-stroke model airplane engines are also endangered, but not by 4-strokes, rather by electric power. Li-Poly batteries are running planes twice as long, with more power, at a lighter weight, and with no balance change due to fuel useage. The only barrier is cost, and prices come down.