Marine Corps Mythos & the Down-to-Earth Army

[Perd Hapley]

I trust on APS this won't devolve into an Army v. Marine squabble, but fun-loving interservice rivalry is certainly welcome.  

Americans have a certain amount of respect for their Army, but the Marine Corps, as we all know, has an enviable reputation among all who respect our military.  For the pacifists, the compliment is given sideways, with Marines regarded as being somehow more Bloodthirsty Neanderthal than the rest of the evil military-industrial complex.  (Or so I presume.)  In the latest conflicts, Marines are re-establishing, reinforcing, and rewriting their old legend for new generations to hold in awe.  Theirs are the stories of heroism and glory in our current wars and civilians praising the virtues of our military are more likely to be discussing Marines than others.

Now I'm not saying the Marine Corps' suppposed superiority is all public perception, but I think the Corps' image has something to do with their success.  By cultivating a legend of the Marine Corps as a tough-as-nails, gung-ho, pain-is-weakness-leaving-the-body, unstoppable, overwhelmingly ferocious fighting force, a certain type of individual is steered toward the Corps and a certain other type selects a different service.  Once in the Corps, the legend, the myth, sets a high standard of service and encourages Marines to meet it, to give their all, to be all that they can be.  OK, nevermind that last clause.  Semper Fi!

My experience in the Army, however, is that the collective ethos is more pragmatic.  The past glory of Army units is sometimes lauded, but generally the attitude is one of "let's just all do our jobs as best we can."  The Army is trying for the mythos approach with its "Army of One" and Warrior talk, and pathetically with it's silly Army Values dog-tags and wallet cards.  I wonder, though, if they shouldn't try harder.  I first realized this mythos gap when I went looking for T-shirts with the Army logo, better yet with my MOS, (Infantry, straight leg/mechanized).  Businesses like US Cav and Brigade Quartermasters have scads of Marine Corps, Ranger, Green Beret and Airborne merchandise, but not so many Army designs, and precious few for non-airborne infantry.  Most of the Army souvenirs are plain and straightforward.  I can only conclude that most of my fellow soldiers aren't all that vocal about their pride in the Army - it's no big deal, let's just do our jobs well.

At least that's how it was when I was discharged last year.

[gaston_45]

The army won't lose that impression untill they get rid of the army of one crap and ... god, I can't even believe they thought for a second that this was a good idea.... calling each other " battle buddies".  That, seriously, is so gay it sounds like something the Navy would euphemisticaly call the gay dudes that slipped through the don't ask don't tell policy and are the reason for the upturned sales of soap on a rope.

[Perd Hapley]

What impression does the Army have?

I don't know what it is people don't like about the "Army of One" idea.  I think it communicates that every unit is as good as the individuals who compose it.  I saw too many soldiers who didn't take thier job seriously, and this was in an infantry unit, where unprofessionalism, even in one soldier, could be deadly.  I know we're all tired of marketing, but still.

[Moondoggie]

Retired Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines here....

Golly gee, where to start?

Undoubtedly, our ethos plays a huge role in our past, present, and future successes.  True, it is a determining factor in the type of folks that we attract.  IMHO, we draw just as many folks who feel that they have something to prove as we do folks of extraordinary talent/ability.  Also a smattering of those who feel that they have nowhere else to go and nothing to lose.  It takes all kinds.  The Marine Corps is a mirror image of the society that it serves.  We simply tweak the image to suit our purposes...never quit, never fail, never accept "good enough".  Practice DOES NOT make perfect........PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect!  I completed a successful 2 yr tour as a DI in '76, saw all kinds of stuff.

Motto over the hatch at DI School..."What you do today, what you FAIL to do today, could one day change the course of history."

Quoting from memory here...the Marine Corps provides the DOD 15% of its combat personnel, and 18% of its tactical aircraft for approximately 6% of the DOD budget.  Doing more with less is our SOP.  You can look up the stats, but our Officer to enlisted ratio is far lower than the other services.  We push tremendous responsibility down to the lowest level, and hold that junior NCO/SNCO accountable for everything they do...or fail to do.  At any given moment, every Marine is supposed to be prepared to assume the responsibility of someone at least two levels above his billet assignment.  When you've "got the dot", you're THE MAN...no questions asked.  If you find 2 Marine Privates together, one of them is "In Charge", and they both know who that is.

Up until the day I retired, I felt a need to do something every day to perpetuate our standards and traditions.  Very few "Lifers" in the Marines.

The Army has their history, traditions, and purpose.  Rangers are some of the finest fighting troops on the planet.  They have their mission, and we have ours.

Besides, if it weren't for the Army, where would we go when we were in the "Midnight Requisition" mode?

[Leatherneck]

^^^What the Top said. I've had the privilege of observing each of the services from the outside since I retired in 1985 (OSD). Marines take pride in dogged determination to get the mission accomplished, no matter what, and by any means necessary.

The Army suffers from size--it's so big and diverse that there are always abundant examples of "pogues" to see. i.e., guys who are not combat arms or even combat support, but mainly bureaucrats; necessary perhaps, but they don't contribute directly to combat power. All Marines do--it's the ols "every Marine is, first, a rifleman" ethos. And it's true. Those of us who were in supporting arms (close air support for me) always identified with the grunts on the ground. We knew that if it weren't for them, we'd have no purpose. We'd move Heaven and earth to do what was needed for the grunts. Then we'd meet them in the bar and the name-calling would start (DAPS (dumb-assed pilots) vs. IFGOs (ignorant effing ground officers)). But encounter a common enemy, and stand by--

Our Corps enjoys a comeraderie and elan that sometimes goes so far as to be BS, but which always translates directly to combat. That comes from being small, and yEs--pretty good at what we do. No boast, just observation.

Not always so, of course, and I'll bet every Marine you ask, whether active, retired, or off active duty, fears right now that we all will get a black eye if the worst turns out to be true concerning the Hidatha attack.

I value greatly every Army soldier I know (my son-in-law is a Blackhawk pilot and one of my favorite people), but the Marines have a special place in my heart.

TC

[Moondoggie]

Hey, Leatherneck...If you can put a string around my waist and spin me, THEN you can call me "Top".


"Top" is what I was called when I was a "mere" Master Sergeant.


It's "Master Guns" to you, sir.   F'ing pilots, geez!  (Just kidding!)

Semper Fi!

[garyk/nm]

I sense that if this conversation were face-to-face, there would be minor fisticuffs followed by massive consumption of beer.
Army here. Non-infantry, no battle experience. In my experience (a long, long time ago) the Army gets the "everyman", while the Marines get the gung-ho patriotic types (exceptions of course). The difference shows in the results.
I have the utmost respect for anyone who makes it as a Marine. One of my co-workers is a recently discharged Marine, and I am supremely happy that he has my back while we are bar-hopping in small redneck towns.

[esheato]

I don't have any valuable input on the original topic, but I couldn't help myself in regards to this comment by Moondoggie.

"You can look up the stats, but our Officer to enlisted ratio is far lower than the other services."

As a USAF intel troop, we have more Lieutenants than I know what to do with. They're like rabbits..they just keep multiplying.

Ed

[Perd Hapley]

Hey, Leatherneck...If you can put a string around my waist and spin me, THEN you can call me "Top".

I always suspected you boys had other secrets to your success.  I like girls, though, so the Corps wouldn't take me.  

The Army suffers from size--it's so big and diverse that there are always abundant examples of "pogues" to see. i.e., guys who are not combat arms or even combat support, but mainly bureaucrats; necessary perhaps, but they don't contribute directly to combat power. All Marines do--it's the ols "every Marine is, first, a rifleman" ethos. And it's true. Those of us who were in supporting arms (close air support for me) always identified with the grunts on the ground. We knew that if it weren't for them, we'd have no purpose. We'd move Heaven and earth to do what was needed for the grunts. Then we'd meet them in the bar and the name-calling would start (DAPS (dumb-assed pilots) vs. IFGOs (ignorant effing ground officers)). But encounter a common enemy, and stand by--

So you're saying the Army has a greater ratio of pogues to combat arms?  Why?  Is this something the Army should change or is it necessary to the Army's different mission?  What might be the difference in misson, if any?

My apologies to any offended pogues, but it comes naturally after a few years active duty in an infantry unit.  Is there a better term for you guys?

[Brian Williams]

I have often been asked if I was in the Army and I reply calmly "No, the Marines" and just about everyone pauses and says something to the effect "They are the tough ones?"


Cpl Willi

[Jamisjockey]

Retired Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines here....


Quoting from memory here...the Marine Corps provides the DOD 15% of its combat personnel, and 18% of its tactical aircraft for approximately 6% of the DOD budget.  Doing more with less is our SOP.  You can look up the stats, but our Officer to enlisted ratio is far lower than the other services.  We push tremendous responsibility down to the lowest level, and hold that junior NCO/SNCO accountable for everything they do...or fail to do.  At any given moment, every Marine is supposed to be prepared to assume the responsibility of someone at least two levels above his billet assignment.  When you've "got the dot", you're THE MAN...no questions asked.  If you find 2 Marine Privates together, one of them is "In Charge", and they both know who that is.

?

The Master Guns hit the nail on the head.  I'm going to expound a little on this comment, though.
When I was a 21 year old E3 Lance Corporal, I was put in Charge of entire shifts in the Air Traffic Control Tower.  My job was to oversee the operation, ensure a safe operation, and conduct training to those with lower certifications.  That included dealing with outside agencies (ARFF, Squadrons, etc) and quite often giving direction and guidance to SNCO's and Officers, both in the tower and in those other agencies.  My duty station was MCAS Yuma, AZ.  Being a leader, and accepting responsibility for the good or the bad, was something I was taught beginning early even in boot camp.

[Leatherneck]

First, a public apology to Master Gunnery Sergeant Moondoggie (that sounds funny). No demotion intended, my friend: blame aging eyes that saw only "Master" and not the rest.

Tooth-to-tail ratio is part of it, as is the Corps' tradition of putting heavy responsibility on young Marines. People, I've found, have a way of living up to expectations. When you assign responsibility for leadership to a youngster he or she most often will behave admirably. Not always, of course, so senior leadership must monitor and correct as needed. The Corps generally does an outstanding job along those lines.

TC

[K Frame]

Navy rules.

[roo_ster]

The USMC may have one culture, but the US Army is large enough to sport several.

Airborne units have an ethos similar to USMC.  USASOC itself has several, distinct cultures.  Tankers have an ethos unique to them.

Personally, I was content to stay within my own corner of USASOC and stay out of what I called the "Big Army" units.  I heard too many horror stories about women in units, malingerers, etc. to want to spend much time in the Big Army.