Urea is in short supply

[sumpnz]

I’m somewhat with you Nick.  But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement.  NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.

[Nick1911]

I’m somewhat with you Nick.  But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement.  NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.

And I definitely agree with you there.  There are points of diminishing returns, where the cost and effort just vastly outweigh any good it will do.

[Ben]

I’m somewhat with you Nick.  But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement.  NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.

Not to mention other consequences. My old F250 Diesel was the first year of the DPF. I don't recall exact numbers, but my gas mileage was around 5MPG average less than the previous year's F250. When it went into regen, you could watch the MPG go down from 20ish to 12-13.

Perhaps the pollution controls are more refined now, but at that time it seems you were sorta trading one form of pollution for another, kind of like electric cars.

[MechAg94]

Unpopular opinion time!  As I've gotten older, I've gotten a little softer on the hard-line libertarian "Keep your damn regs off my car, I'll throw tires in bonfires if I want, THE ATMOSPHERE IS MY TRASH CAN!"

Okay, I never really believed the last bit.  But I did rather disagree with sweeping environmental regulations that impose massive costs on us, the end consumers.  Let the consumers make their choices, and keep the government out of it.

But when I'm driving down the road and I'm behind:
- A beater 90's Honda the driver of which spent thousands on aftermarket bolt on crap, but couldn't be bothered to replace the valve seals that are dumping oil into the cylinders
- Someone that's irresponsible enough to think illegally modifying their diesel truck and "rolling coal" has any redeeming value.
- Someone who you can tell, by smell, doesn't have a catalytic converter
- Old diesel triaxles that billow clouds of incomplete combustion when they accelerate

...or countless other examples, I think that maybe I don't really want this crap in the air I'm breathing?

Free-market capitalism doesn't do a good job of dealing with negative externalities.

I agree to a point.  When I was a kid, I used to get a little sick if we went into Houston.  After driving around in traffic all day, the fumes could be pretty bad.  That was before unleaded gas and such.  It is a great deal more pleasant to drive today than it was then.  However, we got there a long time ago.  I agree with sumpnz that most of the push now is well beyond reasonable emissions reduction. 

[Boomhauer]

I’m somewhat with you Nick.  But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement.  NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.

Billions in R&D plus parts that need to be replaced often due to failure (I’ve had the DEF sensor fail on 20 hour machines), parts that need to be replaced due to idiots (such as pouring DEF into the hydraulic system), additional fuel burn to perform the regen and then halving the life of an engine (or worse) and the more onerous states forcing replacement (California) and it’s *expletive deleted*ing rediculous.

[Boomhauer]

Down to 14 2.5 gal totes of DEF at work. Hope we are able to get some more soon.

[Jim147]

Down to 14 2.5 gal totes of DEF at work. Hope we are able to get some more soon.

Have you tried putting the empties in the restroom and asking them to fill them up?

[Bogie]

We were down to one this evening.
 
Next major shipment is tomorrow. We'll see if any are included.
 
We had something like 10 gallons, total, of various 15w-40 diesel oil in the store...
 
Various. No Rotella, no synthetics.

[charby]

Well last time I asked how much nitrogen fertilizer was for a ton, the reply was $1550 if they can get it.

Several folks in the ag industry told me it isn't supply, it's the truck transportation from manufacturer or pipeline terminal to the next location is the biggest reason for the shortage and price spike. What is being moved now is nitrogen that was purchased last summer for fall application (Anhydrous, liquid, or dry nitrogen fertilizer).

Good luck getting any quantities of glyphosate now or next year too. Bayer (Monsanto) is going to quit packaging it for consumer use due to all the roundup lawsuits, still be available for ag and commercial use. Shortages right now is due to tech being made in China with manufacturing and supply chain issues to have it formulated here.

[Nick1911]

Several folks in the ag industry told me it isn't supply, it's the truck transportation from manufacturer or pipeline terminal to the next location is the biggest reason for the shortage and price spike. What is being moved now is nitrogen that was purchased last summer for fall application (Anhydrous, liquid, or dry nitrogen fertilizer).

I could see that.  I was thinking that the US domestically produced a good bit of ammonia.  A brief bit of digging suggests that's true.

"Ammonia is produced at 32 plants in 17 states and shipped around the country by pipeline, rail, barge, and truck. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, U.S. ammonia production has been increasing since 2015, rising 46% from 11.6 million metric tons per year (mt/y) to 17.0 million mt/y in 2020. With growth in domestic production outpacing growth in demand, U.S. reliance on imported ammonia has decreased from 40% in 2010 to 13% in 2020."

However, natural gas is a major feed-stock into Haber-Bosch reactors, and I understand that it is getting more expensive.  That probably doesn't help prices.

[French G.]

We deal with tier 4 stuff and meanwhile I am told by heavy equipment auction regulars that the older equipment that can actually be self repaired gets snapped up and sent off-shore. China, India, whoever. Right to repair is huge, I have made plenty use of a $1500 JD backhoe, if I had to pay for a new one and dealer service I guess I would be back to a shovel.

[Boomhauer]

We deal with tier 4 stuff and meanwhile I am told by heavy equipment auction regulars that the older equipment that can actually be self repaired gets snapped up and sent off-shore. China, India, whoever. Right to repair is huge, I have made plenty use of a $1500 JD backhoe, if I had to pay for a new one and dealer service I guess I would be back to a shovel.

The kicker is the third world can buy all the non emissions and non electronic engines they want, brand new. They can also buy used Tier4 machines here and the manufacturer will provide the files and components to do a full delete of the emissions system.

I was up at the dozer plant in Peoria a few years ago and what was on the line was older model dozers for export.