Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 30, 2014, 10:30:30 AM
-
More to come: Supreme Court sides with religious-owned businesses that don't want to provide contraception for employees via the employer healthcare insurance.
Details to follow.
-
5-4.
Our nation is screwed.
-
5-4.
Our nation is screwed.
You just now figured that out?
-
Don't really have time to dig through the opinion text right now. Anybody want to summarize Kennedy's concurring opinion?
-
You just now figured that out?
Thank you for the laugh. I need some sunshine amidst the doom and gloom at times.
(And no, I didn't just figure it out. It's just more evidence of it. BUT, I'm really trying not to become Manedwolf over all of this. I know there is hope- we live in a very divided country. Likely around that same 5:4 ratio that flips back and forth.)
-
More to come: Supreme Court sides with religious-owned businesses that don't want to provide contraception for employees via the employer healthcare insurance.
Details to follow.
Yay!
SCOTUS gets one right for once.
-
Thank you for the laugh. I need some sunshine amidst the doom and gloom at times.
(And no, I didn't just figure it out. It's just more evidence of it. BUT, I'm really trying not to become Manedwolf over all of this. I know there is hope- we live in a very divided country. Likely around that same 5:4 ratio that flips back and forth.)
I miss that guy. Aside from the part at the end where he went crazy he was one of our best posters.
-
I miss that guy. Aside from the part at the end where he went crazy he was one of our best posters.
Me too. I appreciated his comments. I thought he was unnecessarily gloomy on our outlook, but at least it was understandable.
-
Yay!
SCOTUS gets one right for once.
Too narrow, but I'll take wins where we get them.
I understand the Conservative majority likes to practice judicial restraint, feeling that making more sweeping decisions will create a destabilizing see-saw effect in American jurisprudence. Except like everything else when battling the ends-justify-the-means-Left, they don't do the same.
The public sector union ruling was also good, but exactly the same. If First Amendment freedom of association applies to the visiting healthcare assistants, I fail to see why it doesn't apply to everyone in a .gov union.
-
5-4.
Our nation is screwed.
razor's edge
-
The response has been predictably measured and reasonable. NSFW, and yeah yeah I know our side does it to. Still fun to watch.
http://twitchy.com/2014/06/30/fuk-you-left-wingers-want-to-burn-down-hobby-lobby-after-scotus-win/
http://twitchy.com/2014/06/30/you-disgust-me-angry-lefties-scold-scotusblog-for-hobby-lobby-decision-just-one-problem/
-
The response has been predictably measured and reasonable. NSFW, and yeah yeah I know our side does it to. Still fun to watch.
http://twitchy.com/2014/06/30/fuk-you-left-wingers-want-to-burn-down-hobby-lobby-after-scotus-win/
http://twitchy.com/2014/06/30/you-disgust-me-angry-lefties-scold-scotusblog-for-hobby-lobby-decision-just-one-problem/
Someone here recently predicted Idiocracy-level society in 20 years. May be optimistic...
-
The decision.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-354_olp1.pdf
-
Someone here recently predicted Idiocracy-level society in 20 years. May be optimistic...
That's a fact.
Reading some of those comments,along with others of a political bent,it's obvious that self control and personal responsibility are flying out the window.
If it weren't so scary it'd just be amusing.I mean really,screaming for the deaths of the Supreme Court Justices?The murder of the owners of Hobby Lobby?Burn down all their stores?There's going to be a revolution?(Well,I think they got the last one right.)
I wonder if any of those...strident(?)posters commenting about murder and arson would actually say anything even close to that were they to be in a room full of strangers?
Internet anonymity at it's finest.
That vote was too close.
-
Someone here recently predicted Idiocracy-level society in 20 years. May be optimistic...
The time frame, or the potential intelligence level?
-
I wonder if any of those...strident(?)posters commenting about murder and arson would actually say anything even close to that were they to be in a room full of strangers?
More to the point, would they still say it if they were facing a line of armed defenders in front of a Hobby Lobby?
-
I wonder if any of those...strident(?)posters commenting about murder and arson would actually say anything even close to that were they to be in a room full of strangers?
Coming from a state where the ugliness of the left was on display for all to see for over a year when they were protesting Gov Scott Walker at the WI Capitol building I can say a definate Yes.
-
Someone here recently predicted Idiocracy-level society in 20 years. May be optimistic...
That was me. I'll take the hit on being a crappy seer. Maybe buying one of those disused missile silos to spend my remaining years in wouldn't be all that bad of an investment.
-
I do think it's funny that the majority of hate posts are crying about Hobby Lobby "denying" women contraception. Since Hobby Lobby is not the government, they can not, and are not, denying women anything. I believe any one of their female employees can head on down to the corner drug store and buy all the contraceptives they want.
-
I do think it's funny that the majority of hate posts are crying about Hobby Lobby "denying" women contraception. Since Hobby Lobby is not the government, they can not, and are not, denying women anything. I believe any one of their female employees can head on down to the corner drug store and buy all the contraceptives they want.
Some folks believe that if the .gov doesn't force someone else to pay for it for you, they're "denying" it to you.
-
The time frame, or the potential intelligence level?
I intended time frame, but now that you mention it, no reason to set the bar artificially high.
-
I had never read the details of this dispute, but just learned that apparently Hobby Lobby already (voluntarily) provides a choice of sixteen different forms of contraception to employees. Kinda makes the wacko response just that much more wacko. Sandra Fluke is really getting taken to task on it. I wonder how many forms of contraception she believes a woman needs? :)
-
I had never read the details of this dispute, but just learned that apparently Hobby Lobby already (voluntarily) provides a choice of sixteen different forms of contraception to employees. Kinda makes the wacko response just that much more wacko. Sandra Fluke is really getting taken to task on it. I wonder how many forms of contraception she believes a woman needs? :)
16? I can only think of 5. I'm being denied!Burn the place down!They didn't tell me!Die!Die!Die!I DEMAND MY SIXTEEN FORMS OF BIRTH CONTROL!AND A FEMALE YOGA INSTRUCTOR!AND A BEER!WITH BACON! :mad:
Really,16?Are super glue and duct tape involved? ;)
-
16? I can only think of 5.
Yeah, it must be some combination of types and brands or something.
-
My employer only offers two, regardless of gender; abstinence, or abstinence and STFU about it.
-
A total of 20 types on the insurance plan. I'm sure it's mostly just different brands of the same general thing. Only 4 are abortifacent, and those are the only ones HL didn't want to supply.
-
if I recall correctly, the main contraception being objected to in these cases was the morning after pill, insofar as some see it as an abortifacient, and that it be mandated to be covered under the insurance. This is now available over the counter at a fairly nominal cost.
-
My employer only offers two, regardless of gender; abstinence, or abstinence and STFU about it.
Best!
You have permission to necro 3 more threads this week.
Carry on. :police:
-
I can think of no more expensive way to pay for contraception than the gov't-stroked prepaid medical plan. Take a cheap & ubiquitous drug and insert 20 grubby & sticky-fingered bureaucrats between buyer and seller to make the effective cost go through the roof.
And make no mistake, this sort of thing is prepaid medical and not insurance.
-
I can think of no more expensive way to pay for contraception than the gov't-stroked prepaid medical plan. Take a cheap & ubiquitous drug and insert 20 grubby & sticky-fingered bureaucrats between buyer and seller to make the effective cost go through the roof.
And make no mistake, this sort of thing is prepaid medical and not insurance.
http://planbonestep.com/coupon.aspx
Roughly $45-$50 without $10 coupon. Found at Walmart, Target, Walgreens, et al.
-
See how this decision potentially opens the door to stoning (the painful kind with actual rocks) and genital mutilation: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/religious-companies-opt-out-of-laws_n_5544582.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/religious-companies-opt-out-of-laws_n_5544582.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)
(Don't ask me why I opened a HuffPo link-no good explanation beyond morbid fascination.)
-
Taxes, unless you want to stop using anything that is paid for by taxes, nope. Social Security IS however optional on religious grounds, which the Amish already won. Thing is, they don't pay for it, but they don't collect either. They have their own version.
Stoning and honor killings, because you'd be causing direct harm to another person, that'd be a no.
Weed/hemp, LSD, perhaps they SHOULD be legalized, you friggin statist morons?
Also, nudity and raw milk are legal in certain areas. Or at least, the laws aren't enforced. The raw milk became an issue locally with the feds.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/28/feds-sting-amish-farmer-selling-raw-milk-locally/?page=all
There are signs locally for raw milk, so if it's illegal, it's not well enforced. I suspect it's only "interstate commerce" illegal.
-
So let me get this straight, because my wife's family is exploding liberal all over Facebook. Facts of case are:
HL'S insurance carrier offers a variety of contraceptives. But only ones that do the work prior to conception.
Employee wanted the morning after pill, which since it does it's deed after the sperm and egg meet, HL considers an abortion.
Rather then take any of the number of available, paid for drugs, or get her own abortion, Employee sued.
That pretty much what happened?
-
So let me get this straight, because my wife's family is exploding liberal all over Facebook. Facts of case are:
HL'S insurance carrier offers a variety of contraceptives. But only ones that do the work prior to conception.
Employee wanted the morning after pill, which since it does it's deed after the sperm and egg meet, HL considers an abortion.
Rather then take any of the number of available, paid for drugs, or get her own abortion, Employee sued.
That pretty much what happened?
I don't think Hobby Lobby was sued by an employee. They filed suit against .gov, specifically HHS.
-
It seems there has been quite a progression from "you must let me do x" to "you must approve of x" to "you must pay for me to do x," and not just on this particular issue.
-
It seems there has been quite a progression from "you must let me do x" to "you must approve of x" to "you must pay for me to do x," and not just on this particular issue.
Oh, yeah.
-
Taxes, unless you want to stop using anything that is paid for by taxes, nope. Social Security IS however optional on religious grounds, which the Amish already won. Thing is, they don't pay for it, but they don't collect either. They have their own version.
Unlike those of us that are forced to pay in to it and will likely never see a dime of it come back.
-
It seems there has been quite a progression from "you must let me do x" to "you must approve of x" to "you must pay for me to do x," and not just on this particular issue.
I've been entertaining myself on FB by telling various people who bitch about it that if refusing to pay for something is violating another person's rights, they can go buy me the stuff on my Midway wish list and stop violating my Second Amendment rights.
-
It seems there has been quite a progression from "you must let me do x" to "you must approve of x" to "you must pay for me to do x," and not just on this particular issue.
“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”
----Bob Hope
-
While trying to keep up on where traffic was bad I had the radio on while driving home from the Oregon Coast yesterday. The talk show that was on had a couple fill in hosts that were talking about this. The woman of the team was bitching because the BC she wanted wasn't covered by the Mormon owned parent company of the station. She wanted some name brand OC but couldn't afford (or at least justify in her mind) paying $50/month (or whatever) out of her own pocket and got the generic instead for $15/month. Somehow this got morphed into feeling like her employer was standing between her and her doctor. Ummmm, cry me a river?? Her gyn apparently recommended an IUD, but without "insurance" coverage for that it was "out of her price range".
God forbid we allow the marketplace's price signals to direct our behavior.
-
While trying to keep up on where traffic was bad I had the radio on while driving home from the Oregon Coast yesterday. The talk show that was on had a couple fill in hosts that were talking about this. The woman of the team was bitching because the BC she wanted wasn't covered by the Mormon owned parent company of the station. She wanted some name brand OC but couldn't afford (or at least justify in her mind) paying $50/month (or whatever) out of her own pocket and got the generic instead for $15/month. Somehow this got morphed into feeling like her employer was standing between her and her doctor. Ummmm, cry me a river?? Her gyn apparently recommended an IUD, but without "insurance" coverage for that it was "out of her price range".
God forbid we allow the marketplace's price signals to direct our behavior.
And she doesn't realize that she's asking her employer to stand there, with his wallet out. :facepalm:
Or like the little gem I ran across on Twitchy last night - some moron saying that the Supremes should have ruled against Hobby Lobby, as their employees' reproductive health is not that company's business. :facepalm:
-
The underlying reality of this decision should have the neo-libprogs dancing in the street. Why? Because it is a declaration of the 1A(part B) "The Freedom From Religion."
This got the goobermint out of religion because Ubomacare mandated the providing of birth control of all types and the court told the government they must remain separate and stay out of religious belief. I've been annoying the spit slingers by telling 'em that on Book of Faces. If you don't want religion telling you how to live by mingling church and state, then you can't tell the religious how they must live in the same fashion.
Funny how the left always wants it cake and eat it too, but throws a fit if they can't.
-
I must have seen half a dozen of my FB friends post a picture from NARAL, with a picture of a packet of Viagra on the left ("Under the Supreme Court ruling, THIS is legally covered by health insurance...") and a case of some form of hormonal birth control pills, one of the little round cases with 30 pills around the edge so she can easily see that's she's current on her pill, on the right ("... and this is illegal.")
I so want to tear into these people for either being dupes, or for lying, but I know that if I do, it'll be blown off - and mostly because all those people are women and I'm an EvilMaleâ„¢.
-
Disregarding the difference between not covered by insurance and illegal, as I understand it the hormonal birth control was covered by Hobby Lobby's insurance.
-
Disregarding the difference between not covered by insurance and illegal, as I understand it the hormonal birth control was covered by Hobby Lobby's insurance.
It was. Always has been, IIRC. They want to disallow coverage for the 4 types (out of 20 "birth control" methods that are currently FDA-approved) which they call abortifacients, but have no issues covering the other 16, which prevent fertilization from occurring..
Those 16 are of the type NARAL refers to as "illegal" in the image my leftist FB friends have been posting. The 30-day hormonal BC pill packs.
ETA: Found the image - (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F31.media.tumblr.com%2F689b761174ed656501d153e04205a5d8%2Ftumblr_n7zt15NLQ91rs8e09o1_500.jpg&hash=f0a59ae1446c899c92020eb004b8dfea00f4019f)
I was wrong about the text. Just says, "Covered." and "Not Covered." Which is still a lie, of course. What I posted previously was obviously either editorializing in the text of the post by someone in the posting chain on FB, or my own faulty memory writing something which was not there. Not sure which, at the moment.
-
“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”
----Bob Hope
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Thanks, I needed the laugh.
-
razor's edge
Razor's edge indeed. With 5-4 decisions what I think is really happening is that the centermost judge gets to decide the scope of the ruling. Is it a sweeping ruling or a very narrow one.
Consider RKBA cases. A sweeping change would kill the NFA. A narrow one is 'you can't ban all guns in an area'.
I don't think Hobby Lobby was sued by an employee. They filed suit against .gov, specifically HHS.
Bingo. It's the federal government that said healthcare plans must include birth control, and as an aside most health 'insurance' companies are more than willing to make BC 'free' because it's cheaper than the other options. Babies are expensive.
-
Babies are expensive.
So is beer. I want taxpayers to pay for my raging beer habit. I have a right to free recreational beer consumption, and someone else should pay for it. $50 worth of the drug per week should cover it. Whahhh!
-
I also got into a battle over this on FB. Entertaining but loads of stupid.
Although I just realized... Why does insurance cover these anyway? Everytime I ever went to the doctor and was told to take stuff that was avalible over the counter I never got a prescription for it.
Planned Parenthood had it for $34 and all I had to do was show i.d. and sign a piece of paper. It was less a hassle then getting pseudoephedrine. ???
-
So is beer. I want taxpayers to pay for my raging beer habit.
Hookers are expensive too. What good are free condoms if they won't pay for someone to use them with?
-
Hookers are expensive too.
How many times do we have to tell you?!? They're call girls. They're only hookers when they're dead.
-
How many times do we have to tell you?!? They're call girls. They're only hookers when they're dead.
Depending on where you get them, they can be more expensive when they're dead.
-
Although I just realized... Why does insurance cover these anyway? Everytime I ever went to the doctor and was told to take stuff that was avalible over the counter I never got a prescription for it.
Planned Parenthood had it for $34 and all I had to do was show i.d. and sign a piece of paper. It was less a hassle then getting pseudoephedrine. Huh?
Depending on your insurance, it can be cheaper to buy it using the insurance than over the counter. Plus, if you have a Flex Spending or an HSA card, you can only use those cards for the purchase if you have a prescription.
A lot of our Medicaid patients get prescriptions for everything - makes the medications ridiculously cheap/free.
-
So is beer. I want taxpayers to pay for my raging beer habit. I have a right to free recreational beer consumption, and someone else should pay for it. $50 worth of the drug per week should cover it. Whahhh!
Then find a company insurance plan willing to pay for it. ;)
I think that we should agree that a healthcare plan that doesn't cover realistic health conditions is worse than useless. Early intervention can be the difference between a fully formed healthy baby and a mentally disadvantaged one that ends up on the state's dime for the rest of it's life.
I was solely looking at that pregnancy is a covered condition(kuddos Hobby Lobby for going that far!) and it's expensive. Wasn't really looking at that it's government mandated or anything.
As an aside, one of the other sites was mentioning how BC drugs are often used to treat conditions other than preventing pregnancy. Are the banned 4 on that list? I think that was one of the uproars - in order to provide the prescription 'only' for non-abortion/BC use the medical privacy veil would have to be pierced.
Depending on your insurance, it can be cheaper to buy it using the insurance than over the counter. Plus, if you have a Flex Spending or an HSA card, you can only use those cards for the purchase if you have a prescription.
Given that I seriously approve of Healthcare Savings Accounts where people pay for their own care, perhaps their scope needs to be expanded a touch.
-
Given that I seriously approve of Healthcare Savings Accounts where people pay for their own care, perhaps their scope needs to be expanded a touch.
To continue that tangent, I am continually perplexed that all the progressives that want us all to have health care as a right don't want to do anything regarding the taxing of it. If they really want to make things easier on Americans, ALL health care costs would be tax deductible. As it is, you have to exceed 10% of your income in medical expenses before you can claim any deductions. I guess it's only a "right" as long as it doesn't interfere with the King's share of the crop.
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc502.html
-
To continue that tangent, I am continually perplexed that all the progressives that want us all to have health care as a right don't want to do anything regarding the taxing of it. If they really want to make things easier on Americans, ALL health care costs would be tax deductible
Innumeracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeracy).
(I'm groping for words, but i think there's much more to it than that. A deep and fundamental irrationality, as though the world was not an integrated whole.)
As it is, you have to exceed 10% of your income in medical expenses before you can claim any deductions.
Well ****. We're gonna blow right past that this year. Already have.
-
Given that I seriously approve of Healthcare Savings Accounts where people pay for their own care, perhaps their scope needs to be expanded restored a touch.
FTFY. HSAs used to cover over-the-counter meds with no prescription. You can thank the "Affordable" Care Act for eliminating that option.
-
So is beer. I want taxpayers to pay for my raging beer habit. I have a right to free recreational beer consumption, and someone else should pay for it. $50 worth of the drug per week should cover it. Whahhh!
Union chefs job you can drink on job employer provides beer
Bonus same union will pay for rehab
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Great line I just saw on Twitchy:
On this Independence Day, many still upset at a Supreme Court that limits their right to be dependent.
http://twitchy.com/2014/07/04/birth-control-heartache-tormented-lefties-mourn-right-to-be-dependent-on-independence-day/
-
From reading those comments I get the impression that Hobby Lobby must have about a million unhappy morons working for them.
I wonder if any of them have asked their employers if that decision effects them?
Idiots.
Someone should start an internet rumor that the Supreme Court has added to their decision and now requires mandatory,permanent sterilization for all women.
[popcorn]
Now THAT'D be funny.
-
Pretty bizarre how some of those comments talk about the Supreme Court "taking us back" fifty years, or back to 1776. How long ago do they think Obamacare was enacted? ???
-
Great line I just saw on Twitchy:
http://twitchy.com/2014/07/04/birth-control-heartache-tormented-lefties-mourn-right-to-be-dependent-on-independence-day/
Not sure if I'm supposed to know who Holly Fisher is.
http://twitchy.com/2014/07/03/holly-fisher-makes-liberal-heads-explode-with-hat-trick-photo-pic/
http://twitchy.com/2014/07/04/victory-holly-fisher-addresses-biggest-complaint-about-hobby-lobby-hat-trick-photo-pic/
-
Interesting that the current episode of NPR's On Being is about how the Klan popularized the formula "separation of church and state."