McCain & School Choice/Vouchers at the NAACP

[roo_ster]

IF he can break the back of the Educrat unions and help push vouchers, I might have a reason to vote FOR McCain rather than vote AGAINST BHO.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/us/politics/16text-mccain.html?pagewanted=all
Voucher bit:

After decades of hearing the same big promises from the public education establishment, and seeing the same poor results, it is surely time to shake off old ways and to demand new reforms. That isn't just my opinion; it is the conviction of parents in poor neighborhoods across this nation who want better lives for their children. In Washington, D.C., the Opportunity Scholarship program serves more than 1,900 boys and girls from families with an average income of 23,000 dollars a year. And more than 7,000 more families have applied for that program. What they all have in common is the desire to get their kids into a better school.

Democrats in Congress, including my opponent, oppose the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship program. In remarks to the American Federation of Teachers last weekend, Senator Obama dismissed public support for private school vouchers for low-income Americans as, "tired rhetoric about vouchers and school choice." All of that went over well with the teachers union, but where does it leave families and their children who are stuck in failing schools?

Over the years, Americans have heard a lot of "tired rhetoric" about education. We've heard it in the endless excuses of people who seem more concerned about their own position than about our children. We've heard it from politicians who accept the status quo rather than stand up for real change in our public schools. Parents ask only for schools that are safe, teachers who are competent, and diplomas that open doors of opportunity. When a public system fails, repeatedly, to meet these minimal objectives, parents ask only for a choice in the education of their children. Some parents may choose a better public school. Some may choose a private school. Many will choose a charter school. No entrenched bureaucracy or union should deny parents that choice and children that opportunity.

We should also offer more choices to those who wish to become teachers. Many thousands of highly qualified men and women have great knowledge, wisdom, and experience to offer public school students. But a monopoly on teacher certification prevents them from getting that chance. You can be a Nobel Laureate and not qualify to teach in most public schools today. They don't have all the proper credits in educational "theory" or "methodology"  all they have is learning and the desire and ability to share it. If we're putting the interests of students first, then those qualifications should be enough.

If I am elected president, school choice for all who want it, an expansion of Opportunity Scholarships, and alternative certification for teachers will all be part of a serious agenda of education reform. I will target funding to recruit teachers who graduate in the top 25 percent of their class, or who participate in an alternative teacher recruitment program such as Teach for America, the American Board for Teacher Excellence, and the New Teacher Project.

[MicroBalrog]

Aren't tax credits better than vouchers?

[agricola]

Aren't tax credits better than vouchers?

If they are like the tax credits over here, no.  A system that takes your money, then makes you apply to get some of it back, is very rarely better than anything.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Whatwhatwhat?  McCain is advocating for a sensible, conservative idea...?  What's the world coming to?

[longeyes]

Vouchers aren't going to happen.  Public ed is a vast middle-class welfare system; they aren't giving that up.

[yesitsloaded]

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right, and be competent workers are killing society. People go to college more now not because they need the skills learned in college, it is because they learned NOTHING in high school. I've seen these kids around campus, they got all As in high school but can't follow a budget, perform simple repairs on automobiles, write a resume, find Iraq on a map, explain common economic theories (opportunity cost, supply and demand, benefits of trade, etc.), and other things. In other words they are helpless people that can do nothing but spout facts and feelings. They lack the ability to think critically. I personally blame equally the lack of parenting combined with the school systems.

[longeyes]

Yes, but you're thinking ahead to the future of the nation.

Maybe more teachers should be doing that instead of calculating their retirement pensions instead.

Schools exist to keep teachers and administrators middle-class.

[FTA84]

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right, and be competent workers are killing society. People go to college more now not because they need the skills learned in college, it is because they learned NOTHING in high school. I've seen these kids around campus, they got all As in high school but can't follow a budget, perform simple repairs on automobiles, write a resume, find Iraq on a map, explain common economic theories (opportunity cost, supply and demand, benefits of trade, etc.), and other things. In other words they are helpless people that can do nothing but spout facts and feelings. They lack the ability to think critically. I personally blame equally the lack of parenting combined with the school systems.

I think that the major component (speaking as a professor) is the sense of entitlement that has gripped the current generation of students.  They feel the are entitled to go to college (which they I believe everyone is entitled at a chance to go to a good school) but more so, they feel they are entitled to get a degree, no matter how much or how little they work (because they are entitled to parties, alcohol and sex).  Why? Because they are entitled to have a job with great pay, low benefits and two months of vacation (to continue with the life of parties, booze and sex).  Most students today play games with their education -- and almost anyone can get a 4 year degree from some school in something.  It seems like students in low level courses expect what they get from highschool these days.  They expect me to walk in, tell them what will be on the exam, and make the exam a carbon copy of it.  Then they can miss every problem on and still get an A.

I did an experiment one year where I gave a quiz to a freshman class.  The set-up was as follows.  I would do a homework problem (that was assigned the night before and it was one of 3 problems I said would be on the quiz) for the students step-by-step, an easy problem (usually one of the first problems in the section).   The quiz would then be that exact problem.  I never had less than 10% of the students get a zero. (Most of these problems were based on material that should be known to any 9th grade highschool student).  I give up!

Perhaps I am just jaded because I worked hard and had zero advantages (paid for college myself and tripled majored, still graduated in under 4 years) and everyone else seemed to have college paid for, a new car, spent all their time drinking and could hang out for an indefinite amount of years on some lame degree.

My parents didn't provide much for me except the advice that a 12 hour day of physical labor still leaves you 6 hours to work in the evenings.

[wmenorr67]

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right

That should be the job of the parents.

[MicroBalrog]

Aren't tax credits better than vouchers?

If they are like the tax credits over here, no.  A system that takes your money, then makes you apply to get some of it back, is very rarely better than anything.

1. Tax credits are better than school vouchers because they don't discriminate against homeschoolers, and allow parents to save money and apply it elsewhere if they find a cheaper school.


2.

School vouchers, or tax credits, or whatever, are awesome.

They're the number one libertarian idea of those who have been mainstreamed.

Ladies and gentlemen, I cannot stress it enough:

School vouchers are the best thing since sliced bread.

Why is that?

Because the machine of mass public education is the key component of the modern State. It allows it, and especially the statist left, to replicate itself by pushing its mindset on the millions of young kids.

If we allow the millions of parents to opt out of the system (basically get their own money back) and choose the content of their own children's education, then the welfare state will go and die.

Yes, some of the parents will send their kids to schools you and I won't like - Muslim schools, leftoid schools, whatever. But in the main, a lot, and a lot of people will evac straight out of the modern NEA-dominated school system.

May so help me God, McCain may not realize this, but this is, effectively, privatisation of education by the back door, and this is why the Left hates it.

Let me say it again:

School vouchers are a sharp, laser-guided, rocket-propelled wooden stake aimed at the heart of modern public education and the State that it perpetuates.

Ladies and gentlemen, I now say something I never imagined I would have said two weeks ago:

John Sidney McCain is AWESOME and I hope he CRUSHES Obama in the general election.

[longeyes]

Vouchers ARE awesome.

But vouchers would allow free choice and free choice would conduce to unequal results, and THAT is what way too many people in America fear today.

[longeyes]

America is living on myths.

One is that everyone should go to college.  Absurd. 

We need to value non-academic training more.   We need to invest much more in vocational training, establish apprenticeship programs, honor and promote skilled "blue-collar" work.

We need more good plumbers, bricklayers, roofers, and truckdrivers, making decent money, than we need more people in marketing, advertising, and gender studies professorships.

[Marvin Dao]

I don't know if I just had a different public school experience than everyone else here, but I graduated in 2001 and mine was excellent. I left with a good grasp of the English language, calculus level math skills, a solid start in core sciences, and a basic C skills. The reading lists were heavy on the classics with minimal ethnic assignments. History was a bit weak though since every course I took seems to have cut off around WWII. The 40 hours of college credit I accrued wasn't too bad either... And this was from a middle of the road Texas school district.

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right, and be competent workers are killing society. People go to college more now not because they need the skills learned in college, it is because they learned NOTHING in high school. I've seen these kids around campus, they got all As in high school but can't follow a budget, perform simple repairs on automobiles, write a resume, find Iraq on a map, explain common economic theories (opportunity cost, supply and demand, benefits of trade, etc.), and other things. In other words they are helpless people that can do nothing but spout facts and feelings. They lack the ability to think critically. I personally blame equally the lack of parenting combined with the school systems.

Agree with wmenorr67. Most of what you've listed is a failure of the child's parents to properly instill a functional set of morals and skills in their child. The rest of it is a function of that. Schools can teach all they want, but they can't force students to learn. Thanks to the mandate to graduate everyone from high school though, schools still have to pass them. Yes, there are dysfunctional schools that provide a terrible experience. But the majority of the college going crowd did not go to these schools.

[MechAg94]

America is living on myths.

One is that everyone should go to college.  Absurd. 

We need to value non-academic training more.   We need to invest much more in vocational training, establish apprenticeship programs, honor and promote skilled "blue-collar" work.

We need more good plumbers, bricklayers, roofers, and truckdrivers, making decent money, than we need more people in marketing, advertising, and gender studies professorships.

The market is taking care of that to some extent.  A few of those professions are starting to make more money.  Good welders are not always easy to find. 

What I see more is a lack of quality in work like carpentry.  I ask around if anyone I know can think of a carpenter they would recommend.  No one has an answer.  My boss does all his work himself if he can find the time.  He figures he can screw up and paint over it just as well as the contractors. 

[roo_ster]

I am not on the "John McCain is awesome" bandwagon.  But, as MB writes, vouchers/choice/tax credits are one of those conservative/libertarian issues that would have a long-term effect not just on education, but on the country's culture.

[MicroBalrog]

There is a name and a place as to who originated vouchers, that being Milton/Rose Friedman.

At any rate, previously to this thread, I was willing to admit Obama is worse, but now I can happily also say that McCain is actively better than Obama.

[The Annoyed Man]

While this is a step in the right direction (tax credits = good idea), I don't think we'll see any noticeable differences in the way our education system operates until the people can once again influence things at a state and local level.

I live in Georgia; I don't know the educational situation in Washington state, but both WA and GA tax dollars go to D.C. to be fought over and squandered on failed programs; It just seems that things would operate much more smoothly without the Federal gov. dipping their fingers in things.

[Dntsycnt]

What's his voting record like in regards to said topic?

Kind of wary about taking a politician on his [election time] word...

[Sergeant Bob]

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right

That should be the job of the parents.

That's where it all starts, and that's where it all ends.

[RevDisk]

They might give it up if they realize what a terrible handicapper of our youth it has become. Kids that graduate high school and can't act right, dress right, talk right

That should be the job of the parents.

And the attitude of the kid, which is largely due to the parenting skills used.  Public education isn't that bad, outside of really problematic districts.  I graduated in 2000.  From what I noticed, kids got out of HS more or less what they wanted.  If they wanted to learn, plenty of teachers had no problems assisting.  Failing that, there was a huge library.  The overwhelming majority just did enough to get by.  Then there were kids that didn't want to learn, period.  Teachers really can't change those numbers too much.   There's a bit of room, but not that much.  The only thing that public schools should do but can't is toss out the kids that don't want to learn or move them to some specialized program.   They tend to be rather disruptive as a whole.

[roo_ster]

What's his voting record like in regards to said topic?

Kind of wary about taking a politician on his [election time] word...

You are not the only one.

The following source indicates he has been in support of school choice/vouchers since 1997:
http://www.ontheissues.org/john_mccain.htm

I think they guy means it.

[seeker_two]

What's his voting record like in regards to said topic?

Kind of wary about taking a politician on his [election time] word...

You are not the only one.

The following source indicates he has been in support of school choice/vouchers since 1997:
http://www.ontheissues.org/john_mccain.htm

I think they guy means it.

He's looking a little better to my eye, now.... 

[Sergeant Bob]

It's nice that he supports vouchers. However, there was little point to campaigning for them at the NAALCP, as the organization is not likely to support vouchers and sure won't be endorsing him. Even if he were to win, vouchers are not (as has been mentioned previously) the end all and be all of saving education, and it's highly unlikely it would even make it out of committee for a vote.

Sure makes him look Conservative though.

[wmenorr67]

I would think the NAACP would be a perfect group to target with school choice/vouchers.  They would have a large demographic that would want to try and get their children better educations if possible.  Not everyone stuck in the hood is there by choice, a lot of good people are stuck there because of the vicious circle of life.  Some have no chance to get out unless they can get a better education for their children.

[Sergeant Bob]

I would think the NAACP would be a perfect group to target with school choice/vouchers.  They would have a large demographic that would want to try and get their children better educations if possible.  Not everyone stuck in the hood is there by choice, a lot of good people are stuck there because of the vicious circle of life.  Some have no chance to get out unless they can get a better education for their children.

You would think so, wouldn't you? However, the organization is more interested in getting their favored candidate elected than actually advancing the lives of the people they "claim" to represent.