Court Rules Arizona Can Prosecute Sober People for Driving Under the Influence

[roo_ster]

Really, you can't make this stuff up. 

http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/23/court-rules-arizona-can-prosecute-sober

http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_22582743/ariz-court-ruling-upholds-dui-test-marijuana

An appeals court has issued a ruling that upholds the right of authorities to prosecute pot smokers in Arizona for driving under the influence even when there is no evidence that they are actually high.

The ruling by the Court of Appeals focuses on the chemical compounds in marijuana that show up in blood and urine tests after people smoke pot. One chemical compound causes drivers to be impaired; another is a chemical that stays in people's systems for weeks after they've smoked marijuana but doesn't affect impairment.

The court ruled that both compounds apply to Arizona law, meaning a driver doesn't have to actually be impaired to get prosecuted for DUI. As long as there is evidence of marijuana in their system, they can get a DUI, the court said.

Does he even have to be driving?  I mean, they already gutted the "U" and the "I" from "DUI," why should they not go all the way and charge people for being sober on their front porch or laying in bed? 

Looks to me like they just outlawed driving if any residue of any sort from any medication that could possibly cause impairment is still in one's system.  Also, what if they perform hair follicle testing?  The non-impairing drug residue is not even in the person's system at that point.  The actual use may be months or years in the past.

The ruling overturns a decision by a lower court judge who said it didn't make sense to prosecute a person with no evidence they're under the influence.

Silly lower court judges.  Of course it makes sense to someone.

The Court of Appeals said the Legislature adopted the decades-old comprehensive DUI law to protect public safety, so a provision on prohibited substances and their resulting chemical compounds should be interpreted broadly to include inactive compounds as well as active ones.

Need I point out that driving while sober has not traditionally been considered a public safety issue?  Yes, yes, that is an appeal to tradition and not valid among the cool kids, nowadays.  I am sure there is no way jettisoning appeals to tradition could possibly come back to bite one in the tuckus.


This seems to me just another example of what I call "The Five-Legged Cow Conceit."  If some folks band together and insist that bulls and cows are not fundamentally different and that a bull is just a five-legged cow, this is only conceit.  In reality, bulls and cows remain fundamentally different, no matter if silly people insist on playing word games.  Similarly, defining a non-impairing residue from an impairing substance as somehow indicating someone is now impaired, under the influence, or a public safety hazard is no more than conceit.

[Tallpine]

Sounds like persecution of anyone who is using or has used MJ.

[AZRedhawk44]

Here's the thing:

They can't just start giving every traffic stop an MJ residue test.  4A violation, no probable cause or articulable suspicion, etc.

So they need to see an articulable reason to initiate an MJ test.  Paraphernalia visible in the car, noticeable scent, etc.  Not sure if a leafy bumper sticker is grounds or not.  I think that's covered under 1A protection and not suspicion in and of itself, but may be a contributor to additional scrutiny.

Scent is the really tricky issue.  It (a pot smell, or even trickier... a no-pot-here smell) cannot be photographed or recorded and presented back in court later, so it's Ossifer Friendly's word against yours in regards to what anything smelled like.

Any cop can say he "smells pot" and start giving you a hellish traffic stop.


Also, the article states that licensed MJ users are not subject to this...

The ruling does not apply to the state’s 35,000 medical marijuana patients, who are permitted to drive with pot in their systems if they can pass a (flawed) test for impairment.

[RoadKingLarry]

Long time ago I was sitting on the tailgate of my pickup in the parking spot of my apartment watching the world go by when a car rear ended another car at a stop light. The driver of the offending car was pretty obviously very seriously impaired, he didn't appear to have been injured in the collision but the guy could barley stand up or even speak coherently. When the cops showed up I let them know I had been a witness and gave a brief statement.
The fun part was watching the filed sobriety test. I'm not sure I could have passed it stone cold sober. They may have been just jerking the guy around a little for fun but seriously, -say the alphabet backwards staring with R. Stand on your left leg and hop backwards 3 hops are the 2 that I remember.

[MicroBalrog]

So, any of you own a coffee can?

[erictank]

Long time ago I was sitting on the tailgate of my pickup in the parking spot of my apartment watching the world go by when a car rear ended another car at a stop light. The driver of the offending car was pretty obviously very seriously impaired, he didn't appear to have been injured in the collision but the guy could barley stand up or even speak coherently. When the cops showed up I let them know I had been a witness and gave a brief statement.
The fun part was watching the filed sobriety test. I'm not sure I could have passed it stone cold sober. They may have been just jerking the guy around a little for fun but seriously, -say the alphabet backwards staring with R. Stand on your left leg and hop backwards 3 hops are the 2 that I remember.

Could probably do the backwards hopping, though my balance is not as great as it used to be when I was a kid - but the alphabet backwards from R? Not a chance in hell, even sober. I sing the song in my head to this day, to determine letter placement. It'd probably take me an hour to get from R to A. Sober. Not a good sobriety check for me.

[Tallpine]

say the alphabet backwards staring with R

RAWKCAB TEBAHPLA EHT   

[AZRedhawk44]

RAWKCAB TEBAHPLA EHT   

!ngathf lgan'hagw heyl'R uhluhtC hfan'wlgm iulgn'hP

[cordex]

Not a chance in hell, even sober.

If you're ever pulled over and a cop starts with the SFSTs, never respond with this statement.  In the report, the cop will say something like: "Mr. Erictank admitted to me that he was intoxicated and that he couldn't perform the Standardized Field Sobriety tests."  They interpret such a statement as "I could not do that test if I were sober, which I am not now."

[BlueStarLizzard]

If you're ever pulled over and a cop starts with the SFSTs, never respond with this statement.  In the report, the cop will say something like: "Mr. Erictank admitted to me that he was intoxicated and that he couldn't perform the Standardized Field Sobriety tests."  They interpret such a statement as "I could not do that test if I were sober, which I am not now."

Well, so then what happens to people who just can't do that stuff sober?

Cause that alphebet thing pretty much screws me too. =/

[cordex]

Well, so then what happens to people who just can't do that stuff sober?

Cause that alphebet thing pretty much screws me too. =/

What I meant was not to say "I can't even do that sober," as it will be re-interpreted as an admission of guilt.

Check your state laws.  In my state you can decline the stupid human tricks and they'll put you on a certified breath (not the roadside PBT) or blood test.

[zahc]

I saw this one coming as soon as I heard about Colorado and other states legalizing MJ. The problem is how to test for MJ presence in order to determine if a driver is impaired. Nearly opposite of alcohol, it's difficult to find a proxy for short-term impairment and easy to find a proxy to show long-term use.

The real question, to me, is if we actually need formal laws banning 'driving while high' at all. I think the burden is on the state to show that MJ use actually increases accidents. Unlike alcohol, MJ is not known for creating reckless behavior the way alcohol does. I would propose (gasp) leaving it regular ol' legal for a while and see if a problem actually develops. But I would bet on that NOT happening, because it doesn't increase the power of the police and governments.

[zxcvbob]

Well, so then what happens to people who just can't do that stuff sober?
Cause that alphebet thing pretty much screws me too. =/

http://youtu.be/Wz8dsvm0GFo  <-- Gotta post this one again after that

[MillCreek]

I find it very reassuring that so many other people still need to sing the alphabet song in their heads.

[geronimotwo]

^^^a crutch by any other name......

[zahc]

I was trying to teach myself myself the Nato spelling alphabet a couple weeks ago. I was trying to practice by reciting the alphabet, but I can't actually recite the alphabet without singing the song.

Alpha Brave Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India Juliette Kilo Lima November Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo Sierra Tango Uniform Victor Whiskey Xray Yankee Zulu

I still had to sing the song to get the order right. That spelling alphabet is really stupid by the way. I think a grade schooler could come up with a better one. Lima?

[mtnbkr]

Unlike alcohol, MJ is not known for creating reckless behavior the way alcohol does. I would propose (gasp) leaving it regular ol' legal for a while and see if a problem actually develops.

It might not cause reckless behavior, but a person is certainly impaired while high.  Smoke enough and you cannot drive safely. 

Chris

[zahc]

I agree, but the same applies to many other prescription drugs that are not specifically addressed by 'under the influence' laws. Driving and smoking tobacco is obviously legal, and nobody seems to worry about that. Obviously there is a continuum here. Driving tired can cause just as much impairment as driving drunk. At the end of the day, people need to be responsible for their behavior. I don't see a reason why MJ should be specifically addressed, just because it was illegal yesterday.

Suppose that someone is naive enough to think that since MJ was previously illegal, nobody ever drove while high. Thus, we don't know what MJ's impact on driving impairment is. So, does that mean we should make it specifically illegal just to be safe, or should be make it legal, just to be on the side of liberty?

Besides, people drive while high all the time now. I don't think the number of people smoking and driving is going to go up. If anything, it might go down, because a lot of teenagers seem to smoke in their cars.

[AZRedhawk44]

I was trying to teach myself myself the Nato spelling alphabet a couple weeks ago. I was trying to practice by reciting the alphabet, but I can't actually recite the alphabet without singing the song.

Alpha Brave Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India Juliette Kilo Lima November Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo Sierra Tango Uniform Victor Whiskey Xray Yankee Zulu

I still had to sing the song to get the order right. That spelling alphabet is really stupid by the way. I think a grade schooler could come up with a better one. Lima?

Obviously drunk.  Forgot Mike.

[Boomhauer]

I was trying to teach myself myself the Nato spelling alphabet a couple weeks ago. I was trying to practice by reciting the alphabet, but I can't actually recite the alphabet without singing the song.

Alpha Brave Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India Juliette Kilo Lima November Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo Sierra Tango Uniform Victor Whiskey Xray Yankee Zulu

I still had to sing the song to get the order right. That spelling alphabet is really stupid by the way. I think a grade schooler could come up with a better one. Lima?

The words were chosen for pronunciation characteristics

[BlueStarLizzard]

I find it very reassuring that so many other people still need to sing the alphabet song in their heads.

 I can even sing up to J in Turkish. Oh, yeah. 

[makattak]

I can even sing up to J in Turkish. Oh, yeah. 

I made an Alphabet song for Hebrew. I don't know what Israeli children learn.

[zahc]

The words were chosen for pronunciation characteristics

That's what i would have thought, but they still seem like really random choices. If i did it, all of them would be at least 2 syllables, for one.

[RoadKingLarry]

The words were chosen for pronunciation characteristics

Conn, RADAR- Romeo three five, Range 6 5  hundred yards bearing 3 1 7, constant bearing decreasing range.

[Gewehr98]

It's Alpha, BRAVO, Charlie...

We had to recite it before we were allowed to transmit on UHF, VHF, and HF radios.

One of my fellow recce crewdawgs made his own version, using women's names.

Alice, Betty, Cynthia...