The Vela incident

[MillCreek]

This is from a recent New York Times review of two books about atomic proliferation.  I was interested to see this in the review:

Israel, in turn, shared its atomic secrets with South Africa. The book discloses that the two states exchanged some key ingredients for the making of atom bombs: tritium to South Africa, uranium to Israel. And the authors agree with military experts who hold that Israel and South Africa in 1979 jointly detonated a nuclear device in the South Atlantic near Prince Edward Island, more than one thousand miles south of Cape Town. Israel needed the test, it says, to develop a neutron bomb.

The Vela Incident, http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=922 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident and http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica/Vela.html has been debated for years in the intelligence community.  Was it indeed a nuclear weapons test in the remote South Atlantic, or was it a malfunction of a satellite designed to detect nuclear detonations? 

It will be interesting to see how further information on this develops over time.

[Harold Tuttle]

There is no doubt Israel has the power to unleash Armageddon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/12/israel1

Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours.

[Jocassee]

Knowing what I know about how the ancien regime worked in S. Africa, I think it is highly likely that they did such a test. It is a fact that they built such weapons, therefore it is fairly safe to assume that they tested them.

[buzz_knox]

If there was a test, I'm amazed Carter hasn't declared that to the world by now in one of his rants by now.

[Manedwolf]

There is no doubt Israel has the power to unleash Armageddon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/12/israel1

Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours.

Armageddon? No.

Making some Iranian cities into glass if Iran attacks them, sure.

What would that do do? Make the extremists enraged? Life itself makes them enraged.

[buzz_knox]

Armageddon? No.

Making some Iranian cities into glass if Iran attacks them, sure.

What would that do do? Make the extremists enraged? Life itself makes them enraged.

The overall effect depends on which cities get taken out.  Israel has approximately 200, so the major population centers of the Middle East could cease to exist and Israel would still retain a few spares for emergencies.  Those population centers are a principal source of supplies and funds for the terrorists, as well as training centers, etc.  Taking those out would not elminate funds from European and American sources, but it would slow or eliminate the ability to get said funds into Israel and the Palestinian terrorities.  There would still be the nut jobs from Gaza and other areas and hordes from the damaged nations, but these would be undersupplied, ill organized and led, and acting out of rage rather than the planned operations Israel has seen of late.  That situation pretty much describes the situation in every conflict in which Israel has been successful.

[MicroBalrog]

You are again looking at the map too much. Israel has far less than 200 cities.

[slugcatcher]

You are again looking at the map too much. Israel has far less than 200 cities.

And they're really not that far apart.

[BrokenPaw]

You are again looking at the map too much. Israel has far less than 200 cities.

I think buzz is saying that Israel has about 200 nukes (not cities), which can be used to destroy the major population centers of everywhere else in the Middle East, with a few nukes left over to spare.

-BP

[buzz_knox]

I think buzz is saying that Israel has about 200 nukes (not cities), which can be used to destroy the major population centers of everywhere else in the Middle East, with a few nukes left over to spare.

-BP

That would be correct.  My typing and thought process didn't match up.

[HankB]

I don't believe Israeli nuke strikes - even multiple strikes against several countries - would unleash Armageddon, as I don't see any other member of the nuclear club willing to employ its own nukes against Israel and the rest of the West in retaliation.

I doubt that even Pakistan would, absent a strike on their own soil.

They just don't like Israel's likely targets that much.

[Gewehr98]

We called it Alert 747, and flew a buttload of sorties against it in the hopes of getting a sample or three.

Our bhangmeters saw the double flash, and that was about it. 

Maybe the History Channel will set us straight some day, like they have with the Tunguska Event.   

[MicroBalrog]

I think buzz is saying that Israel has about 200 nukes (not cities), which can be used to destroy the major population centers of everywhere else in the Middle East, with a few nukes left over to spare.

-BP

From what I hear this includes SADM-type devices, nuclear landmines (which Ma'ariv leaked stuff about), and other such devices. I'm not sure we can actually take down 200 cities.

[Viking]

From what I hear this includes SADM-type devices, nuclear landmines (which Ma'ariv leaked stuff about), and other such devices. I'm not sure we can actually take down 200 cities.

Just load them onto a HUGE catapult .

[roo_ster]

From what I hear this includes SADM-type devices, nuclear landmines (which Ma'ariv leaked stuff about), and other such devices. I'm not sure we can actually take down 200 cities.

Nuke landmines are almost as cool as nuke air-to-air missiles:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/r-2.html

Or nuke surface-to-air missiles:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-14.html

[buzz_knox]

From what I hear this includes SADM-type devices, nuclear landmines (which Ma'ariv leaked stuff about), and other such devices. I'm not sure we can actually take down 200 cities.

They don't have to.  How many cities in the Arab world are worth a nuke?

[buzz_knox]

Nuke landmines are almost as cool as nuke air-to-air missiles:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/r-2.html

Or nuke surface-to-air missiles:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-14.html

The Russians are the master of the nuke AAM and SAM.  According to some who got out after the Soviet Union fell, many of their SAM systems have nuke (and thus ABM) capability, if they are not actually deployed with the warheads.

[Perd Hapley]

Maybe the History Channel will set us straight some day, like they have with the Tunguska Event.   

Do tell. 

[Gewehr98]

Ever watch the History Channel late at night, Fistful?

They show programs delving into unsolved mysteries like Tunguska, where a conglomeration of "experts" theorize anything from a black hole passing through the Earth, to an asteroid impact, to anti-matter colliding with the Earth, etc. Then the show ends without anything being described as "definitive".

There was a BBC program a decade or so ago that focused on Alert 747/Vela Incident.  I have a grainy copy of it on VHS somewhere.  It ends with the narrator asking, "Was it a nuclear detonation or not?  We don't know..."    Duh.

[Regolith]

...to an asteroid impact...

Urm...that's kind of what it was.  More specifically, it was probably a very large meteoroid or comet fragment which exploded before impacting. 

The rest of that is just crazy talk, though.

[French G.]

Maybe the History Channel will set us straight some day, like they have with the Tunguska Event.   grin

So you're saying the Nazis caused that flash? 

[Perd Hapley]

Ever watch the History Channel late at night, Fistful?

No tengo televisor.  But that sounds like what I expect from them.  On another forum, a guy was trying to say that Christmas trees were pagan, and as a good Christian, he did not use them.  An article was linked, describing the Xmas tree's Christian origins.  Due to a lack of citations, footnotes, etc., he dismissed it as an "opinion piece."  His own source?  A History Channel article, without citations.  :D  Yeah, cause The History Channel wouldn't have any interest in telling lurid stories about how Christmas is really pagan.   :rolleyes:

[Viking]

No tengo televisor. 

Same here. I do miss Discovery Channel. Not much else though.

[Tallpine]

Christmas is really pagan

Yep, but we're willing to share our holiday with you bible folks. 

Blessed be! 

[Perd Hapley]

Hey, thanks!  I was kinda hopin' you wouldn't mind if we Christians celebrated your pagan Christ Mass.  We might as well get the annual Christmas/Easter izitpagan thread started.