Sheiks on a plane...

[wingnutx]

Remember those 6 Imams that got booted off for praying loudly?

Seems they were doing more than that.

Passengers and flight attendants told law-enforcement officials the imams switched from their assigned seats to a pattern associated with the September 11 terrorist attacks and also found in probes of U.S. security since the attacks -- two in the front row first-class, two in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle and two in the rear of the cabin.

    "That would alarm me," said a federal air marshal who asked to remain anonymous. "They now control all of the entry and exit routes to the plane."

...

Three of the men asked for seat-belt extenders, although two flight attendants told police the men were not oversized. One flight attendant told police she "found this unsettling, as crew knew about the six [passengers] on board and where they were sitting." Rather than attach the extensions, the men placed the straps and buckles on the cabin floor, the flight attendant said.

...

The imams who claimed two first-class seats said their tickets were upgraded. The gate agent told police that when the imams asked to be upgraded, they were told no such seats were available. Nevertheless, the two men were seated in first class when removed.

    A flight attendant said one of the men made two trips to the rear of the plane to talk to the imam during boarding, and again when the flight was delayed because of their behavior. Aviation officials, including air marshals and pilots, said these actions alone would not warrant a second look, but the combination is suspicious.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061128-122902-7522r_page2.htm

[Eleven Mike]

I still find that a group of Islamic men praying in the terminal just prior to a flight is sufficient grounds for suspicion.  If we Christians were blowing up abortion clinics as frequently as Islamic terrorists blow up planes, we'd probably get the same reaction for praying in front of a clinic.

What violent purpose could the straps be used for?  How long are they? 

[wingnutx]

A heavy belt-buckle make a hell of a good weapon.

Kind of like a cue-ball in a sock.

By strange coincidence, I always carry a new pair of tube-socks with me when I fly.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Does anyone know if these 6 imams still in custody?

[HankB]

By some accounts, their actions were consistent with a "probing" of security, to see what can be gotten away with.

Now that they were dealt with, they can agitate for what amounts to a loosening of security . . . because at some point it may not just be a probe.

[The Rabbi]

I still find that a group of Islamic men praying in the terminal just prior to a flight is sufficient grounds for suspicion.  If we Christians were blowing up abortion clinics as frequently as Islamic terrorists blow up planes, we'd probably get the same reaction for praying in front of a clinic.

What violent purpose could the straps be used for?  How long are they? 

I'm sensitive to this as I have had friends hassled in the terminal for praying with talis and tefillin.
Muslims (like Jews) have set times for certain prayers.  If they find themselves in the airport terminal during that time then they're going to do their thing.
I am not disagreeing with the airlines' actions. I wasn't there and dont know enough about it.

[wingnutx]

I don't believe they are in custody, since they had some sort of pray-in at the airport.

[Northwoods]

They are not in custody anymore.  They were on their way to Phoenix (I live in Mesa, essentially a suburb of Phoenix) and after they were released they flew here, though on a different airline.  There was a bit of a to-do after they got here as reported in the local bird cage liner.

[roo_ster]

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the sum of their actions were deliberate and aimed at creating just such an incident.

WHy?  To raise a stink, toss around the word, "racist," and make it harder in the future to act in a timely manner against threats to/on airliners.

[280plus]

In other words to play us like fiddles...

[wingnutx]

They were definitely trolling.

[Perd Hapley]

I still find that a group of Islamic men praying in the terminal just prior to a flight is sufficient grounds for suspicion.  If we Christians were blowing up abortion clinics as frequently as Islamic terrorists blow up planes, we'd probably get the same reaction for praying in front of a clinic.

I'm sensitive to this as I have had friends hassled in the terminal for praying with talis and tefillin.
Muslims (like Jews) have set times for certain prayers.  If they find themselves in the airport terminal during that time then they're going to do their thing.

Here we have three types of religious discrimination; let's see if they're warranted. 

In the case of the observant Jews, it wouldn't appear to be.  If their unusual dress or behavior made them seem like Muslims, then law enforcement needs to be better educated about the profile they should be worried about.  Of course, I don't have any details about these incidents, so I could be wrong.

In the case of the infamous imams, I believe it was warranted.  They were publicly, explicitly praying to the god of Islam just prior to boarding an airplane - this just a few years after Muslim militants committed 9/11.  If they had done nothing else, that would have been enough to question the men before they boarded.  Their religion required them to pray out loud at that particular time?  Their religion is also connected to terrorism, around the world.  The majority that fears them is not at fault.  Al-Qaeda is to blame.  I admire people who have enough honest religious devotion to endure ridicule or misunderstanding, but they shouldn't blame us for the due fear and caution engendered by militants of their own religion.

I have myself protested and prayed in front of an abortion clinic, and the Cheif of Police was there in person to enforce tiny laws that he probably made up on the spot.  (We were told our large, heavy signs couldn't touch the sidewalk OR the grass.  Our arms got a little tired that day.)  Now if Christianity or anti-abortion sentiment had the same correlation with violence that Islam does with terror, the police would have been justified in taking actual security precautions of some kind.  But I doubt any such correlation could be shown.  Anti-abortion violence is rare and limited, both in death toll and in scope.  And world-wide Christianity has much less connection to it than world-wide Islam does with terror. 

[The Rabbi]

[quote author=El Silencio link=topic=5116.msg77852#msg77852

I have myself protested and prayed in front of an abortion clinic, and the Cheif of Police was there in person to enforce tiny laws that he probably made up on the spot.  (We were told our large, heavy signs couldn't touch the sidewalk OR the grass.  Our arms got a little tired that day.)  Now if Christianity or anti-abortion sentiment had the same correlation with violence that Islam does with terror, the police would have been justified in taking actual security precautions of some kind.  But I doubt any such correlation could be shown.  Anti-abortion violence is rare and limited, both in death toll and in scope.  And world-wide Christianity has much less connection to it than world-wide Islam does with terror. 
[/quote]

I guess those news stories about abortion clinics getting bombed by fundamentalist Christians were all wrong.
Now I am not equating you with bombers.  But I would not equate praying Moslems with bombers either.  In that particular case there were plenty of other circumstances that looked suspicious.  But merely praying before a flight doesn't cut it.

[Perd Hapley]

I didn't say it doesn't happen.  I said it is not as prominent or as important as Islamic terrorism.  It's not as dangerous.  If the jihadis only targeted one particular, small group of people, and that very infrequently, we'd pay very little attention to them. 

[The Rabbi]

Its important if you're the one who got blown up.
But I see your point. There are plenty of Basques who travel all the time and no one says anything.
But I still maintain that merely praying in a terminal is not grounds for suspicion.

[wingnutx]

But I still maintain that merely praying in a terminal is not grounds for suspicion.

That's far from their only action.

[Ron]

I guess those news stories about abortion clinics getting bombed by fundamentalist Christians were all wrong.

99% media hype to scare folks and associate pro life folks with lunatics.

If there were more than three bombings in the last decade I would be surprised.

From the involvement of CAIR and the speed with which that they had statements ready this appears to be a setup.

[Vodka7]

If there were more than three bombings in the last decade I would be surprised.

The most conservative data I could find reports nine documented bombings since 1997, a wave of nineteen acid attacks in 1998, thirty-two cases of arson, twenty-two attempted bombings or cases of arson, two murders, one kidnapping, scores of assaults and death threats, and hundreds of instances of vandalism.

http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/violence_statistics.pdf

Now, I'm not saying clinic bombings are in anyway comparable to Muslim terrorism, so please don't drag me into that discussion.  The loss of life is nowhere near comparable.  I'm just saying that anti-abortionist violence is not a problem that has gone away (although it has decreased significantly since 2000.)

[The Rabbi]

But I still maintain that merely praying in a terminal is not grounds for suspicion.

That's far from their only action.

No argument on that point.

[Perd Hapley]

Vodka, I don't know where you're going to find more accurate figures, but most of that information comes directly from the National Abortion Federation, which is most certainly a biased source.  They include a few numbers that they claim come from law enforcement records, but most have no other backing than NAF and its members - that is, abortion providers. 

But do note that they claim seven people killed over this issue in the past three decades.  Also note that over two hundred bombings/arsons are reported.  Apparently, anti-abortion militants prefer to wait until the clinic is empty, those brutes.  Or, the numbers are inflated.  Also note that picketing is listed right under bomb threats.     Also note that burglary, vandalism and trespassing are likely to have no political motive at all. 

[meinbruder]

A heavy belt-buckle make a hell of a good weapon.

Kind of like a cue-ball in a sock.

By strange coincidence, I always carry a new pair of tube-socks with me when I fly.

Don't forget to put a roll of quarters in your carry on bag.  If anyone asks, they're for laundry.  Something tells me you read H. Beam Piper as a kid.

I have a belt my sister gave me for Christmas many moons ago.  A simple leather belt with a brass buckle that just snaps off and on, I can remove the buckle and leave the leather belt in place.  The belt will wrap around my knuckles a couple of times and makes a very solid anchor for an improvised morning-star.  The extra padding and support makes the knuckles a little more intimidating in close quarters. 

Let's see now, sharpened edge of a credit card, or box cutter, vs morning star.
Do the math. 
}:)>

[gunsmith]

the seat belts also make great restraints.

Oh btw, great title for the thread..."Sheiks on a plane"...LOL

[wingnutx]

Something tells me you read H. Beam Piper as a kid.

Nope, somehow I missed that one. I started on scifi as soon as I could read, though.

My dad told me how jarheads would keep one edge of thier belt buckle sharpened as an improvised weapon, and an old squid told me about sewing a roll of pennies into the back of their rolled-up neckerchief for the same reason.

[Ron]

Oh btw, great title for the thread..."Sheiks on a plane"...LOL

"enough is enough! I have had it with these bleeeeeep Shieks on this bleeeeeep plane!"

[Phyphor]

I still find that a group of Islamic men praying in the terminal just prior to a flight is sufficient grounds for suspicion.  If we Christians were blowing up abortion clinics as frequently as Islamic terrorists blow up planes, we'd probably get the same reaction for praying in front of a clinic.

What violent purpose could the straps be used for?  How long are they? 

Field expedient garrote?