Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on February 16, 2020, 08:00:56 AM
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I'm guessing there is more to this story regarding the specific two individuals involved, but it brings up an interesting topic: If neither of them were jerks, who was in the right?
To me, it's simple: At 6'3", I HATE HATE HATE when someone reclines their seat in coach, especially during meal service. However, while I get irritated with them, I can't blame them, because hey, they're reclining seats. I think this issue has grown because spacing has gotten smaller and smaller, and my opinion at this point is that airlines either need to lock the seats coach seats in the upright position, or else reduce the recline to no more than like an inch. This is never an issue (for me) in first class, where the person in front of me can keep their seat fully reclined and it doesn't bother me at all.
Also, while the flight attendant shouldn't be fired, I'm not sure that apologizing to the seat puncher was the smart move.
https://www.foxnews.com/travel/american-airlines-passenger-press-charges-attendant-fired
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While it's certainly rude and annoying and should be stopped by the airline reps on the airplane, I have a hard time agreeing that punching the back of an airline seat rises to the level of criminal assault.
That one thing leads me to really question the veracity Ms. William's tale of the rest of the events.
*ETA: I also agree that if the seat pitch is going to be reduced to the point it is on current US Flag airlines, seat recline mechanisms should be modified. But that is probably not a trivial undertaking. I assume that airline seats carry some sort of FAA certification for flight and crash safety, and modifying them would require testing and approval of a new design, plus the install cost of whatever modification multiplied by a large number of seats in the fleet. Much cheaper to just reconfigure the cabin to the next slot on the seat track.
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Much cheaper to just reconfigure the cabin to the next slot on the seat track.
I agree with that, and it of course has the better comfort benefits. It will just cost people more to fly with fewer seats, and I can kinda sympathize with the airlines in that regard. People want first class seating to Hawaii for $200RT. Personally, I'll pay a little more for a few more inches of space. Actually a lot more, as I've pretty much stopped flying coach unless there's no other choice - that's how much avoiding sardine can seating is worth to me.
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It has been a while since I flew, but on that video clip, it didn't look like she had the seat reclined that much. He has the tray open so there is enough room for that. He kind of looks like he is throwing a tantrum. Of course, there is probably more to the story. It is odd that the the stewardess would threaten her.
He was already against the back wall where the seats don't reline much. Makes me wonder if he was already uncomfortable with a bad attitude from the start.
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I think both of them acted like jerks. I fly a lot but rarely recline my seat because the small amount of recline doesn’t provide much increase in comfort but is annoying for the person behind. It must be a little-known law of physics — 3 inches of recline for the person in front uses up a foot of room for the person in back.
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He was being an ass, I am fairly confident saying the only reason he did that was because it was a woman in the seat in front of him. Had it been a male I really doubt it would have happened. Both of them should not be allowed to fly for 5 years.
bob
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I think both of them acted like jerks. I fly a lot but rarely recline my seat because the small amount of recline doesn’t provide much increase in comfort but is annoying for the person behind. It must be a little-known law of physics — 3 inches of recline for the person in front uses up a foot of room for the person in back.
Rereading my OP, I may not have been clear in that I think it's likely they were both jerks, but I was gathering opinions on if they hadn't been jerks, or if it was two random other people, do people have the right to recline all the way in coach regardless of how the person behind them feels?
Again, I absolutely hate it when it happens to me, and I rarely do it and not to the full extent of the seat, but if someone paid for reclining seats, I feel I have to suck it up. Which is why I think they should be eliminated in coach, or as Dogmush said, there needs to be better spaced seating with fewer seats.
I also agree regarding your physics statement - it never feels like I get any recline, but when the person in front of me does it, I think they must have a barcolounger seat or something. :laugh:
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Reclining seat lady was in the right. The guy was a jerk.
I don't recline my seat because it doesn't make a difference to me and the guy behind me doesn't have much room to start with.
By regulation, exit row seats don't recline, so sit behind those if you want to avoid the Recline War. Or sit in the exit row for extra leg room.
Dogmush, we can easily disable the seat recline. Takes 30 seconds for each seat.
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I estimate that 90% of leisure travelers buy their tickets based on price alone. Whatever is cheapest, they take it.
Also, I estimate 90% of business travelers don't get a choice, so they buy their tickets based on perks/miles.
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When aholes collide ...
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I agree with that, and it of course has the better comfort benefits. It will just cost people more to fly with fewer seats, and I can kinda sympathize with the airlines in that regard. People want first class seating to Hawaii for $200RT.
I disagree. I don't think anyone expects first class seating, or anything approaching that, for coach prices. But the airlines have now reduced seat pitch to the point where even normal-height males (and taller females) are cramped and crowded. In fact, the seating has gotten so tight that there are many calls for the FAA to study evacuation times. Would it cost the airlines money to increase seat pitch an inch or so? Yes, it would. So the price goes up enough to cover it. If the FAA mandated this, all airlines would have to do it so the playing field would remain even.
Let's look at a Delta 737-800. According to Delta's web site, they are configured with 16 first class seats that have a width of 20.5" and a pitch of 36" to 38". (Arranged 2 - 2.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/737-800
They have what they call "Delta Comfort" seating, which is a separate section of the cabin that appears to be less than Business class but better than coach; basically what coach used to be several years ago. 36 seats, arranged in six rows 3 - 3, with a seat width of 17.2" and a pitch of 34".
And then they have Main Cabin (coach). 108 seats, eighteen rows 3 - 3, with a seat width of 17.2" and a pitch of 31" to 32". Main cabin includes the two wing exit rows, which are oversized, Going back from there, there are fifteen rows that have the standard pitch. I don't know why they list the coach pitch as 31"-32", but lets' use 31.5" for figgerin'. Fifteen rows at 31.5" is 472.5 inches. Now remove one row, which would sacrifice six seats. The resulting seat pitch would be 33.75" -- which is basically the same as the "Delta Comfort" seat pitch of 34".
What would it cost them? Probably impossible for anyone outside of Delta to calculate, because of the myriad of ticket prices based on the distance flown the cost of fees and fuel at the two airports involved, how far in advance the seat is booked, the day of the week, the season of the year, the phase of the moon, and who knows what else. Pick a number ... $300. 108 seats at $300 is $32,400. Take away six seats and we need to charge $317.65 per seat to break even.
BUT ... six fewer passengers means less weight in people, and less weight in baggage. I don't know what it actually costs in fuel to carry one "average" passenger with his/her "average" luggage, but it costs something. So that offsets to some extent the increased cost of eliminating one row to increase seat pitch.
I just don't think limiting or eliminating the recline feature from seats in the answer. In recent years, airline seats have not only been tightened up in pitch, they've also been made thinner and less comfortable. A flight of more than an hour in a non-reclining coach seat would be absolute torture. The answer is to increase the seat pitch.
It's pretty sad that traveling on a Greyhound bus today is more comfortable than traveling in Coach on any of Boeing's or Airbus' newest aircraft.
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Reclining seat lady was in the right. The guy was a jerk.
Correct. The woman paid for a seat that reclines, she had a right to use the recliner feature without being harassed by the guy behind her. If he wanted or needed more legroom, he could and should have paid more for a seat with extra legroom. Almost all airlines offer them. Personally, I think they grossly overcharge for giving you a seat with what was normal legroom until a few years ago, but that's a separate argument. He got what he paid for -- suck it up, buttercup.
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I disagree. I don't think anyone expects first class seating, or anything approaching that, for coach prices. But the airlines have now reduced seat pitch to the point where even normal-height males (and taller females) are cramped and crowded. In fact, the seating has gotten so tight that there are many calls to the FAA to study evacuation times. Would it cost the airlines money to increase seat pitch an inch or so? Yes, it would. So the price goes up enough to cover it. If the FAA mandated this, all airlines would have to do it so the playing field would remain even.
Let's look at a Delta 737-800. According to Delta's web site, they are configured with 16 first class seats that have a width of 20.5" and a pitch of 36" to 38". (Arranged 2 - 2.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/737-800
They have what they call "Delta Comfort" seating, which is a separate section of the cabin that appears to be less than Business class but better than coach; basically what coach used to be several years ago. 36 seats, arranged in six rows 3 - 3, with a seat width of 17.2" and a pitch of 34".
And then they have Main Cabin (coach). 108 seats, eighteen rows 3 - 3, with a seat width of 17.2" and a pitch of 31" to 32". Main cabin includes the two wing exit rows, which are oversized, Going back from there, there are fifteen rows that have the standard pitch. I don't know why they list the coach pitch as 31"-32", but lets' use 31.5" for figgerin'. Fifteen rows at 31.5" is 472.5 inches. Now remove one row, which would sacrifice six seats. The resulting seat pitch would be 33.75" -- which is basically the same as the "Delta Comfort" seat pitch of 34".
What would it cost them? Probably impossible for anyone outside of Delta to calculate, because of the myriad of ticket prices based on the distance flown the cost of fees and fuel at the two airports involved, how far in advance the seat is booked, the day of the week, the season of the year, the phase of the moon, and who knows what else. Pick a number ... $300. 108 seats at $300 is $32,400. Take away six seats and we need to charge $317.65 per seat to break even.
BUT ... six fewer passengers means less weight in people, and less weight in baggage. I don't know what it actually costs in fuel to carry one "average" passenger with his/her "average" luggage, but it costs something. So that comes offsets to some extent the increased cost of eliminating one row to increase seat pitch.
I just don't think limiting or eliminating the recline feature from seats in the answer. In recent years, airline seats have not only been tightened up in pitch, they've also been made thinner and less comfortable. A flight of more than an hour in a non-reclining coach seat would be absolute torture. The answer is to increase the seat pitch.
It's pretty sad that traveling on a Greyhound bus today is more comfortable than traveling in Coach on any of Boeing's or Airbus' newest aircraft.
You are absolutely correct, and it will never happen without government mandates.
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https://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html
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Delta Airlines CEO weighs in. Says "Ask if it's okay first."
https://www.foxnews.com/travel/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-seat-recline-etiquette
Here's a novel idea, Mr. CEO... configure the damn seats in both size and location so normal people can fly in relative comfort whether the fracking seatback is reclined or not.
Brad
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Looks like that guy was suffering from some sort of soy induced estrogen rage. Pushing on the back of the seat was probably the least passive-aggressive thing he's done in years.
I'm 6'4, with really long femurs... for the little flying I do, having the seat in front of me recline isn't something I can get upset over.
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Delta Airlines CEO weighs in. Says "Ask if it's okay first."
https://www.foxnews.com/travel/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-seat-recline-etiquette
Here's a novel idea, Mr. CEO... configure the damn seats in both size and location so normal people can fly in relative comfort whether the fracking seatback is reclined or not.
Brad
Here's a novel idea, Mr. Johnson... don't fly in the cheap seats if seat pitch is that important to you. Do your homework (try seatguru.com) before you buy tickets.
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Here's a novel idea, Mr. Johnson... don't fly in the cheap seats if seat pitch is that important to you. Do your homework (try seatguru.com) before you buy tickets.
I know airlines are a business and they're trying to fit as many people as possible, but charging people a significant amount of money and then expecting them to somehow magically fit into seats 20% too small for the average traveler is patently ignorant. At some point customer service (in this case, comfort) must play a role. When my wife, who is 5'9" and very slightly built, has to scrunch up in order to fit into the seat and her knees are physically touching the seat in front of her, the seats are too damn small and the spacing too damn tight. I know my shoulders are too wide to fit in any airline seat, much less comfortably. Flying aisle seats and having to lean over so the guy next to me has a modicum of room is just the way it is. But if I have to "do my homework" in order to find a seat that fits her, then seatguru.com, Mr. Delta CEO, and airlines in general can bite me.
Brad
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Here's a novel idea, Mr. Johnson... don't fly in the cheap seats if seat pitch is that important to you. Do your homework (try seatguru.com) before you buy tickets.
Does that airline do assigned seating?
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Does that airline do assigned seating?
I think Southwest is the only airline that doesn't.
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I know airlines are a business and they're trying to fit as many people as possible, but charging people a significant amount of money and then expecting them to somehow magically fit into seats 20% too small for the average traveler is patently ignorant. At some point customer service (in this case, comfort) must play a role. When my wife, who is 5'9" and very slightly built, has to scrunch up in order to fit into the seat and her knees are physically touching the seat in front of her, the seats are too damn small and the spacing too damn tight. I know my shoulders are too wide to fit in any airline seat, much less comfortably. Flying aisle seats and having to lean over so the guy next to me has a modicum of room is just the way it is. But if I have to "do my homework" in order to find a seat that fits her, then seatguru.com, Mr. Delta CEO, and airlines in general can bite me.
Brad
Not to pick on you specifically Brad, but I hear this a lot from folks that don't like flying (often from folks in the small seats) But in practice, customers almost unanimously choose small seats and no frills to save $30 on the fair. There's been a lot of studies by airlines and the travelocity/kayak type agents, and the race to the bottom that domestic airlines are finishing up is driven by the fact that folks buy on schedule and fare. Not comfort, or seat room, or meals, or any of the things folks complain about not having.
Like Ben I consciously pay more for at least premium coach when I fly, but almost everyone I talk to in that section is a pretty frequent flyer. The "once every year or two, or less" flyers overwhelmingly buy the cheapest ticket they can find, then dislike the flight.
You get what you pay for.
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I know airlines are a business and they're trying to fit as many people as possible, but charging people a significant amount of money and then expecting them to somehow magically fit into seats 20% too small for the average traveler is patently ignorant. At some point customer service (in this case, comfort) must play a role. When my wife, who is 5'9" and very slightly built, has to scrunch up in order to fit into the seat and her knees are physically touching the seat in front of her, the seats are too damn small and the spacing too damn tight. I know my shoulders are too wide to fit in any airline seat, much less comfortably. Flying aisle seats and having to lean over so the guy next to me has a modicum of room is just the way it is. But if I have to "do my homework" in order to find a seat that fits her, then seatguru.com, Mr. Delta CEO, and airlines in general can bite me.
Seatguru is of no help in many cases. Since it was Delta's preident who opened his pie hole, I checked Delta. The economy coach seats don't allow you to choose your seat ahead of check-in. Your seat is assigned to you arbitrarily when you check in, and that's that. If you want to choose what seat you're going to be in, you have to pay extra for a "preferred seating" ticket. Unless you luck out and get an exit row, preferred seating doesn't get you any extra legroom -- it just allows you to select which instrument of torture you will be subjected to.
I expect that American now operates the same way. The days are long gone when anyone could show up early and just request an exit or bulkhead row seat to get a bit more legroom.
The answer is to remove one row of seats and give everyone in coach an additional inch and a half (or so) of legroom.
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Not to pick on you specifically Brad, but I hear this a lot from folks that don't like flying (often from folks in the small seats) But in practice, customers almost unanimously choose small seats and no frills to save $30 on the fair. There's been a lot of studies by airlines and the travelocity/kayak type agents, and the race to the bottom that domestic airlines are finishing up is driven by the fact that folks buy on schedule and fare. Not comfort, or seat room, or meals, or any of the things folks complain about not having.
It's not saving $30 on the fare. It can be a LOT more. I'm looking at a possible trip from New York to Atlanta soon, so I called up the flight into I had been looking at on Travelocity. For the dates I had used (round trip), I started with Delta. Economy Coach ranged from $217 to $317, depending on what time of day the flights depart. To upgrade to Premium Coach (same days, same flights), the prices jump to $405 to (hold on!) $1,371! That's right -- over a grand, for Premium Coach. So, at best, the price for human-scale legroom runs roughly double what Economy costs.
Then I looked at American, and the results made no sense at all. Maybe they don't do Premium Economy, but Travelocity allowed me to search for it. Economy Coach (same dates as the Delta flights) ranged from $287 to $850. For Premium Coach the range was $232 to $293. (Yes, I double checked to be sure I didn't get them inverted -- I didn't.)
I haven't been on a flight to anywhere, domestic or international, in the last 15 or 20 years that had even one vacant seat. There's no shortage of people who want (or need) to fly. If removing one row of seats in coach to give everyone some semblance of adequate legroom and knee space raises the lowest price tickets by 5 percent, the industry will never even notice it. People will still fly.
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Delta has 4 tiers of tickets available for almost all of it's flights. The very cheapest doesn't let you pick a seat (which in practice means you get a middle seat) and doesn't let you grab any of the cheap upgrades on travel day. It also effectively puts you in a later boarding group so overhead space is likely very limited or gone.
The first step up lets you pick a seat (so you can actually get a window or aisle) You won't get an exit row or bulkhead, so there will be no extra room here. It does let you choose to upgrade day of travel if there are cheap upgrades available. It is, IME, about $30 more per ticket.
Mid tier is Delta Comfort+. This is where seats get bigger, exit rows are available, dedicated overhead space exists, and there's free beer. On my "normal" delta flight (Tampa to LA) this is about $80-$100 more than base "get me on an aircraft" economy.
So here's the thing: In theory, most folks say they want Comfort+. That's what Hawkmoon's "answer" of removing a seat gets you. But in practice, when offered that, folks won't pay for it. EVERY Delta flight I've been on in the last 4 years had some unsold Comfort+ seats that Main Cabin could upgrade into, and Basic Economy folks were crying about not being able to buy, even though it's pretty clear on the ticket that there are no upgrades.
Back when Comfort+ level cabins were the norm, folks started new airlines to sardine can folks in aircraft for $40-$100 less per ticket, and were packed. That's why Southwest, Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue and others exist today. Because no matter how much folks SAY they want more leg room and more comfort when given the option, they buy the cheapest available flight. That's the actual practice. Main Cabin and basic seats are packed full. Mid tier is almost always still available day of travel, and folks can be talked into upgrading. First class often isn't sold out. If Delta tried to sell every ticket at the ~$80 more Comfort+ costs, everyone would go to Southwest. That's what actually happened in 2006 when Southwest opened up nationwide service.
Curiosity question: How many folks here actually pay extra for the nicer seats when given the opportunity? Pretty much every domestic airline offers some version of Comfort+ as a tier between sardine can and first class. Who pays for it?
I agree that main cabin seating on domestic US airlines sucks now. It makes travel a chore if you are back there, but it's the result of pretty basic economic cause and effect. Basically Americans got the air travel they voted for.
ETA: Hawk and I cross posted. I tend to fly from Tampa to LAX as my most common, and that's where my price delta's come from. I'm not sure why he saw so much more price. I know that more stops tends to increase the cost of the upgrade. Also, I confess, I haven't even looked at the cost of a basic economy coach ticket in years, as I am not going to buy one. The delta may have increased.
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Curiosity question: How many folks here actually pay extra for the nicer seats when given the opportunity? Pretty much every domestic airline offers some version of Comfort+ as a tier between sardine can and first class. Who pays for it?
I cited actual prices, from an actual search I just ran. I would cheerfully pay $30 extra for Comfort+, even without the free beer. But I'm not willing (or able) to pay double the Economy Coach fare (or triple) just to get an extra inch or two of legroom.
ETA: Hawk and I cross posted. I tend to fly from Tampa to LAX as my most common, and that's where my price delta's come from. I'm not sure why he saw so much more price. I know that more stops tends to increase the cost of the upgrade. Also, I confess, I haven't even looked at the cost of a basic economy coach ticket in years, as I am not going to buy one. The delta may have increased.
The Delta flights I found were all non-stop. The American flights, for whatever reason, were all one stop.
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In reply #23, Dogmush explained my "people want first class" hyperbole statement much better than I did. They want the absolute cheapest airfare, literally often choosing to pay $25 less for a five hour flight when that $25 could get them five hours of more comfortable (or less uncomfortable) seating. Then they complain about the seats.
His Southwest comment was also spot on. Fly320s can better explain (or tell me I'm wrong), but I recall "cheap seats" on major airlines started because people were booking sardine can flights on the smaller airlines to save literally a few bucks. If the major airlines remove seats and charge more, infrequent flyers are not going to gladly pay 5% more - they are going to fight for seats on the no frills airlines, all over $20-$100.
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Fly320s can better explain (or tell me I'm wrong), but I recall "cheap seats" on major airlines started because people were booking sardine can flights on the smaller airlines to save literally a few bucks. If the major airlines remove seats and charge more, infrequent flyers are not going to gladly pay 5% more - they are going to fight for seats on the no frills airlines, all over $20-$100.
I just fly the plane. I don't pretend to understand how the business is run, prices are set, or how many seats should be installed.
But... from my experience, the cheap seats fill up first. When I first started at my airline 19 years ago, our A320s were configured with 162 coach-class seats. No first or business class. All coach at the same pitch. We filled those seats. Later, we took out a full row of seats to increase pitch, decrease the required number of flight attendants (from 4 to 3), and to save weight so we can do non-stop transcons. We also filled those seats. I have no idea how much money we made or lost because of those 6 fewer seats, but we are still in business so something worked right. More recently, we added that row back in, but we also changed the type of seats, and added pitch to some rows. We still make money, I assume, but I'm not sure if the extra row of seats is what keeps us afloat. We fly 320s and 321s with four different seating configurations, which allows 150 to 200 seats. Only one configuration has first/business-class seats. The business routes usually get the newer seats/interior with more legroom and the vacation routes usually get the high-density seating.
What does it all mean? All the airlines spend a huge amount of time and money to optimize their routes, prices, and seating. Every metric is tracked and analyzed. Which means that the people/routes who are willing to pay more have been identified and they get the better seats/plane. People/routes who want a cheap ticket to vacationland get fewer perks. It isn't a perfect delineation, but it works well enough from what I understand of it.
If you want max perks at minimum pricing, fly during off-peak times/months. Also join your airline's frequent flyer club or use points from your CC to upgrade your seat. Mid January to last week was a very slow time for travel. I think we averaged around 70% seat capacity. September through Early November is also a slow time for leisure travel. Some destinations that are popular for business travelers and tourists never really slow down. Orlando is always busy. Major business city to major business city is always busy. You'll pay more for travel flexibility than for locking your options into one flight.
Summary: airlines are a business and they are trying to maximize profits by minimizing costs and increasing revenues. Ticket costs are very low overall, even if you personally paid a high price for your ticket. The airlines are making a few cents/per passenger/flight overall, so more seats means more revenue. More seats generally means less legroom.
Here is a good explaination: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/travel-transport-and-logistics/our-insights/a-better-approach-to-airline-costs
This shows the Revenue per Availble Seat Mile (RASM) for US airlines. The highest is 16.5 cents for each seat flown one mile. Not profit, just revenue. https://www.statista.com/statistics/527810/us-airlines-domestic-revenue-per-asm/
Subtract the Cost per Available Seat Mile (CASM) and you get profit (more or less). The CASM for the above example was 7.5 cents. So, roughly 9 cents of profit per seat per mile.
There is a ton of data out there to track how well/poorly each airline makes a profit. You can track by aircraft type, city pairs, and time of year.
Right now, the airlines are making big profits in part because they have learned to maximize revenue and in part because the economy is doing well right now. If the Corvid virus panic reaches the US, you'll see those revenues fall like an anvil. I expect all of the US airlines that fly to Asia to take a big financial hit this quarter.
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Not to pick on you specifically Brad, but I hear this a lot from folks that don't like flying (often from folks in the small seats) But in practice, customers almost unanimously choose small seats and no frills to save $30 on the fair. There's been a lot of studies by airlines and the travelocity/kayak type agents, and the race to the bottom that domestic airlines are finishing up is driven by the fact that folks buy on schedule and fare. Not comfort, or seat room, or meals, or any of the things folks complain about not having.
Like Ben I consciously pay more for at least premium coach when I fly, but almost everyone I talk to in that section is a pretty frequent flyer. The "once every year or two, or less" flyers overwhelmingly buy the cheapest ticket they can find, then dislike the flight.
You get what you pay for.
Yeah, I know. And looking back at yesterday's post I snapped at 320 pretty hard when it wasn't really warranted. Apologies for that.
My beef is this... if you install seats that recline, then design the seating arrangement so that each seated passenger can reasonably take advantage of that feature. What's happening now is effectively a bait-and-switch.
Advertising: "All Our Seats Recline!"
Once on the plane: "Yes sir, all seats recline but you can't use the feature because you didn't pay extra."
An airline CEO lecturing passengers on reclining etiquette? No. The feature is included in the physical seat design, directly inferring the passenger's ability to take advantage of said feature. If those designing the layout don't incorporate this inference into design ethos then passengers have every right to be aggravated. Being lectured about it from the person ultimately in in charge of the entity responsible for the piss-poor seating layout just pours salt on the wound.
As 320 said, airlines track an insane number of metrics. They know the average size of passengers, probably to several decimal places. Their claims of designing to maximum comfort are laughable. If they were honest, they'd admit their goal is making the discomfort just tolerable enough that passengers are willing to suffer through it for the convenience.
Brad
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My beef is this... if you install seats that recline, then design the seating arrangement so that each seated passenger can reasonably take advantage of that feature. What's happening now is effective a bait-and-switch.
I don't disagree with that at all. Either design so that fully reclining doesn't adversely affect others, reduce the recline, or eliminate the recline. If I purchase a seat that reclines, but then according to the Delta CEO am only (because politeness?) allowed to use it if I get permission from the passenger behind me, that's just ridiculous.
It's like being at the "10 items or less" checkout with 10 items, but then having to ask the people behind you for permission to actually checkout with nine or ten items instead of one or two.
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Celebrating the typical APS tangent, my wife and I flew to Las Vegas this last weekend. We flew out of Paine Field in Everett on Alaska flying an Embraer e175 with 76 seats in a dual-class configuration. We both commented on how the seat pitch and spacing were among the most comfortable we have ever seen in a coach class seating. I am 5'10" and my knees did not touch the seat in front of me, and we had ample legroom. It was amazing.
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Celebrating the typical APS tangent, my wife and I flew to Las Vegas this last weekend. We flew out of Paine Field in Everett on Alaska flying an Embraer e175 with 76 seats in a dual-class configuration. We both commented on how the seat pitch and spacing were among the most comfortable we have ever seen in a coach class seating. I am 5'10" and my knees did not touch the seat in front of me, and we had ample legroom. It was amazing.
Continental runs Embraer 145s on their LBB-IAH run. I love them. The 145 has a single column of seats on the left side of the aisle. Leg room is at a premium but I have a window and I don't have to lean way out into the aisle to accommodate someone next to me. If I manage to score the seat right in front of the emergency exit row, I also don't have to worry about some idiot jacking around with the back of my seat the entire trip. Short of a significant upgrade in seating, it's the closest thing to comfortable I get on an airline.
Brad
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I don't disagree with that at all. Either design so that fully reclining doesn't adversely affect others, reduce the recline, or eliminate the recline. If I purchase a seat that reclines, but then according to the Delta CEO am only (because politeness?) allowed to use it if I get permission from the passenger behind me, that's just ridiculous.
It's like being at the "10 items or less" checkout with 10 items, but then having to ask the people behind you for permission to actually checkout with nine or ten items instead of one or two.
[tinfoil] Maybe the airlines make cheap travel as miserable as possible, from the fight over overhead compartments to getting packed in like sardines plus reclining seats just to push people towards a more premium experience next time. [tinfoil] If that's the case, they should offer a steep discount for big, fat, sweaty guys like myself, so long as I sit in a middle seat, extra discount if I don't shower 24 hrs before disembarking. >:D
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[tinfoil] Maybe the airlines make cheap travel as miserable as possible, from the fight over overhead compartments to getting packed in like sardines plus reclining seats just to push people towards a more premium experience next time. [tinfoil] If that's the case, they should offer a steep discount for big, fat, sweaty guys like myself, so long as I sit in a middle seat, extra discount if I don't shower 24 hrs before disembarking. >:D
Yes, and we will keep doing that until your morale improves. Now shut-up and eat your peanuts you paid $5 for. =D
FWIW, the new A320NEO that is coming out has redesigned overhead bins that fit more luggage. The bins are taller and deeper, so roll-aboards can fit standing on edge.
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Yeah, I know. And looking back at yesterday's post I snapped at 320 pretty hard when it wasn't really warranted. Apologies for that.
No harm, no foul. My apologies to you for being snarky.
I fly in the back of the plane often enough to know how bad the seats sucks, but since I am flying for work most of the time I don't get to complain.
As for designing the proper layout and seat pitch, the airlines are balancing average customer size with revenue. Anyone over 6 feet is enough above average that a regular coach seat is going to suck. That said, we Americans are getting larger in every way. My company is well aware of leg room, or lack of, and seat width and how it works with above average size people.