Why do we work?

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

It's entirely relevant, you're just being obtuse (again).  You want your trash taken away, you pay the city or county government, and they send either a city or contractor-owned truck to your residence to get rid of it.  You flush your toilet, and the crap heads through the pipes and out to the sewage treatment plant.

In your case. I have no city .gov picking up trash or providing me a sewer system.

[Gewehr98]

So how's that working for you?

Are you happy with the quality and level of non-government service with respect to your sewage and garbage?

Would your situation work for the majority of taxpaying Americans?

We can play this game all night long.  It's never a one-size-fits-all solution, and you'll never hear me say that.

No, not everybody makes use of the government services provided for Americans at large.

I could very well set up a Ted Kaczynski shack out in the woods, and dig an outhouse.     

Maybe then my level of outrage would be bolstered, because I'm not using as many of those services.

I'd probably be obligated to write a manifesto of sorts, too.   

However, I get so tired of people grousing about their tax burden, without thinking of the alternatives. 

MercedesRules was a good example of that.  He was a "Market Anarchist", and geared (in his mind) for total abolition of government.

The cure he had proposed, however, was considerably worse than the affliction.

Nobody likes taxes.  I wish Wisconsin were like Florida in that respect.  At least they're not taxing us for our televisions, unlike our British cousins...

[MicroBalrog]

Would your situation  work for the majority of taxpaying Americans?

Wait, you seriously think that private garbage disposal is unworkable for most people?

P.S. I am not an anarchist. I also do not subscribe with the Hobbesian notion that anarchy would automatically mean a terrible shut-down of civilization, though.

[Gewehr98]

Oh, I've got more, MB, much more.

I rather seriously doubt an urban taxpayer in the city of Average, USA, is willing to pay a contract on the side for having the snow plowed off the streets and salt spread vs. letting it simply be part of their property taxes.  They would be the same people screaming bloody murder if those snow-covered roads weren't cleared posthaste. The same goes for that fire department or ambulance visit.  Pay-as-you-go taxes could be a royal pain in the posterior once you start actually, you know, using such services.

The city came by my house the other day to replace a broken wheel on my 95-gallon recycling bin.  I watched as the recycling truck snapped it cleanly off thanks to operator technique. What do you suppose that service call would've cost me had it been billed seperately, vs. being part of the city's yearly O&M budget?  I was one scheduled stop on the city worker's route that day, vs. a separate trip, a smart move on the part of the city.  I'm not a big fan of socialism, but I'd like to think my city taxes that day were used in an efficient manner.

When I was living on beachside Florida until 2006, we lost a good portion of the beach between my house and the ocean due to heavy erosion from the repeated hurricanes.  Beach replenishment was a huge topic, people didn't want their property values on beachside homes to plummet due to lack of beach, but were aghast at the tax cost of the county and/or state bringing in more sand.  Of course, had they hired a contractor themselves...

You really can't have your cake and eat it too.  I'd love to think my yearly income taxes buy bologna sandwiches for the military, but I know my paltry tax burden wouldn't even buy them individual packets of mustard.  That's also why I find it hilarious when people demand excess government property be given to them because "they bought it with their tax dollars".  Yeah, and after your tax dollars bought some Depends for an incontinent old dude somewhere on Medicare, paid somebody else's Social Security, added a new piece to Barney Frank's buttplug collection, a case of baby formula for Octomom, military aid for Israel, and a bailout package for Wall Street, there might be enough left to chip some paint off a Humvee and send it in an envelope to you. 

[LadySmith]

I do the multiple jobs thing also, and here are my reasons…

Self-sufficiency, independence and responsibility.

I have myself, lots of critters and a gas tank to feed. If I were to be dependent upon the government or anyone else to do this, well…I'd be dependent and I don't like that.

I prefer being able to shop and eat at my leisure, not anyone else's.

Also, working is the most constructive means to keep me in guns and ammo. 

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

So how's that working for you?

No problems thus far. Okay, one problem that was solved with a plumber's snake a few years back... but that could probably happen with a sewer as well.

Are you happy with the quality and level of non-government service with respect to your sewage and garbage?

Yep. They pick the trash up and take it away once a week. And: "What makes the grass grow?" "Sewage! Sewage! Sewage!"  

Would your situation work for the majority of taxpaying Americans?

No. The majority of Americans are much more full of crap than I am.  

The garbage choice works well... especially since we've got a right to burn our garbage without permits and whatnot. They've been on time for several years running, and I don't see why they wouldn't work in a big city... having a higher populated area ought to make for much better profits, too.

As for the sewage... I'm not especially familiar with the septic system and how much area is needed to drain one properly. I know it requires a certain outlay of land, and there are homes in many cities with no land to speak of. Not sure how many Americans live in houses with land too small to put in a decent septic system, so I can't answer that. I've been in an area with sewer/.gov trash pickup, noticed no real difference... except, of course, that you can use garbage disposals with abandon/pour grease down the sink with no fear of screwing things up. Then again, we don't need a garbage disposal to begin with since we can toss the stuff outside for the foxes/armadillos/raccoons/ants/etc.

[Gewehr98]

My parents have a leach field/underground septic system on the farmstead.

They are very careful about what they put down the drain, and have even gone so far as to put the gray water discharge on a section of the lawn, vs. into the leach field.

They've had one or two expensive "hiccups", for lack of a better term, in that septic system.  They don't want to go to the newer mound system, so they're doing all they can to keep the current system working.  City sewer lines aren't an option for them, so they make do with that and well water that's as hard as the hubs of hell.  They have a county permit for their burning barrel, and they compost the biodegradable kitchen scraps. My dad drives his recyclables to the county reclamation point, a 20-mile round trip, about once a month.  Of course, he's not getting taxed for that per se, but there is a cost involved...

[jackdanson]

Let's forget that I'm retired military, and living on the dole, as it were. However, how good are you folks without roads and interstate highways, military protection of our nation, the guy who picks up your trash, the factory that takes our sewage and keeps it out of our lakes and streams, etc.  You know, all that silly stuff. Social Security probably won't be around by the time I get to that age, anyway.

That wasn't my primary complaint.. I don't have a problem with paying REASONABLE taxes, I have a problem with unfair tax levels and significantly too much spending.  I am sick of the government handing OUR money out to private individuals and corporations that HAVEN'T EARNED IT.  Substantial sums of money go to people and bussinesses that say "oops, I messed up, I need a handout".  That definetly would not include veterans who have done something to earn that money.  My trash hauling and sewage does not cost 4/10ths of my pay. (and we have a private corp take ours anyway)

[Fjolnirsson]

Continuing with the thread veer, I live in a city where the garbage service is provided by a private company. They have a "franchise agreement" with the city, however, which means that anyone attempting to open a new garbage service recycling center etc within the city has to receive approval through the private garbage company. A government enforced monopoly on garbage service, if you will. I've decided I don't like the rates I am being charged, so I started a compost pile as well as an aggressive recycling policy in my house. Now I have a small can of garbage once a month, and I take the recycling to the transfer station(free of charge) at the same time. The sewer and water I don't have a choice about, since the city does not allow new wells or septic within the city. I did have my property checked for a well, and there is plenty of good, clean water down there.
What steams me is having to pay for services I could do without, if left to my own devices. However, compared to my former home in CA, I live in a paradise of unregulated freedom. Darned near a utopia here. I can view it any way I want, but the fact is, I chose this place as the best compromise between myself and my wife. If I had my choice, I'd be off the grid in Montana or Idaho.

Why do I work? Because I refuse to let the worthless people get me down. Because despite the rampant abuse being heaped upon us by our elected officials, this is still the best deal out there, and I hope to improve things for my daughter and her children.

[Sindawe]

Are you happy with the quality and level of non-government* service with respect to your sewage and garbage?

I am.  Both come out of the dues I pay to the HOA each year.  The garbage gets picked twice weekly (more if some lout fills the dumpster with junk) and the recyclables go into a single stream collection point. 

*Water/sewage is LOCAL government provided.  City for potable, county for sewage.  And truthfully all the city water does is cover washing myself, the clothes and keeping the fracking alien grass green in the summer.  Drinking water in my home is private purchase in bottles.

I rather seriously doubt an urban taxpayer in the city of Average, USA, is willing to pay a contract on the side for having the snow plowed off the streets..

Hmmm...funny, *I* pay for that now on the little circuits of roads the HOA controls, and THAT plow job is done faster and better than that which is paid for via my taxes on government owned roads.

The city came by my house the other day to replace a broken wheel on my 95-gallon recycling bin.  I watched as the recycling truck snapped it cleanly off thanks to operator technique. What do you suppose that service call would've cost me had it been billed seperately, vs. being part of the city's yearly O&M budget?

Well, here the recycling comes to about $6.00/month/unit in our little community.  Damage to bins by the collecting staff comes out of THEIR budget per contract.  Sure they raise the cost of service to cover that, but WE pay for it, not my neighbors down the block who contract with a different company.  When THEIR recycling firms hoses the bins, I don't have to fork over the cash.

However, I'd love to see somebody come up with something better to trim the pork from the cost of government.

Hmmm  Baring National Defense, roads and courts; how much pork does one see?



But on the origional topic:  Why do we work?

Maybe I've been fortunate, or lucky, or wise.  Every job I've had post college has been in a field I've chosen solely for the love of what I do.  Sure, I may LOATH the way the company I work for is run, but day to day I do what I do because I enjoy it.  If I did not, I'd either

a: do something else

b: be found on the roof.  Naked.  With a deer rifle. 

[Balog]

I'm trying to understand where your coming from G98. I'm not saying let's abolish the .gov, or not pay taxes, or whatever it is you fellows are arguing about. I'm saying the majority of the fed.gov budget is spent on things the fed.gov has no business in. National Endowment for the Arts, National Public Radio, Medicare/caid, Social Security etc. I'm saying we should scrap all that garbage asap, and streamline what's left. What do you disagree with about that?

Also, please stop comparing retired and wounded vets to welfare recipients. Money that has been earned by fulfilling contractual obligations honorably is different than money "earned" by popping out babies and being lazy. Maybe you have some self-esteem issues that allow you to equate your disability payments (and mine) with Suzy McCrackwhore's foodstamps, but it's still fairly insulting to all the other retired and disabled vets on here.

[280plus]

I work because I get bored if I don't. If you want to feel the real pain of being taxed become self employed. My accountant says if everyone was self employed and had to give what amounts to their profits every quarter to the .gov like I do taxes would come down in no time. 

[tokugawa]

The Government as established in this country was to be a servant of the people, providing some essential services. It has Grown into a mechanism for taking as much money as possible from the citizens, and redistributing that money to whoever has the most power, with no regard whatsoever as to the effect on the citizens.  Every piece of legislation  is a nice sounding excuse for ripping us off, usually written in Orwellian language that means the exact reverse of what it will actually accomplish.   

  I used to be a solid advocate for the "American Way", laughed at the conspiracy wackos, was Mr. Rational Thinker supporting the system that has given us so much prosperity. Guess what- that system is GONE. 
  JackDanson and RoadKingLarry have echoed John Galt perfectly- how many others are there out there wondering the exact same thing?
 

[Ron]

Two years ago I left the "Rat Race"

I now make less per year than used to be withheld in taxes from my pay check.

Unfortunately the housing market tanked before I could sell the house and buy a place in the country free and clear.

I work to have money for food, hobbies and paying the mortgage. My hope is the stock market and housing market come back not only for all the retirees but for myself also. I'm done with having a mortgage. 

[Gewehr98]

I don't recall comparing my military pension to welfare in a serious vein, Balog.  I threw that in there to clear the air, because there are some on this forum who have indeed made the comparison before.  Most are no longer members...

Hunting over bait, as it were.

It's pathetically boring to hop into APS and read about the government being some big mind control organization, with the sole purpose of raping taxpayers to raise funds and implanting microchips in hapless citizens.

It appears that the "Liberals ate my Grandmother" talk here at APS has now shifted. See Tokugawa's posting, above? 

That's too bad.

It's one thing to disdain taxes.  I've even stated I have no love for the practice, but understand why we do so.  However, does anybody here really know where their tax dollars are going?  I worked for 20+ years for an agency that had a huge budget, running completely on appropriated funds.  We were always browbeat about being good stewards of the taxpayer's dollars, from day one. It was something like $10K/hour for keeping one four-engined WC-135 airborne and pointed in the right direction, at a minimum. Those of us on the crew though we were doing God's Work, in the process. IOW, we can make short lists of what we feel are acceptable and non-acceptable uses for appropriated funds, and I'll wager not one person can agree on what should or shouldn't fit in the plan. I'm willing to pay the city to haul my garbage away, some aren't.  I find HOAs to be evil incarnate, and somebody else would say they're better than city government - a real bargain.  I didn't have any warm fuzzies for either the bank bailouts or stimulus package, but if you asked somebody intimate with those industries they could give you a million reasons why they were a good idea. One really can't win, can they?

I dunno.

Maybe we should have a revolution, or civil war.

And blame it on Fistful.   

[Balog]

Glad to hear you weren't serious G98. Hard to convey humorous intent sometimes.

I must say your position is very relativistic. "We can't all agree, so no one is really right or wrong."

[WeedWhacker]

I rather seriously doubt an urban taxpayer in the city of Average, USA, is willing to pay a contract on the side for having the snow plowed off the streets and salt spread vs. letting it simply be part of their property taxes.  They would be the same people screaming bloody murder if those snow-covered roads weren't cleared posthaste. The same goes for that fire department or ambulance visit.  Pay-as-you-go [services] could be a royal pain in the posterior once you start actually, you know, using such services.

'Cause armed robbery, being simple and straightforward, is always the better choice - especially for a country once reknowned for its freedom. ;)

I do agree with your assessment of the reaction of the majority... still doesn't make it morally right.

I find HOAs to be evil incarnate, and somebody else would say they're better than city government - a real bargain.

The main difference is, there are alternatives to HOAs that don't involve being gunned down by HOA enforcement officers.

[bk425]

Or I contract the garbage company directly. As I believe some people already do. Garbage is disposal is a bad example of a Government Service Without Which Civilization Would Collapse.

No, it's a -great- example it's just counter to the point he was trying to make with it. Government garbage disposal is enormously less efficient then even "privatized" monopolies that the government bills for. And -those- are less efficient then private, competitive, garbage disposal which IS still done in our countries in places where government is still to small to demand that corner of service provision (mostly rural areas).  Roadways for another example are not more efficiently built because the state does it. Even -the- -state- is starting to acknowledge that in places like Washington where most construction is contracted out. So, justice system and defense mostly excepted, the more centralized government has control over a market the LESS efficient that market becomes. Hayek, Rothbard, all the Austrian economists have been saying this since the '20s and are right IMO... but don't worry I'm sure they'll do a -great- job running the financial sector

[tokugawa]

Life Magazine, Aug.15, 1969.   Headline "The Dollar Squeeze".

  Page 27- "A family struggles to stay even"- "Out of his 10,000 income, Frank Mrak paid $450 in sales tax, $265 in property tax and $ 800 in Federal, State and City income tax."   
 
   Fifteen percent combined ,ALL taxes   15 % !!! and it was killing him then!!!   
 ( $10,000 is about $62,000 in todays dollars.) So combined taxes at that 15% would be $9300 TOTAL, sales. property and federal state and local. 

 The whole section was about inflation and excessive taxation. "Intensity of Tax Revolt" headed one Q+A part. 
   
  We (us)(the government)  are running an unsustainable ponzi scheme. Anybody who has looked at the numbers knows this.   This entire "bailout" is a way to ensure the fat cats do not lose any money on their reckless casino bids, by making the taxpayers bleed to cover their bad bets.
  If you are not ready for torches and pitchforks, I submit you have not looked into the situation deeply enough.        (this is a rhetorical "you", don't nobody get their panties in a wringer!)
   And this is NOT a Dem-vs-Rep. debate.  Both parties are responsible. The ones who will bear the final burden are our children and their children.  We are headed full speed down the road to Argentina style ruin.
 

 
 

[HankB]

In regard to garbage hauling and the desirability of this service being provided by local government . . .

There are many areas in which the resident demographic would not pay for private garbage collection - they'll dump trash in the street, in the alley, in the yard, wherever - rather than pay separately to have it hauled away. (I grew up in Chicago - trust me on this.)

Even when "paid for" by the city, many are too lazy to walk to the trash bin and deposit it there - a good portion goes out the window.

And of course, they'll regularly call the news media/health department/local community activist to demand that their neighborhood be cleaned up, as it looks like a pigsty.

[Gewehr98]

I've been to those places, both overseas and here.

It's depressing, and makes one ask again, "Why do we work?"

Like I said, one cannot win when it comes down to choosing which services one gets for their tax dollars.

I'm not exactly thrilled that my tax dollars will become student aid for non-resident Israelis going for doctoral degrees in New York City, especially when they haven't paid a dime of U.S. taxes in their entire lives.

But &@^# does indeed happen, and that's how it goes...

[MicroBalrog]

I'm not exactly thrilled that my tax dollars will become student aid for non-resident Israelis going for doctoral degrees in New York City, especially when they haven't paid a dime of U.S. taxes in their entire lives.

You do realize student aid is mostly provided by private entities? Apart from state aid for which people who are not residents of a given state are not eligible. And federally-guaranteed loans, in which case you're not out a dime unless I die before finishing college.

[freedom lover]

I'm currently unemployed, so I'm not taxed (I'm a junior in HS ergo I depend on my father for necessitites). But I do work hard in school so I can hopefully make it into college. I want to work hard so I can have all the things my father (a CO) doesn't have now. I want to be able to afford a snowblower, house repairs, a truck, and some nice things by the time I'm 57. Money can not buy happiness, but I bet it can come close.

[Gewehr98]

Fixed it.

And federally-guaranteed loans, in which case you're not out a dime unless I die before paying back all that college tuition.

Exactly.  And why again should we taxpayers give aliens loans when our government cannot even properly manage domestic ones?   

Maybe something in the small print demanding they become residents, and use their U.S.-provided education here while paying taxes...

[MicroBalrog]

Exactly.  And why again should we taxpayers give aliens loans when our government cannot even properly manage domestic ones?   

The taxpayers do not give loans. Banks do.

Maybe something in the small print demanding they become residents, and use their U.S.-provided education here while paying taxes...

Oh this is my plan.

But then... would you want me to be teaching your child when he/she/it grows old enough to be in college?