I'm speachless. You're thoughts?

[roo_ster]

Political correctness has allowed people to become police officers that shouldn't be.  Cops should be a minimum of 6'0" tall and weigh at least 190 lbs.  The bigger the better.  Size matters in police work.  I know.  I did the work.

A LEO buddy of mine is 6'3" and ~250lbs when lean.  If he has been riding a desk, he pushes 300lbs.

Funny thing is, even when he was a detective and working crimes that called for no brute strength, his fellow LEOs often asked him to come along to serve warrants. I think it was not just for his ability to fight when fighting was needed, but his presence helped prevent fighting the way some highly-motivated & capable 110lb female LEO could not.

[MicroBalrog]

Note I do not claim that a ban on corporal punishment within the home will reduce crime. I claim merely that such a ban has not been shown to cause some form of violence crisis.

[grampster]

"but his presence helped prevent fighting the way some highly-motivated & capable 110lb female LEO could not"

Exactly.  I have lived that experience.  In my day, smaller officers were involved more often in physical confrontations that the really big guys.  I was 6'1" and a lean 190#.  I would have considered myself at the low end of height and weight that would be good.  We had quite a number of guys that were 6'3" and 200-210.  I was involved in situations that either wound up violent or had much potential for it.  The bigger the guys with the badges, the less likely the trouble.

Sometimes size didn't matter due to the physical and mental state of the trouble.  I found a proper nightstick to be a much more efficient tool, with many different uses that served to stop stuff, than mace, which was an experiment with our dept.  
I was the first person to use mace in our dept. way back in the mid 60's.  All it did was imobilize my partner.  I used my baton, ultimately, to end the problem.  I think tasers are risky and should not be used unless the officer is one on one with an obviously dangerous party or outnumbered.  Too often I see tasers used as a weapon of convenience rather than one of necessity.

[Balog]

This debate ultimately serves only to demonstrate the weakness of sociology as a "science." When all you can demonstrate is correlation, maybe, kinda your conclusions reflect your bias and nothing else.

[BlueStarLizzard]

10 year old was obviously in need of a much overdue good old fashioned spanking. Probably would have prevented the wole mess.
Of course on the the other hand. If mom had spanked the little darling it is a simple matter for the little princess to make a call to DHS/CPS and punish mom for such brutish behaviour by sending her to jail for child abuse.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

i think the spanking would have done a lot more good long before the brat hit 10. also, correcting behavior is started before kids get old enough to figure out to call athoritys to get out of disapline.

jeez, i had it down pat by the time i was 4 or 5. warning, second warning (raised voice at this point) and then a few solid swats to the rear and time out. by the time i was 10? i had changed my tatics from hissy fit to pleading and puppy eyes to stay up past bedtime. bonus points: puppy dog eyes often worked.  

as for tasers. can we take them away already. it seems like every other day someone gets tased that shouldn't be tased. the cops can have them back when they learn to use them better.

[Balog]

To the anti-taser folk: would you prefer if the officer used a nightstick? Why or why not? The question should be "Was use of force needed?" not "How did they apply that force?"

[BlueStarLizzard]

To the anti-taser folk: would you prefer if the officer used a nightstick? Why or why not? The question should be "Was use of force needed?" not "How did they apply that force?"

i'm not anti taser really. its a good tool for cops. they can take down a violent/aggressive suspect with minimal damage.

however, cops seem to be using it as a crutch.
I understand that they don't want to get hurt. i really get that, but if your gonna become a cop, you should be aware that you may have to get physical and you may very well get hurt.

but tasing a 10 year old? an older women trying to run on foot? seriously? thats just lazy.

my point is, make these officers that are using bad judgement on use of force go without their crutch until the learn how to use it appropriatly. and don't tell me that their supervisors can't peg who those guys/gals are before they do something stupid that ends up on the 6 o'clock news.

[Balog]

I agree that bad cops shouldn't be given tasers. I just prefer they also not have mace, nightsticks, guns, or badges.

[grampster]

Balog,
The nightstick or baton is a tool that has many uses.  One doesn't just swat someone in the head with it.  It can be applied to certain areas of the body such as face, neck, arms, hands, shoulders, collar bone, ribs, solar plexus, shins and used to tangle up the feet of someone attempting to flee.  It's like any tool, one needs to know what it's capabilities are and then train in their use.  If used in places other than the head, use of it is non fatal for sure.

With the taser, death can result at any time and has shown itself to be rather ineffective as noted by the use of multiple shocks.  A mentally unstable and violent young man was killed just a couple days ago in East Grand Rapids, here in West Michigan.  He was tased 4 times by two rather substantially sized police officers.
Sometimes police officers get a fat lip or two, some scrapes and bruises and torn clothes in the line of duty.  It's part of the job.  So the taser is employed rather than using physical force with either no effect or catastrophic effect.  It's use has become one of convenience sometimes/oftentimes? rather than necessity as I mentioned in my earlier post.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I agree that bad cops shouldn't be given tasers. I just prefer they also not have mace, nightsticks, guns, or badges.

you know, i wouldn't even say that all of them sound like bad cops. this guy with the kid, he got kicked in the nuts before he tased the kid. to me, he sounds like he was trying to do his job, but lost his cool when he got hurt.

my point is (and i know you guys are gonna cringe a bit on this) he should have sucked up and kept at it, not tase her.
he got frustrated and thought "non lethel taser, i'm done!" instead of "well shiznits that hurt! she's 10 so maybe if i can't get her without getting hurt i'll call for help."

which is why you take his taser and tell him, NEXT time you get into it with a suspect you wouldn't use a gun or a baton or mace on, you won't be using a taser either! (actually, i'd take his mace too)

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd just ask this:

What LAW did the little girl break that necessitated the officer ENFORCING some law?

I think it was 100% inappropriate for the officer to get involved in what is essentially a parental control issue.  If he truly felt that "authori-tay" needed to get involved in this situation... his taser is the wrong implement.  The taser is for protecting the public safety.  NOT for asserting his authori-tay.  Any more than the pistol on his hip.

All that was happening was some noise from the brat.  A call to CPS would get a child case worker out there with the psychological training to deal with bratty eff'ed up kids without using mace/nightstick/taser/gun on them.

This was an inappropriate escalation of force on private property where no discernible crime was committed, IMO.

If mom authorized this tasing... and mom didn't press charges or seek further involvement with CPS... then I want mom run up the river for child abuse.

You don't use tasers as disciplinary tools.  Period.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I'd just ask this:

What LAW did the little girl break that necessitated the officer ENFORCING some law?

they might try to get her with domestic abuse to the mother, or something along those lines.

i think thats what my mom was going for when i was 14. (yes, my mom called the cops on me. a verbal fight in the house escalated and she went to hit me so i pushed her off me. my dad witnessed the whole thing, and the fact that i tried to get her to calm down, but she was off her rocker at the time so...)

[AZRedhawk44]

Let me ask this:

Assume you're walking along the sidewalk at your neighborhood park, and you come across a police officer with taser drawn and pointed at a 10 year old throwing a temper tantrum.  No weapon evident on the kid's part.  No violence against anyone, just an impotent parent standing to the side urging the cop to tase.

What do you do as a responsible member of your community?

[Nick1911]

Let me ask this:

Assume you're walking along the sidewalk at your neighborhood park, and you come across a police officer with taser drawn and pointed at a 10 year old throwing a temper tantrum.  No weapon evident on the kid's part.  No violence against anyone, just an impotent parent standing to the side urging the cop to tase.

What do you do as a responsible member of your community?

Use my cell phone camcorder to take video, then post on youtube?

Seems like the most effective way to get peoples attention in the computer age.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Let me ask this:

Assume you're walking along the sidewalk at your neighborhood park, and you come across a police officer with taser drawn and pointed at a 10 year old throwing a temper tantrum.  No weapon evident on the kid's part.  No violence against anyone, just an impotent parent standing to the side urging the cop to tase.

What do you do as a responsible member of your community?

good question. *puts on pondering cap*

good men do nothing, evil....

yeah, i'd go after the officer and hope like hell someone is there to witness it, and be able to tell the courts.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Use my cell phone camcorder to take video, then post on youtube?

Seems like the most effective way to get peoples attention in the computer age.

better for making a point. kid could still get tased though. 

[Nick1911]

better for making a point. kid could still get tased though.  

Well, yea.  But it's not nearly as likely to result in getting shot from attacking an officer.

I wouldn't get between the kid and the cop.  Excellent way to get shot or at least charged with "Interfering with a police investigation".  Plus, just happening on the situation, you don't know the whole story.  Things aren't always as they appear.

[MicroBalrog]

To the anti-taser folk: would you prefer if the officer used a nightstick? Why or why not? The question should be "Was use of force needed?" not "How did they apply that force?"

The problem is exactly that some officers seem to believe tasers can be used in a situation in which a baton or mace would never be used.

[Perd Hapley]

Well, yea.  But it's not nearly as likely to result in getting shot from attacking an officer.

I wouldn't get between the kid and the cop.  Excellent way to get shot or at least charged with "Interfering with a police investigation".  Plus, just happening on the situation, you don't know the whole story.  Things aren't always as they appear.

This.  In the hypothetical, the cop probably knows more about the situation than you do.  He might have been told that the kid just shot somebody, but you can't see the gun.

[Balog]

I'm with Nick: better a kid gets tased than I get shot or become a felon. I have my own family to think of. Now, if a cop is beating someone in handcuffs or something, maybe. But I don't want to judge a situation too quickly without all info. What if it was like that case a few years back where a kid attacked a cop with iirc a knife or piece of glass or something?

[MechAg94]

The problem is exactly that some officers seem to believe tasers can be used in a situation in which a baton or mace would never be used.

As has been said countless times before, police procedures often call for the use of a taser before even laying hands on a suspect or applying physical force/coercion.  No one on these forums ever seems to remember that.  The police officer was likely trained and knows when to use a taser much better than anyone on this forum. 

In this case, the first time the cop tried to lay hands on the kid, he got kicked in the nads and the kid was fighting all the way.  After the taser, he apparently got better cooperation.  The way it was described, it sounded like he just brushed the kid with the end of the taser pistol real quick.  He didn't shoot her with the barbs and light her up a bunch of times.  This sounds a lot more justified than some of the speeding ticket incidents.

Now, whether the cop should have been involved at all is a whole nother question and I don't know the answer.  However, as LawDog has said on his forum, if the cops are called out to the house, likely someone is going for a ride in the back of the police car.  If you don't like that, don't call the cops. 


The really sad thing to me is the mother is apparently incompetent and the kid got thrown in a home at least temporarily.  That sucks all around.

[BlueStarLizzard]

sorry guys, your right, i wouldn't know the situation and yeah it could be really bad and the cop correct. but i'm not sure i can watch a 10 year old get tased. 

[MechAg94]

sorry guys, your right, i wouldn't know the situation and yeah it could be really bad and the cop correct. but i'm not sure i can watch a 10 year old get tased. 

Please be clear that I am not saying I like the idea of tasing 10 year olds, but this isn't the first such incident and I don't hear much about police departments changing procedures or firing the officers involved.  Someone in authority in various departments thinks the current policies are the best option. 

Obviously, the best option here would have been for the mother to take care of things and leave the cops out of it completely. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

Please be clear that I am not saying I like the idea of tasing 10 year olds.

i would never think that anyone on this site advocated taseing kids. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i can think of a couple 10 year olds i would cheerfully taze  so long as i can taze their parents too