Author Topic: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate  (Read 10235 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2010, 06:46:15 AM »
If we had just adopted the FAL along with the rest of NATO back in the '50's, we wouldn't need to have this discussion....  ;/
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AJ Dual

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Re: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2010, 09:53:10 AM »
Even further, if we hadn't forced ".30-'06 Kurz" on all of NATO, and gone with a 6-7mm "sweet spot" caliber like everyone had been talking about back in the 1950's, we wouldn't be here either.   ;/

Nor would we be talking about 6.8SPC etc. We'd be using .280 Enfield, or whatever that was similar.

Then of course we switched gears a few years later and came out with 5.56. At least it's good to know what stern stuff our NATO allies were if the balloon had ever gone up with the Warsaw Pact. I mean, if they could put up with the U.S....  :laugh:

I certainly think 5.56 is adequate, but they went a bit too far in the "faster/lighter is better" direction when they re-purposed .222 as a military round.
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230RN

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Re: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2010, 03:57:03 PM »
seeker_two:

Quote
If we had just adopted the FAL along with the rest of NATO back in the '50's, we wouldn't need to have this discussion....

Which is right in line with what I said before:

Quote
But I must re-emphasize that with all the "improvements" that became necessary, and all the debate about it even 50-60 years later, and all the other systems that had to be created to overcome its deficiencies, it is self-evident, plain, and obvious, that it is not suitable as a military cartridge --rifling twists, canneluring, thickening the brass, boosting bullet weights and pressures, and brass-hat hype notwithstanding.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2010, 04:58:18 PM »

Yeah, why didn't they just adopt the .276 Pederson back in the 1920s?  Would have saved us a whole lot of trouble.  ;)
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AJ Dual

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Re: Yahoo rehashes the great M-16 debate
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2010, 05:00:29 PM »
Well, part of the issue is that as compared to missiles bombs, and artillery, all rifles are marginal man-stoppers.

You have a very tiny bit of lead and copper that has to intersect a moving human who's not cooperating with your efforts to shoot him. The world is big, people are small, and bullets even smaller.

Often "hits that fail to stop" aren't even hits at all.

And sometimes people who do get hit don't know they're supposed to politely fall over and die either. When it happens to our guys, it's heroic. When it's theirs, it's an "ammo failure".

And of course, we could give every trigger puller a cut down Barrett .50 BMG, but it would be impractical. We could even give everyone a 7.62 NATO rifle again. But instead we'd be bemoaning the fact of how often we ALSO get into CQB and MOUT and it's unwieldy. Or how a unit that got cut off momentarily couldn't hump enough ammo.

It's always a compromise. And there is indeed merit in the ideas behind the 5.56. Firepower, weight, control-ability, flat trajectory...  But it comes at the expense of terminal performance. You up the terminal performance with larger rounds, and the others suffer.

So getting into the intermediate 6-7mm neighborhood, getting back some terminal performance, and keeping some firepower/weight/flat shooting might the way to go. Of course the logistical concerns of doing so are not small.

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