Air raid!

[Manedwolf]

King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri. 

Is he, now.

Jordan:





Gaza (which is ON THE FREAKING COAST and could have been a tourist destination!):

[grampster]

"IMHO (3) is the most likely outcome, since the public war aims (stopping rocket and mortar fire) are so clearly impossible to achieve without killing absolutely everyone that they will have to pull out.  Hamas will then launch a few rockets - which after all are extremely low tech and easy to fire off - and point out that they are still there, and have therefore won.  They will then be massively boosted as a result, just as Hezbollah was in Lebanon.  That could easily lead to Fatah being kicked out of the West Bank (despite all the Western support), and further problems for Mubarak in Egypt."

All the more reason for Israel, finally, to deliver the fait accompli to Hamas and it's sponsors....Live with us in peace, for this is what we desire and to which we commit ourselves.  We will then live together as good neighbors should.  Others have chosen to do so and it is preferable for all.  It is your choice to make.  If you choose otherwise, then we are not responsible for what shall follow.  And then do one or the other.

The trouble with modern warfare, when it is necessary, when it is the last resort, it is not carried out properly.

to answer the question whether the Palestinians have rights...sadly, when they choose to live and act by the rule that their neighbor, The State of Israel, not only should be dissolved, but its people, men, women and children, be wiped from the face of the earth by any means, then the answer is no!

[Scout26]

Quoting Sherman just hammers it home.  Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.

1.  Pali's have rights, infact more rights in Israel then in the Territories....  But with rights come responsiblities, like "Don't shoot at your neighbors, they might shoot back."

2.  A little reading of history and you'll find that Sherman's March produced significantly fewer casualties compared to the bloodletting that Grant and Lee were conducting in Virginia.   Sherman destroyed Property and Morale.   Might I suggest The Soul of Battle: From Ancient Times to the Present Day, How Three Great Liberators Vanquished Tyranny by Victor Davis Hanson.  Sherman is an apt comparison and a model on how to conduct war.

3.  How many missles would have to be lobbed into US from anywhere in the world before the US hit the "Unleash Hell" button ??   Hint:  After four airliners were used as suicide missles, we went after two countries.

[agricola]

All the more reason for Israel, finally, to deliver the fait accompli to Hamas and it's sponsors....Live with us in peace, for this is what we desire and to which we commit ourselves.  We will then live together as good neighbors should.  Others have chosen to do so and it is preferable for all.  It is your choice to make.  If you choose otherwise, then we are not responsible for what shall follow.  And then do one or the other.

The trouble with modern warfare, when it is necessary, when it is the last resort, it is not carried out properly.

to answer the question whether the Palestinians have rights...sadly, when they choose to live and act by the rule that their neighbor, The State of Israel, not only should be dissolved, but its people, men, women and children, be wiped from the face of the earth by any means, then the answer is no!

Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist. 

There is a somewhat prescient article at the SSI here, that really demands to be read:  http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/abstract.cfm?q=894

[Manedwolf]

Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist. 

If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.

[MicroBalrog]

If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.

Are you implying the Brits attempted to exterminate all of Germany?

[Hawkmoon]

Ah, the old collective guilt way of thinking.

Is there any way in which it is inappropriate?

Before Israel began responding, do you think the people who lived in Gaza didn't (publicly or privately) cheer each and every time they saw a rocket being launched from their neighborhood in the direction of Israel? "Yay, there goes another one! I that one kills some Zionist swine!"

Then Israel says, "Enough, already," and shoots back, and all of a sudden ALL the Palestinians in Gaza are peace-loving, innocent bystanders.

Bull.

[agricola]

If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.

What utter nonsense.  

Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled.  Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks.  The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences.  They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.

Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie:  from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.  

I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).

[makattak]

What utter nonsense.  

Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled.  Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks.  The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences.  They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.

Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie:  from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.  

I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).

Ah yes, we should ignore aggression and will to murder until those harboring such intentions are better able to carry out their desires.

So Isreal, just sit back and wait until Iran gives Hamas a nuke and THEN you can do something.

Until then, it's just unfair to fight back.

[MicroBalrog]

Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.

[agricola]

Ah yes, we should ignore aggression and will to murder until those harboring such intentions are better able to carry out their desires.

So Isreal, just sit back and wait until Iran gives Hamas a nuke and THEN you can do something.

Until then, it's just unfair to fight back.

Yes, unlikely hypothetical scenarios totally justify what is going on.

[Scout26]

What utter nonsense.  

Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled.  Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks.  The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences.  They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.

Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie:  from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.  

I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).

Gosh you're right.....Until Hamas gets better rockets and becomes capable of actually slaughtering ALL the Jews in Israel, we can just ignore them.......[/sarcasm]

bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy christian and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled.

 WOW, that reads right out the Hamas playbook.

I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).

Last I checked, Saddam hasn't used any WMD's since the invasion.......

P.S.  The reason the RAF and USAAF were conducting area bombing was because that was one of the few means available to the Allies until they wre able to mount the cross channel invasion.   Also note that once the cross channel invasion took place the area bombing attacks increased.  

[Scout26]

Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.

There are two ways of dealing with people, by logic or by force.  IIRC, some blogger whom I can recall at the momemnt wrote a pretty good article about it, RE: why he owned guns.

Remember the purpose of war is to bend the enemy to your will. (In this case: Stop shooting missles at our civilians.)   If BOTH sides are not willing to sit down and discuss their differences and work to a common solution, then war can be avoid.  But when one side starts off by saying that "You have no right to exist", that makes negotiations pretty near impossible.

[agricola]

Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.

That appears to be the choice people are suggesting here.  

Personally - though its almost certainly too late for it now - I would like to see some sanity brought back to the peace process.  Like it or not, Hamas are (or rather should be) the elected government in all of the occupied territories, we will (as McCain said before he found it embarrassing to do so) have to deal with them if a lasting peace is to be achieved.  Pretending they dont exist and idiotically backing Abbas and Fatah (does anyone really think that being supported by the US and Israel is going to improve his/their standing amongst Palestinians?) as the only game in town with regards to negotiations will inevitably lead to yet more violence.  

  

[Manedwolf]

That appears to be the choice people are suggesting here.  

Personally - though its almost certainly too late for it now - I would like to see some sanity brought back to the peace process.  Like it or not, Hamas are (or rather should be) the elected government in all of the occupied territories, we will (as McCain said before he found it embarrassing to do so) have to deal with them if a lasting peace is to be achieved.  Pretending they dont exist and idiotically backing Abbas and Fatah (does anyone really think that being supported by the US and Israel is going to improve his/their standing amongst Palestinians?) as the only game in town with regards to negotiations will inevitably lead to yet more violence.  

Hamas ended the ceasefire.

Hamas started pinging rockets into Israel again.

Explain how that works with what you just stated.

[grampster]

Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist. 

Ah, another example of humanity's ability to ignore the painfully obvious.

Conquest has been recognized as one way nations and cultures come into being and others go away.  It ain't pretty, but it is undeniable.  God gave Israel a plot of ground a long time ago.  If anyone doesn't choose to believe that, it doesn't really matter, actually because Israel conquered the peoples of the area to keep it.  Israel was subsequently conquered. dispersed and in the end reestablished.

After that, in 1967, Israel conquered all comers that chose to be involved in the area and reinforced their legitimacy.

Those are undeniable facts.  Oddly, most Israeli's appear to be willing to not only live side by side with Arabs, even after the continuing stupidity of certain factions of Arabs, they are willing to do much more than that.  They have exhibited that willingness over and over.  Certain Arabs, on the other hand, seem to not have the sense to know that all they have to do is accept what is a fact.  They were beaten, but the party that beat them is willing to accept them and live with them in peace.  Other Arab states have come to a reasonable conclusion that peace and tolerance seems to be a better way to live than squalor, hate, and continual fighting.  By the way, one does not seem to see a rush by other Arab states to assimilate any of their brothers and sisters.  Could it be that certain factions of Arabs aren't able to get along with anyone, even themselves on occasion?

So, from a historical perspective, if the so called Palestinians really wanted to live peaceful lives, why don't they start acting like it.  Usually, at some point, the culture or State they are continually jabbing, is going to have enough of it and exercise the option that they have tried mightily to avoid for the last 40 years; scorched earth.  I for one wouldn't blame them, even while I wept over the fools that brought that upon themselves. 

[agricola]

Hamas ended the ceasefire.

Hamas started pinging rockets into Israel again.

Explain how that works with what you just stated.

i) the West responded to Hamas being elected in 2006 by cutting off all funding to the Palestinian Authority, then arming and supporting the party (which lets not forget has killed more than a few Israelis in suicide bombings, rocket fire and other terrorist attacks) which lost.  When Hamas turned the tables on Fatah in the Gaza Strip, the West pretended they didnt exist and made sure that their chief negotiator was someone who is probably the second least likely person to encourage hopes of peace.  It then allowed Israel to blockade Gaza.  These actions are unlikely to lead to a lasting peace process;
ii) I said "though its almost certainly too late for it now".  This should have made your post redundant.

[makattak]

i) the West responded to Hamas being elected in 2006 by cutting off all funding to the Palestinian Authority, then arming and supporting the party (which lets not forget has killed more than a few Israelis in suicide bombings, rocket fire and other terrorist attacks) which lost.  When Hamas turned the tables on Fatah in the Gaza Strip, the West pretended they didnt exist and made sure that their chief negotiator was someone who is probably the second least likely person to encourage hopes of peace.  It then allowed Israel to blockade Gaza.  These actions are unlikely to lead to a lasting peace process;
ii) I said "though its almost certainly too late for it now".  This should have made your post redundant.

Sooooooooo....

Gaza doesn't share a border with Egypt?

[lupinus]

You. Can. Not. Negotiate. With. People. Who. Want. You. To. Die.

Until "Death to Israel" is no longer part of their demands, you can't have peace.  No one wants war when it can be avoided.  But when one side wants nothing but total surrender, peace can't be reached.

[agricola]

You. Can. Not. Negotiate. With. People. Who. Want. You. To. Die.

Until "Death to Israel" is no longer part of their demands, you can't have peace.  No one wants war when it can be avoided.  But when one side wants nothing but total surrender, peace can't be reached.

Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you.  Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you.  Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then. 

To do so would be fruitless.

 

Gaza doesn't share a border with Egypt?

Yes, it does.  They agreed to close it at Israel's request.

[MicroBalrog]

Yes, it does.  They agreed to close it at Israel's request.

Of course, Hamas attacking Egyptian citizens and police has NOTHING to do with that.

[Manedwolf]

Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you.  Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you.  Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then. 

What part of "They WANT to die" isn't clear to you, exactly? Or the part about "never resting until they or their children or their children's children wipe Israel from the face of the earth"?

THEY. WANT. TO. DIE. AS. MARTYRS.

That is not fixable! Ever!

[MicroBalrog]

It's interesting that the most reasonable view of the peace process I ever heard was stated by a former FATAH fighter.

[agricola]

What part of "They WANT to die" isn't clear to you, exactly? Or the part about "never resting until they or their children or their children's children wipe Israel from the face of the earth"?

THEY. WANT. TO. DIE. AS. MARTYRS.

That is not fixable! Ever!

Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them.  And their neighbours.  And their plumbers.  And their plumbers neighbours.  In fact anyone who uses reasonably large cylindrical objects is probably asking for it, and come to think of it what kind of people live next to people who use reasonably large cylindrical objects anyway?  They probably want to die too.  

Oh, and some other people who live suspiciously near the border.  

Whatever you do, dont talk to them!  They want to die!

[agricola]

It's interesting that the most reasonable view of the peace process I ever heard was stated by a former FATAH fighter.

I think we are in desperate need of reason on this thread.