Hatin' on the Honda

[roo_ster]

Well, not hate exactly, just exasperation at the cost of what one would think a simple repair, as I just dropped $1000 on our 2004 Honda Element with 95K miles.


Last oil change the fellows suggested I replace the air filter, but they had none in stock.  So, I go to NAPA and pick up their best air filter and finally find time Monday to install it.

How hard can it be?  Well, not very, but the process is unforgiving of error.  See, the Element was originally built on the same basic design of the CR-V, which was derived from the Civic.

To make the Element more responsive, they stuffed the 4-cyl from the Accord under the hood.  You can imagine how cramped and convoluted it is under the hood.  Actually, double the complexity you are contemplating and you'll be close.

Back to my air filter...  It is relatively simple to remove the 5 bolts holding eht housing together.  I kept telling myself, "Don't drop one, you'll never find it in that mess below."  So I was careful as can be...and still dropped one of the metric bolts, never to be found this side of the car crusher.

Luckily, I just got into cycling and bought an assortment of metric fasteners.  One of those puppies, 3 flat washers, and 3 lock washers and I was in business.


Anyways, I was to take it into the shop the next AM, as both the electrical cooling fans behind the radiator were out.  Seeing how deep they were in the under-hood mess that is the Element's engine, transaxle, and suspension bay, I figured it would take me a couple of weekends to get to them.

How much can two cheesy electrical fans with plastic blades cost?  Well, $250 each.  Toss in $500 labor, and now you're talkin' four figures.  Ouch.  I can't begrudge them the labor costs, considering just how deep they are buried and the time required to remove all the componentry.

I can't help but wonder that a BMW or Mercedes would cost about the same for the same service.  Maybe more in parts, but the BMW & Merc have old-school longitudinal engines and RWD.  I bet there is more room to work under their hoods and the bits are easier to access.

[Regolith]

What is it with car makers jamming the engine bay chock full to the point where it makes it difficult to do anything to it these days?

Comparing newer cars to older ones, the difference is just ridiculous.  My sister had a '66 Mustang, with a straight four.  There was almost enough room in there to use as an extra trunk.  My dad's '90 F250 had a big honking engine, but it also had a massive engine bay, so you could still move around in it.  My first Explorer, a '91 also had a fair amount of space to play with.

My '96 Explorer? Absolutely no room.  And it has the same sized engine as the freaking '91.  How the heck my mechanic gets to the spark plugs is beyond me, because even though I can see em (or at least, see where their approximate location is), I can't get to 'em.  My brother's '00 Explorer is the same way.

And those things are cake walks compared to newer vehicles.

You'd think the manufacturer's don't want us to work on our own cars.   

[Boomhauer]

You'd think the manufacturer's don't want us to work on our own cars.

They don't want you working on your own car. They want you to take it to the dealer for the most routine service...

Think of it like printer manufacturers...they make more money off of the ink versus the printer itself. Or movie theaters- more money off of the concessions than the movie itself.

I love my '99 Silverado and Dad's Suburban. Plenty of room to actually get in their and wrench on stuff. The engine bay of an S-10 based vehicle is as small as I ever care to go...

[French G.]

I may hate my POS  '91 ford truck but I was able to drop the transmission and rebuild it myself, the only beyond Wal-mart grade tool being a tranny jack. Modern cars are designed to screw the buyers, if you must ride new iron, buy a demo car with low miles and sell it before it gets to 100K. Let someone else fix it.   I looked at an '07 Saab, real close actually as I had dropped a bit of foil from the anti-freeze jug into the coolant tank. None of the sparkplugs were visible. We knew there was a transmission under there but couldn't see it. Engine compartment was warm 5 hours after the drive thanks to das turbinbooster, real good for electronics I bet. I'll Never own crap like that. I owned a turbo Saab once, '80 vintage, all the fuel  electronics bypassed, wastegate just gone in the turbo. Fun to drive until the turbo finally ate itself. It did take me 12 hours to change the starter even on that rudimentary piece, seems they stick it behind all the exhaust.

[mtnbkr]

I like my Camry.  4cyl engine in a space designed for 6cyl engines.  Everything is within reach and visible, even the starter.  I replaced the alternator in less than an hour this Spring.

Chris

[alex_trebek]

Well, $250 each.

$250 is $25 above what this site says is MSRP.  I find the prices on this site are identical to the ones at my local dealership. 

Sweet honda parts site (check shipping charges before you buy next time).

The local dealer quoted me a price of ~600 for new belts on my Civic.  This included the labor and parts for all the belts, including the timing belt and water pump.  IIRC, the engine has to be partially removed to replace these parts since it is FWD and located next to the wheel well.  The quoted price was about $50 higher than the cheapest shop in town, and much lower than several of the others. 

I would say you need a new dealership.  I also question both fans going out at the same time, unless there is some correlation you didn't mention.  Both civic's I had, had the cheap plastic fans for the A/C and Radiator.  None of them ever went out, even after 200,000 miles and ~15 years.

What is it with car makers jamming the engine bay chock full to the point where it makes it difficult to do anything to it these days?

$$$ also consider that making a car bigger than what it needs to be is extra steel for the frame and body.  That is extra dead weight, and will harm fuel efficiency.  Honda designs cars to be inexpensive, and fuel efficient first.

Think of it like printer manufacturers...they make more money off of the ink versus the printer itself. Or movie theaters- more money off of the concessions than the movie itself.

Honda, GM, Ford, whoever make money off of sell NEW cars.  They indirectly make money off of third parties sell USED cars, as this raises the resell price and decreases supply.  If someone really wants a Honda/GM/Ford and can't find one used for sale, they will probably buy a new one (especially if the resale price for a used one is near the new price, e.g a 2007 civic).

AFAIK they do NOT make a cent off of labor charges, or parts.  The culprit is the dealership for that one.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I like my Camry.  4cyl engine in a space designed for 6cyl engines.  Everything is within reach and visible, even the starter.  I replaced the alternator in less than an hour this Spring.

Chris

I like mine for the same reason.  Except that my particular model year has a habit of eating crankshaft seals.  For a front & rear crank seal, belts, idler pulley, and a clutch job, the best price I found was about $2100...  But I figure that buys me another 5 years in this car.  I'm gonna have to redo the CV joints this year, but I found out that the local shop can get OEM half shafts installed for a hair over $300...

[K Frame]

I like my Camry.  4cyl engine in a space designed for 6cyl engines.  Everything is within reach and visible, even the starter.  I replaced the alternator in less than an hour this Spring.

Chris

Accessibility and ease of regular maintenance were really the only reasons why I truly liked my Plymouth Sundance. Otherwise it was a piece of crap. I still got 160,000 miles out of the original clutch, though.

[roo_ster]

$250 is $25 above what this site says is MSRP.  I find the prices on this site are identical to the ones at my local dealership. 

Sweet honda parts site (check shipping charges before you buy next time).

I have seen that web site before.  Very likely where I will get my rear shocks and front struts when I find time to replace them.


Below is what they replaced, in total:

Code: [Select]

       part_num       desc                                  List          HAP
        1095680         FAN, COOLING                          48.85          34.2
         446212        MOTOR, COOLING FAN                     217.4        152.18
        1095590         FAN, COOLING (DENSO)                  57.52         40.26
        1095591        MOTOR, COOLING FAN (DENSO)            221.08        154.76
                                                             544.85         381.4        Tot_Parts


If they had ordered from the site, $500 would be a 30% markup from HAP or 10% off retail.  However, they got them locally.

Replacing them myself was not an option.  It is the primary family-hauler and my guessimate was that the Element would be down two weekends if I were to do it my self, due to the complexity of the arrangement.  Add to that, I can not afford to have the Element down 9+ days, as my truck can not legally haul the kiddos and the fines for doing so would have been $200/incident/kid=$400 ticket if caught hauling the two kids in my truck.  Once.

[Remember, child-seat laws are there to help us.]

I have done other auto repairs, most recently replacing the radiator and hoses on my 97 Nissan Ext Cab PU (jump seats not legal for kid transport, anymore).

I would say you need a new dealership.  I also question both fans going out at the same time, unless there is some correlation you didn't mention.  Both civic's I had, had the cheap plastic fans for the A/C and Radiator.  None of them ever went out, even after 200,000 miles and ~15 years.

They were both out, as I saw them not working as the temp gage moved to the right before I took it into the shop.

I suspect the Element design, coupled with the mild weather we have had herebouts, allowed the Element to keep going without overheating even though one fan was toast.  When the other went, I noticed the rising temp when at idle. Mild traffic through downtown Dallas did not cause it to get too wacky, either.

The nearest stealership dealership is just down the road.  Problem is, they are crooks.  The honest Honda dealership is 45 min in a direction that neither I nor my wife has any school or business.

The shop I took it to is a compromise and on my way to work.  I was able to drop it off early in the AM and ride my bike 3 miles to work.  Reverse process in the PM.

They are not cheap, but they have actually fixed every problem that I have presented them on every vehicle I have.  That is more than I can say for many shops I have used.  

The old time vs money trade-off is what I face and have voted for "time," given our current circumstances.

One reason I use that shop is that they were able to remove and replace an oxygen sensor on my wife's (now FIL's) 95 Honda Civic.  Every other shop that took a whack said it was stuck and we'd have to remove the entire exhaust manifold and accompanying gaskets in addition to the seized up oxygen sensor.

If I had more time, I'd take it to the Honda dealership that is 45 min away, which is what we did before my wife was in RN school and it was in warranty.

[mfree]

" Plymouth Sundance. "

No kidding. The only jobs that are hard on that car are changing manifolds/gaskets and starters.

I have watched video of guys at the racetrack changing a headgasket in less than 8 minutes.

I have also watched shortened videos of guys at the racetrack changing a COLLAPSED PISTON in less than an hour. Collapsed piston? 32psi boost will do that sort of thing :)

I think the problem we have with modern cars is that everything and it's banjo has to go underhood because we value our precious space inside, and the manufacturers also need to keep the outside proportions trim and tidy, so you have a 6' compartment's worth of hoses and such crammed into a 4' compartment.

Could be worse. Could be a Toyota MR2 or a VW new Beetle.

[Thor]

Speaking of child seat laws and seat belt laws, how the heck did some of us ever survive before these laws were enacted?? I remember banging my head on the dashboard of a 55 Chevy BelAir when I was young (like 4 or 5) I remember sleeping on the floorboard of the passenger's side when I was about that age. I'm certain that I NEVER had a car seat when I was an infant or toddler. And, yet, I've reached the ripe old age of 50. As I see it, a person's going to die when the good Lord wants them to.

[mtnbkr]

Speaking of child seat laws and seat belt laws, how the heck did some of us ever survive before these laws were enacted??...I've reached the ripe old age of 50.

Some of us didn't.

As I see it, a person's going to die when the good Lord wants them to.

I'd rather take reasonable precautions against having my kids die a preventable death

Chris

[roo_ster]

Some of us didn't.
I'd rather take reasonable precautions against having my kids die a preventable death

Chris

I am on board with you, personally.

But, ought that (and every other good idea and reasonable precaution) be codified into law with serious fines ($200)? 

I may have been willing to stuff the toddlers in the (seat belted) jump seats in the extended cab portion of my truck.  Heck, I might have required them to wear their bike helmets.  Because of nanny-state laws, I do not have that option, or the option of letting my Element sit in the driveway until I can repair it.

[mtnbkr]

But, ought that (and every other good idea and reasonable precaution) be codified into law with serious fines ($200)? 

I may have been willing to stuff the toddlers in the (seat belted) jump seats in the extended cab portion of my truck.  Heck, I might have required them to wear their bike helmets.  Because of nanny-state laws, I do not have that option, or the option of letting my Element sit in the driveway until I can repair it.

I don't have a good answer.  I don't like govt telling me I have to do such things, but small children aren't in a position to demand those safety devices and may not understand the need.  Do we penalize (with the penalty being serious injury or death) those children because their parents aren't concerned with their children's' safety? 

Chris

[agricola]

Did anyone else click this link expecting to read about Nicky Hayden?

[K Frame]

"how the heck did some of us ever survive before these laws were enacted??"

Many didn't.

Accidents that can now be shrugged off had the potential to cause grievous injury and death in years past.

The reason we survived is because our parents managed not to get into those kinds of accidents.

[Brad Johnson]

What is it with car makers jamming the engine bay chock full to the point where it makes it difficult to do anything to it these days?

Smaller car = less wind resistance and lower weight = better fuel economy. 

To maximize passenger room you have to minimize unused space, thus the cramped interiors of engine compartments and underdash areas that require total dissasembly to change even the smallest component.

If you want to blame someone, blame the govt and CAFE mandates.

Brad

[lupinus]

I think it comes down to a few things.

Big one is how much crap they cram onto an engine (or to run the engine).  Theres a lot more going on in there now then 20+ years ago.  This adds more stuff, which takes up more space under the hood. 

Also a lot of cars used to be offered with a wide range of engine sizes.  Mustangs that could come with a 4 cyl all the way up to massive 8's for instance.  How many cars now are available with either like that?  Not many, I think the best you will find normally will be 4 or 6 in the same car.

[Ryan in Maine]

Here's the shot of the engine on a new Accord courtesy of Honda's website:


Found a shot of the new Ridgeline too:

[Zed]

is it just me or does the accord have the same size engine compartment?

& BTW, my truck has a Massive 7.3L Turbo Diesel V8 under the hood and I can still get in at things to fix them.
The Gas Ford & Dodge Trucks both have enough room for you to climb in to do your work.

dunno about chevy/gm though.

[roo_ster]

is it just me or does the accord have the same size engine compartment?

& BTW, my truck has a Massive 7.3L Turbo Diesel V8 under the hood and I can still get in at things to fix them.
The Gas Ford & Dodge Trucks both have enough room for you to climb in to do your work.

dunno about chevy/gm though.

I am thinking about a 2000-2002 Excursion with the 7.3L diesel.

[Kwelz]

I never had any trouble working on my wife's Element, in fact I found the bay pretty spacious for the vehicle.  However the one tight spot in my opinion is where you ran into trouble.  I loved the Engine bay on my Acura before it got totaled.  Very clean, very easy to work with.  Even though I drive a GM right now I really think Honda makes some of the best cars out there. 

[Scoobydoo]

Did anyone else click this link expecting to read about Nicky Hayden?

yes!


For the record, if anyone cares, in the late 1990's Honda got a new person at the top and all sorts of things changed.  I'll take a 1999 over a 2001+ Honda any time.