Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MicroBalrog on December 27, 2008, 08:04:00 AM
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The operation in Gaza started as of today. The Palestinians are firing their rockets in return, and the army instructed everybody all the way up to Ashdod to stay indoors. Nobody really cares about the warning, and people keep with their daily shopping and so forth.
That said, me and 2swap were outside when we heard an actual air raid alarm. We wanted to continue our walk because we saw nobody was really caring for it, but my parents called us and insisted that we at least come back home (not even my parents actually went for the bomb shelter or safe room).
So far it seems safe. Nothing actually reached my town. We'll be posting more if more stuff comes up.
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Glad y'all are okay.
I can't imagine being that complacent under the circumstances, but I've never been exposed to it, either.
Definitely keep us posted.
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The operation in Gaza started as of today. The Palestinians are firing their rockets in return, and the army instructed everybody all the way up to Ashdod to stay indoors. Nobody really cares about the warning, and people keep with their daily shopping and so forth.
That said, me and 2swap were outside when we heard an actual air raid alarm. We wanted to continue our walk because we saw nobody was really caring for it, but my parents called us and insisted that we at least come back home (not even my parents actually went for the bomb shelter or safe room).
So far it seems safe. Nothing actually reached my town. We'll be posting more if more stuff comes up.
What kind of safe room do you have? I've seen photos of everything there from double-thick concrete to a bunch of old wornout flak vests stuffed in walls.
And what the HELL is with Fox's headline? "Bloodiest Day for Palestinians in 20 Years" First captioned photo is:
Dec. 27: Palestinian children and a man wounded in Israeli missile strikes are seen in the emergency area at Shifa hospital in Gaza City.
...hello? Quit firing rockets at civilians and this won't happen? Are they supposed to keep tolerating, what, 100 rockets in a single day, wasn't it?
Did Murdoch give new marching orders to follow with the Obamatons, or what?
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what I cannot understand is why there is any sympathy left for the Palestinians who despite signing a truce keep lobbing mortars and rockets into Israel.
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what I cannot understand is why there is any sympathy left for the Palestinians who despite signing a truce keep lobbing mortars and rockets into Israel.
We want peace! *fires rocket into civilian area, trying for casualties*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets, mortars*
*Israel finally smacks back*
"Zionist aggressors are slaughtering us, unprovoked!"
;/
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[Taps feet waiting for obligatory excuses/rationalizations from SinS]
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We want peace! *fires rocket into civilian area, trying for casualties*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets, mortars*
*Israel finally smacks back*
"Zionist aggressors are slaughtering us, unprovoked!"
That seems to pretty well sum it up. One article I read was critical of Israel for "violating" the cease fire -- which expired a week ago, and which Hamas wasn't respecting anyway.
So Hamas has vowed "retaliation." Reality check, Hamas ... what Israel did was "retaliation," for your unprovoked missile attacks.
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Being inside anything other than a reinforced concrete bunker is likely to be more dangerous than just walking around outside.
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What kind of safe room do you have? I've seen photos of everything there from double-thick concrete to a bunch of old wornout flak vests stuffed in walls.
Well, a safe room is probably an exaggeration. This is an old Amigur construction house, so the bedrooms are supposed to be convertible into NBC saferooms with ease (by taping the tiny window shut or replacing it by a steel shutter. However, failing that (the bedrooms have ACs and stuff now), we're supposed, according to the instructions, to go into the corridor linking the appartment's rooms together (which has no external windows) and sit on the floor with our heads covered. It's probably safe against shrapnel and stuff like that, and it's not like we can reach the bomb shelter within 45 seconds (it's four floors below).
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It's probably safe against shrapnel and stuff like that, and it's not like we can reach the bomb shelter within 45 seconds (it's four floors below).
Needs remodeling! Add one of these!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phweis.com%2Fimages%2Fprojects%2FSaugetFirePole1.jpg&hash=7379ca00cb3331c5ca8b710aa1c1e1f61bcd18b8)
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Needs remodeling! Add one of these!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phweis.com%2Fimages%2Fprojects%2FSaugetFirePole1.jpg&hash=7379ca00cb3331c5ca8b710aa1c1e1f61bcd18b8)
Multi-functional also !!!
1) Quick route to safety during rocket attack.
2) Stripper Pole when all clear sounded.
=D
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We want peace! *fires rocket into civilian area, trying for casualties*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets, mortars*
*Israel finally smacks back*
"Zionist aggressors are slaughtering us, unprovoked!"
;/
Illustrated:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv403%2Fandros13%2FHowThingsWorkInMiddleEastWars-cropp.jpg&hash=ae422cf7a1316e4389c092d3b74c6196499c45fc)
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We want peace! *fires rocket into civilian area, trying for casualties*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets*
Peace! *fires more rockets, mortars*
*Israel finally smacks back*
"Zionist aggressors are slaughtering us, unprovoked!"
;/
Some days, I find Israel's restraint in handling the Palestinian problem admirable....
Other days (like today) I find it hard to understand....
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While I was away touring Old Jaffa with 2swap , several rockets hit near our town.
Mom&Dad actually heard the explosions and had to deal with phonecalls from worried relatives abroad. Some foreign news-sites have fudged the geography and claimed rockets fell IN Ashdod, so people were understandably concerned.
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Multi-functional also !!!
1) Quick route to safety during rocket attack.
2) Stripper Pole when all clear sounded.
=D
You forgot something: You can also pretend you are Batman! =D :laugh:
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Multi-functional also !!!
1) Quick route to safety during rocket attack.
2) Stripper Pole when all clear sounded.
=D
As long as you remember to put something down over the hole before the dancing commences, anyways - otherwise... =D
Manedwolf and Uncle Bubba, 100% agreement with your assessments of the Hamas vs. IDF situation.
Micro, glad to hear you and yours are doing okay so far.
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Oh, what a surprise...
CAIR Condemns Israeli 'Massacre' in Gaza
Obama urged to speak 'in favor of peace and justice for all parties'
WASHINGTON, Dec. 27 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today condemned Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip that left more than 200 people dead and called the death toll a "massacre carried out using U.S. taxpayer-funded weapons." More than 700 people, including women and children, were injured in the attacks.
SEE: Israeli Strikes Kill 229 in Gaza (Reuters) http://tinyurl.com/9xgjxk
The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said in a statement:
"Despite the public 'green light' given to the Israeli military by the Bush administration, American Muslims join our fellow citizens who respect international law and the sanctity of human life in repudiating this massacre carried out using U.S. taxpayer-funded weapons.
"It must be clear by now that the only future offered to the Palestinian people by the outgoing administration was one of perpetual subjugation and humiliation at the hands of the Israeli occupiers. Unfortunately, our nation's timid response to this tragic episode will only serve to fuel anti-American sentiments in the Muslim world.
"We therefore call on President-elect Obama to demonstrate his commitment to change our nation's current one-sided Mideast policy by speaking out now in favor of peace and justice for all parties to this decades-long conflict.
"We also call on world leaders to take direct action to end Israel's counterproductive and wildly disproportionate attacks and to end the humanitarian siege of Gaza, which led to the recent breakdown of the ceasefire."
CAIR noted that the European Union (EU), Russia, the UN Secretary-General, the Arab League, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), and other international bodies are all urging Israel to end it attacks.
Middle East envoy Tony Blair deplored the "tragic of loss of life," while French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned Israel's "disproportionate use of force."
EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said the Israeli attacks were "inflicting an unacceptable toll on Palestinian civilians and will only worsen the humanitarian crisis as well as complicate the search for a peaceful solution."
CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, has 35 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.
http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-27-2008/0004947113&EDATE= (http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-27-2008/0004947113&EDATE=)
"Despite the public 'green light' given to the Israeli military by the Bush administration, American Muslims join our fellow citizens who respect international law and the sanctity of human life in repudiating this massacre carried out using U.S. taxpayer-funded weapons.
The irony. How's those suicide belts, human shields and putting missiles on top of occupied buildings working out for you, guys?
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We want peace!
(by ridding this area of Israel!)
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Fox has officially gone over to the side of all the rest of the liberal, mewling, appeasing media.
Late Sunday, Israeli aircraft attacked a building in the Jebaliya refugee camp next to Gaza City, killing a 14-month-old baby, Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said. Early Monday, Israeli aircraft bombed the Islamic University and government compound in Gaza City, centers of Hamas power. Witnesses saw fire and smoke at the university, counting six separate airstrikes there just after midnight.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473408,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473408,00.html)
Maybe because, oh, THAT WAS WHERE THEY HAD ROCKET LAUNCHERS SET UP, BOTH PLACES?! Yes, I'm sure they were aiming for the baby. ;/ How about reporting that with phrasing not written seemingly by Al-Jazeera's professional obfuscators, Fox?
Because that's what they do, human shields!
Nice work, Murdoch. So eager to be sure that your network doesn't get locked out of Obama press conferences that you've apparently ordered Fox to be Just Like Them. Now there is no source of nooz that is not mewling tripe.
And MB, dude, can you get your old rifle back or something? You might need it. :P
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Illustrated:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv403%2Fandros13%2FHowThingsWorkInMiddleEastWars-cropp.jpg&hash=ae422cf7a1316e4389c092d3b74c6196499c45fc)
Great pic.
Give it to liberals and ask them if they can "Spot the Terrorist"......
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Yesterday, a state of emergency has been declared in a zone of 20 kilometers from the border.
Furthermore, the potential impact zone of the rockets has been expanded to cover Be'er-Sheva and Yavne, which is 7 kilometers North of me.
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Great pic.
Give it to liberals and ask them if they can "Spot the Terrorist"......
They will likely point out the lady in the blue dress or the child she is holding. ;/
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Yesterday, a state of emergency has been declared in a zone of 20 kilometers from the border.
Furthermore, the potential impact zone of the rockets has been expanded to cover Be'er-Sheva and Yavne, which is 7 kilometers North of me.
And they're going to let all citizens who have served draw a rifle and ammo in case there's reprisals on the ground, right?
I still can't figure out why they surplused all the Galils to be cut up into parts kits. Those should have been stored as simple, idiot-proof rifles to be given to the general population if things really went south in a hurry. What're you supposed to use, someone's grandfather's Mauser?
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And they're going to let all citizens who have served draw a rifle and ammo in case there's reprisals on the ground, right?
Reprisals on the ground? How, precisely?
There is a system of concrete walls and minefields between me and the bad guys, reinforced by multiple infantry brigades, armor, artillery, and the IAF.
When a single person gets past the walls to be shot by border patrol troops, it makes news and heads roll.
Besides, centerfire rifles are prohibited for civilian ownership.
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Reprisals on the ground? How, precisely?
There is a system of concrete walls and minefields between me and the bad guys, reinforced by multiple infantry brigades, armor, artillery, and the IAF.
When a single person gets past the walls to be shot by border patrol troops, it makes news and heads roll.
Besides, centerfire rifles are prohibited for civilian ownership.
Wah? No centrefire rifles at all? And I thought I had it bad =(.
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Reprisals on the ground? How, precisely?
There is a system of concrete walls and minefields between me and the bad guys, reinforced by multiple infantry brigades, armor, artillery, and the IAF.
When a single person gets past the walls to be shot by border patrol troops, it makes news and heads roll.
I want some of that sort of border control for OUR borders.
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Reprisals on the ground? How, precisely?
There is a system of concrete walls and minefields between me and the bad guys, reinforced by multiple infantry brigades, armor, artillery, and the IAF.
When a single person gets past the walls to be shot by border patrol troops, it makes news and heads roll.
Besides, centerfire rifles are prohibited for civilian ownership.
Um. The people who are already IN Israel? The ones who likely have some AKs stashed somewhere? Or who might do the Killdozer thing again, or run into a cafe with a bulging jacket, screaming "allah akbar"?
Hate to tell you, but it's pretty likely you've got a number of sleeper cells among your population!
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Um. The people who are already IN Israel? The ones who likely have some AKs stashed somewhere? Or who might do the Killdozer thing again, or run into a cafe with a bulging jacket, screaming "allah akbar"?
Hate to tell you, but it's pretty likely you've got a number of sleeper cells among your population!
1. The bulging-jacket thing already ended.
2. The govenrment doesn't think that civilian guns are good - in part because they might end up in Muslim hands and in part because they mistrust even the Jewish population. If they thought otherwise, the threat of normal crime (Which is actually far bigger than the threat of terrorism and growing) would be enough.
Note one of the few people in Israel who thinks more guns in civilian hands is better is actually a non-Jew, Ayoob Kara. I'll be voting for him, too!
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1. The bulging-jacket thing already ended.
2. The govenrment doesn't think that civilian guns are good - in part because they might end up in Muslim hands and in part because they mistrust even the Jewish population. If they thought otherwise, the threat of normal crime (Which is actually far bigger than the threat of terrorism and growing) would be enough.
Note one of the few people in Israel who thinks more guns in civilian hands is better is actually a non-Jew, Ayoob Kara. I'll be voting for him, too!
You really think they're not going to go right back to suicide bombing?
And...um. The Islamic terrorists have an endless supply of AKs and RPG-7s. They don't need 5.56 weapons. I'm sure the government doesn't realize that, of course.
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You really think they're not going to go right back to suicide bombing?
Suicide bombing requires bombmakers to recruit the idiot and to prepare his vest. It mostly ended when we left Gaza and got effective border security.
And...um. The Islamic terrorists have an endless supply of AKs and RPG-7s. They don't need 5.56 weapons. I'm sure the government doesn't realize that, of course.
1. Hamas and Hez are pretty happy with stolen M16's, too.
2. THE GOVERNMENT HERE IS RETARDED. Please just accept that.
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Suicide bombing requires bombmakers to recruit the idiot and to prepare his vest. It mostly ended when we left Gaza and got effective border security.
1. Hamas and Hez are pretty happy with stolen M16's, too.
2. THE GOVERNMENT HERE IS RETARDED. Please just accept that.
Yep, lots of the pictures over the years have been Palestinians carrying M16's. Must be an honor thing, carrying a captured weapon like counting coup or something. Wasn't there also a shipment of M16s that ended up there for some reason? I'm trying and failing to remember the circumstances.
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A lot of them get stolen from the Army. Also, we used to allow shipments of weapons to factions that we approve of (FATAH, basically), but they end up being slaughtered and HAMAS ends up capturing their gear.
Captured weapons are rare due to our casualties being sort of low. :D
But again, several hundred guns a year get stolen, of course. :D
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I am just shaking my head at the UN, the Europansies (not people from Europe, but the leaders) and the nooz calling it a "humanitarian crisis" as the Palis CONTINUE to fire rockets into Israel.
At some point, you get tired of being shoved and have to just turn and punch the shove-er as hard as you can. That's what's happening right now. And they brought it on themselves.
Israeli leaders have said the operation might be long. "The goal of our current operation is to ... create a situation where Israeli civilians living in the south of the country no longer have to live in constant fear of a Hamas rocket attack," government spokesman Mark Regev said Monday.
About. Freaking. TIME.
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IDF: Hamas' military wing intact
Army preparing for next stage of Operation Cast Lead; senior officers support launching of ground incursion in Gaza to substantiate Israeli deterrence, say Hamas still capable of carrying out extensive ops
Hanan Greenberg
Despite the Israeli Air Force's massive strikes throughout the Gaza Strip in the last three days, military sources estimated Monday that Hamas' military wing was still intact and that it was capable of carrying out substantial operations in the near future.
Meanwhile, the IDF was preparing Monday for the next stage of Operation Cast Lead, which will see ground forces entering the Strip.
Large forces and heavy machinery are already stationed near Gaza, and the IDF is holding deliberations aimed at determining the nature of the ground incursion. The army is inclined to broaden the operation in order to boost Israel's deterrence vis-Ã -vis Hamas.
The forces on the ground have already been informed of the missions they will likely be ordered to carry out, including maneuvers aimed at locating and neutralizing terror infrastructure and targeting Hamas forces.
The army continues to monitor the developments in other fronts, including the West bank and southern Lebanon. At present the situation in the West Bank is relatively quiet, excluding several minor incidents and no escalation has been registered on the northern border.
However, the security forces are preparing for the possibility that Palestinian factions might attempt to launch rockets at Israel as a sign of solidarity with Hamas, or that Hizbullah might launch terror attacks via groups in the area.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3646718,00.html
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http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=17867
Another report mentions 2 arabs stabing several people at a service call and a passerby shooting one.
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As far as non Israelis within Israel. Or non Jew.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129080
Family from Gaza maybe?
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Free Gaza boat will try to reach Strip
Dec. 29, 2008
Associated Press , THE JERUSALEM POST
A group of international activists said it would defy an Israeli blockade and send a boat with medical supplies to Gaza from Cyprus.
Free Gaza Group spokeswoman Caoimhe Butterly said their 20-meter yacht Dignity would leave Larnaca port around 5 p.m. (1400GMT) Monday with 3.5 tons of donated supplies.
She said the yacht would carry 16 passengers, including former US Congresswoman Cynthia Mckinney, Cypriot lawmaker and doctor Eleni Theocharous and activists from Britain, Australia, Ireland and Tunisia.
Butterly said the urgent need to deliver aid requested by Gaza authorities "outweighs the risks" of entering a war zone.
Free Gaza has successfully made five deliveries of aid by boat from Larnaca to Gaza over the past four months.
Go stay with your new friends, crazyhead. Don't come back.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiusbvision.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F07%2Fcynthia_mckinney.jpg&hash=daa5de67f286c32985961b26cc38d060f5b5036a)
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Is it wrong to hope for what I'm hoping for?
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Is it wrong to hope for what I'm hoping for?
Yes.
Pervert.
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The operation in Gaza started as of today. The Palestinians are firing their rockets in return, and the army instructed everybody all the way up to Ashdod to stay indoors. Nobody really cares about the warning, and people keep with their daily shopping and so forth.
I do believe that this needs correcting. The Palestinians are firing their rockets in return,
Actually the Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel for the past 8 years, and even the MSM says so.
After 8 years the Israelies are firing back.
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2. The govenrment doesn't think that civilian guns are good - in part because they might end up in Muslim hands and in part because they mistrust even the Jewish population. If they thought otherwise, the threat of normal crime (Which is actually far bigger than the threat of terrorism and growing) would be enough.
Note one of the few people in Israel who thinks more guns in civilian hands is better is actually a non-Jew, Ayoob Kara. I'll be voting for him, too!
Sorry MB, lot of Americans think Israel is kinda a Switzerland in the desert. They kinda forget the Israel is a pretty socialist place. The people are peasants, and not to be trusted with too much responsibility. Firearms? Heaven forbid the slaves be allowed to own weapons! More welfare and tax breaks for the haredim! Less capitalism, more taxes!
I'm not saying that I wouldn't prefer to stay with the Izzies over any of their neighbors. But people forget, don't know or heavily overlook the extremely socialistic government.
Have fun with the lady friend! Stay safe, man. We need ya over here in the States, preferably PA.
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In contrast I would believe this story alone holds the right evidence for the legal residents to be able to own whatever they can handle.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129105
Monday Attacks: Stabbing, Rock Attacks, Firebombs
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Is it wrong to hope for what I'm hoping for?
Not if what you're hoping for is what I'm hoping for.
I am thoroughly disgusted by the international response. Hamas lobs mortars and rockets into Israel on a regular basis for days and weeks and nobody says "Boo." Israel finally says, "Enough, already," and takes out a bunch of primarily military targets ... and the entire world suddenly wakes up and says, "Oh, this is terrible."
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A rocket hit within my town tonight, killing a lady in her car and apparently injuring some people.
My parents have freaked out completely and instructed me and 2swap to stay indoors for the duration. We'll see.
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A rocket hit within my town tonight, killing a lady in her car and apparently injuring some people.
My parents have freaked out completely and instructed me and 2swap to stay indoors for the duration. We'll see.
Anyone want to bet that that doesn't make the nooz. But Pali woman gets nicked by shrapnel from Israeli bomb when she was holding a mortar tube, will get front page above the fold....
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Anyone want to bet that that doesn't make the nooz. But Pali woman gets nicked by shrapnel from Israeli bomb when she was holding a mortar tube, will get front page above the fold....
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/29/news/ML-Israel-Rocket-Strike.php
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiusbvision.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F07%2Fcynthia_mckinney.jpg&hash=daa5de67f286c32985961b26cc38d060f5b5036a)
"I bring the crazy !!!"
(as if there isn't more then enough in Gaza already......)
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GAZA (Reuters) - Israel rejected any truce with Hamas Islamists on Tuesday and said it was ready for "long weeks of action" on a fourth day of the fiercest air offensive in the Gaza Strip in decades.
Yes, they were asking for truce while still firing Grads, now.
Did Israel finally realize that their "truce" is offered with one hand out and a knife hidden in the other, and is just an excuse to reload?
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Yes, they were asking for truce while still firing Grads, now.
Did Israel finally realize that their "truce" is offered with one hand out and a knife hidden in the other, and is just an excuse to reload?
Election fever. Ollmert needs to pretend to be at least as smart as Bibi.
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Hamas & those who voted for them need to reap the whirlwind.
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what a depressing thread this is.
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Election fever. Ollmert needs to pretend to be at least as smart as Bibi.
What does that mean?
This is long overdue. I just think they're still not using enough force, since they're now sending Grads further into Israel. If they have to level the whole damn place, so be it. Warn the people there to get out, then level it. Israel has thermobarics, don't they?
When you're dealing with savages whose entire system of reward/punishment is that of five year old children, the only thing they'll understand is that their actions have consequences that hurt, every single time.
And why do people in the modern age keep making the mistake of thinking that "limited warfare" ever does anything but cause you to lose? Hamas is deliberately targeting civilian populations with unguided rockets, and then screaming about their installations being attacked with pinpoint munitions. That has to end. Now.
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What does that mean?
That he's not motivated by the desire to solve the problem, but by a desire to look good for the cameras, so his party can make good at the polls in two months.
That's not the way to go about it.
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I hope, if they do a ground operation, that it's well coordinated and they've learned from US forces how to deal with insurgent fire.
In other words, if you see a rocket launch, paint the launch point with a laser, and a Hellfire from an orbiting drone nails it in seconds. Something on the order of that.
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Gotta hand it to the muslims, they sure do know how to work the media. On the other hand, poke a bear in the butt with a stick enough times, he will turn around and kick your ass. Some people just don't understand this....chris3
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Air raid, once more. Apparently it hit really nearby, we could hear the windows shaking in my house.
However, I will disappoint you: WE ARE STILL HERE.
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Wow, only 23 miles ;/
We are 25 miles (by road at least) from the nearest town with a grocery store.
Keep safe, my friends. But I don't know how =| ? Even if you stay in your house, a bomb could hit you dead on =(
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Air raid, once more. Apparently it hit really nearby, we could hear the windows shaking in my house.
However, I will disappoint you: WE ARE STILL HERE.
It's funny; almost no one here (in the US) can even imagine what that would be like (myself included); windows shaking from bombs being dropped in the distance.
One of my coworkers father in law is from the UK... He still remembers lying awake in bed, listening to the bombs being dropped on London during WWII, praying that their house wouldn't get hit.
It's almost surreal. People here live in relative peace.
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I am becoming scared. I did joke that this was the risk compensation for not getting outside today' when we left micro's room. But this was really loud. We'll see what the news report.
On the one hand, I should probably do my family a favor and get on the next flight to Germany, but on the other hand, it would feel deeply wrong to leave him alone in this danger.
I know that the chance of something really happening to us is slim, but I am only human and thus commit the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events.
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I am becoming scared. I did joke that this was the risk compensation for not getting outside today' when we left micro's room. But this was really loud. We'll see what the news report.
On the one hand, I should probably do my family a favor and get on the next flight to Germany, but on the other hand, it would feel deeply wrong to leave him alone in this danger.
I know that the chance of something really happening to us is slim, but I am only human and thus commit the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events.
I would stay inside. The report is that they're firing Grads at you guys now, which have about a 20kg warhead, high explosive. They're a lot more powerful and have much longer range than the Katyushas they like.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stratfor.com%2Fmmf%2F103367%2Ftwo_column&hash=4422f3df6ae7bea4c58cca04a1bde0f5d11b3575)
Wonder how many came from Iran...
Also, what the hell...
Israel is considering suspending its offensive on Hamas-ruled Gaza to give Hamas militants an opening to halt rocket fire on Israel, but the threat of a ground offensive remains if the cease-fire does not hold, an Israeli defense official said Tuesday.
Are they that stupid? They'll just reload and start again.
Here's an idea. Offer a ceasefire if they stop firing rockets immediately. Then have a ceasefire. With the caveat that if ONE more rocket comes over, the Strip gets leveled.
That's what I'd do.
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According to the government, they may have some Iranian Fajr-3 missiles in stock, too.
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Israeli election cycle is nearing? I see a lot of news concerning candidates.
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Israeli election cycle is nearing? I see a lot of news concerning candidates.
Our political system is not like yours, in that we often have elections before the four-year term runs out. This is such an occasion.
We are having an election in February.
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According to the government, they may have some Iranian Fajr-3 missiles in stock, too.
Hopefully nothing bigger. What happened to those lasers we gave you? Weren't they going to try those in field tests? Seems like this would be a good time to try them out.
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Hopefully nothing bigger. What happened to those lasers we gave you? Weren't they going to try those in field tests? Seems like this would be a good time to try them out.
THey're permanently stuck in developement.
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THey're permanently stuck in developement.
But they already successfully shot down lots of Katyushas! Why not deploy them?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F0%2F06%2FTHEL-ACTD.jpg&hash=87c842a94982941371544da27bf7349e948119a7)
Put the things on buildings in the border cities, manned and ready to ping down every rocket that comes over?
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Here's an idea. Offer a ceasefire if they stop firing rockets immediately. Then have a ceasefire. With the caveat that if ONE more rocket comes over, the Strip gets leveled.
That's what I'd do.
Same here. Barbarians only understand force and violence. I'm surprised that Israel hasn't violenced the *expletive deleted*it out of the Gaza Strip already. That requires the patience of a saint.
Micro & 2swap, take care.
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But they already successfully shot down lots of Katyushas! Why not deploy them?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F0%2F06%2FTHEL-ACTD.jpg&hash=87c842a94982941371544da27bf7349e948119a7)
Put the things on buildings in the border cities, manned and ready to ping down every rocket that comes over?
They are 'in the works'. Welcome to ISraeli government bureaucracy.
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They are 'in the works'. Welcome to ISraeli government bureaucracy.
Ugh. That would be a psychological deterrent, too. "It's no good to fire rockets, the Israelis have laser beams like the American Star Wars, they destroy every one, none hit the ground".
Makes too much sense, I guess.
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Ugh. That would be a psychological deterrent, too. "It's no good to fire rockets, the Israelis have laser beams like the American Star Wars, they destroy every one, none hit the ground".
Makes too much sense, I guess.
The contractors are just not done miliking it for every taxpayer dime they can get yet. Wait a few more years.
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For those who bemoan the "poor innocent Pali's" imagine what the response would be if Canada started lobbing missiles into Detroit (wait, bad analogy, as that would be "urban renewal" ;/) or Mexico flinging them into El Paso or San Diego.
IIRC, we sent a buttload of troops into Mexico back in 1916 on a Punitive Expedition after one of their bad guys attacked and burned a town in New Mexico. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition
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The contractors are just not done miliking it for every taxpayer dime they can get yet. Wait a few more years.
It isn't Grumman's fault. They finished and delivered it.
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It isn't Grumman's fault. They finished and delivered it.
I mean, Israeli contractors.
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Youtube, like google, yahoo, MS & the MSM is capitulating to the savages of the world by allowing the savages to dictate what shall be deemed acceptable.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/48462
What YouTube Doesn’t Want You to See
Noah Pollak - 12.30.2008 - 11:00 AM
Yesterday, the IDF did something innovative: it opened a channel on YouTube and posted videos to it that help explain why Israel is fighting Hamas. The site hosted about a dozen videos showing things like Israeli humanitarian aid deliveries to Gaza and airstrikes that prevented terrorists from firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
This was apparently too much for YouTube, which moments ago removed several videos from the IDF’s channel, including the most-watched video, which showed a group of Hamas goons being blown up in an air strike as they loaded Katyusha missiles onto a truck. The point of such footage, as if it needed to be said, is not to revel in violence — it is to show the legitimacy of Israeli self-defense.
The rank double-standard that YouTube has applied to Israel is disturbing. YouTube hosts all manner of similar footage — much of it far more gory than the grainy infrared images posted by the IDF — of U.S. air strikes. Why is YouTube capitulating to those who do not wish for Israel to be able to tell its side of the story?
UPDATE: the IDF just uploaded a new video to its channel, this one of Hamas’ headquarters going out of business. Let’s see how long it lasts. Click here to watch.
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Youtube, like google, yahoo, MS & the MSM is capitulating to the savages of the world by allowing the savages to dictate what shall be deemed acceptable.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/48462
What YouTube Doesn’t Want You to See
Noah Pollak - 12.30.2008 - 11:00 AM
Yesterday, the IDF did something innovative: it opened a channel on YouTube and posted videos to it that help explain why Israel is fighting Hamas. The site hosted about a dozen videos showing things like Israeli humanitarian aid deliveries to Gaza and airstrikes that prevented terrorists from firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
This was apparently too much for YouTube, which moments ago removed several videos from the IDF’s channel, including the most-watched video, which showed a group of Hamas goons being blown up in an air strike as they loaded Katyusha missiles onto a truck. The point of such footage, as if it needed to be said, is not to revel in violence — it is to show the legitimacy of Israeli self-defense.
The rank double-standard that YouTube has applied to Israel is disturbing. YouTube hosts all manner of similar footage — much of it far more gory than the grainy infrared images posted by the IDF — of U.S. air strikes. Why is YouTube capitulating to those who do not wish for Israel to be able to tell its side of the story?
UPDATE: the IDF just uploaded a new video to its channel, this one of Hamas’ headquarters going out of business. Let’s see how long it lasts. Click here to watch.
YouTube also hosts plenty of terrorist recruiting videos and Islamist propaganda, including footage of US vehicles being blown up, accompanied by Islamic music and chants.
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Where the heck is ShootinStudent? I have been waiting to hear how this is all Israel's fault, for daring to be in the path of these missiles that these peace loving people are shooting into what should be open desert for fun!
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Yes, they were asking for truce while still firing Grads, now.
Did Israel finally realize that their "truce" is offered with one hand out and a knife hidden in the other, and is just an excuse to reload?
What do you mean, "hidden"?
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On the one hand, I should probably do my family a favor and get on the next flight to Germany, but on the other hand, it would feel deeply wrong to leave him alone in this danger.
I know that the chance of something really happening to us is slim, but I am only human and thus commit the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events.
So take him with you. Except he won't want to leave his parents in harm's way.
"... the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events."? Listen up ... it doesn't make the slightest difference what the statistical probability is (or "was"), if a rocket or mortar lands in your bunker/bedroom, it is rather difficult to misjudge the importance of the event.
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So take him with you. Except he won't want to leave his parents in harm's way.
"... the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events."? Listen up ... it doesn't make the slightest difference what the statistical probability is (or "was"), if a rocket or mortar lands in your bunker/bedroom, it is rather difficult to misjudge the importance of the event.
So get the relatives to go on a vacation.
Look. If that crap was going on where I live, my country trusts me enough to let me have firearms, the ability to defend home and homeland, so I'd feel obligated to repay that trust by standing by to defend and put down attackers if the authorities were overwhelmed. I have stuff that could put holes through light armor, and it's legal.
But they don't trust you to have any firearms. So you have no obligation. Take a vacation.
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"... the statistic fallacy of misjudging the importance of seldom events."? Listen up ... it doesn't make the slightest difference what the statistical probability is (or "was"), if a rocket or mortar lands in your bunker/bedroom, it is rather difficult to misjudge the importance of the event.
2swap is next to me and asks what do you do to prepare against an alligator assault.
Just one alligator gnawing on your leg is certainly enough.
As of my view, if 2swap feels she should leave, I will not take it personally in any way ,shape, or form, and I will understand it. However, it is my view that though the rockets are obviously quite a disturbing event, they're probably less dangerous than the local traffic.
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In other words, if you see a rocket launch, paint the launch point with a laser, and a Hellfire from an orbiting drone nails it in seconds. Something on the order of that.
I think that's too expensive, and somebody might get hurt watching for rockets and painting targets. And I'd be worried that somebody would figure out how to shoot down a drone.
My solution: Get Raytheon and General Dynamics in a conference call. Order up an automated Firefinder/MLRS combo. A rocket launches, the radar backtracks it, a siren sounds to get any bystanders out of the backblast area, and the terrorist launch site eats a truckload of HE. I would be surprised if such a system wasn't already in inventory, so they'd just have to re-paint it and fedex it to Ashod.
Next, link multiple launchers. After the fifth or so terrorist shot, two launchers unload simultaneously. The tenth terrorist? Four launchers.
Link up Paladins. Link up all the missile boats that aren't having to scrape idiot activist guts off the paint. Hook the SLBM systems up if you want. Generally make it clear that counter battery fire will be incoming before the iranian-made, syrian-smuggled bottle rocket disappears from view, and the IDF will neither know nor care that it happened until some unlucky private has to lug reloads to the launcher.
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I think that's too expensive, and somebody might get hurt watching for rockets and painting targets. And I'd be worried that somebody would figure out how to shoot down a drone.
My solution: Get Raytheon and General Dynamics in a conference call. Order up an automated Firefinder/MLRS combo. A rocket launches, the radar backtracks it, a siren sounds to get any bystanders out of the backblast area, and the terrorist launch site eats a truckload of HE. I would be surprised if such a system wasn't already in inventory, so they'd just have to re-paint it and fedex it to Ashod.
Next, link multiple launchers. After the fifth or so terrorist shot, two launchers unload simultaneously. The tenth terrorist? Four launchers.
Link up Paladins. Link up all the missile boats that aren't having to scrape idiot activist guts off the paint. Hook the SLBM systems up if you want. Generally make it clear that counter battery fire will be incoming before the iranian-made, syrian-smuggled bottle rocket disappears from view, and the IDF will neither know nor care that it happened until some unlucky private has to lug reloads to the launcher.
If it was an enemy with any respect for life, that would work, but they want to get a clear view of the launch site before hitting it.
Hamas likes to put them on top of occupied schools full of children as human shields.
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Hamas likes to put them on top of occupied schools full of children as human shields.
And we firebombed Dresden and vaporized two Japanese cities because our enemies had no respect for human lives. Sometimes the good guys have to resort to horrible things to stop the carnage right now.
If I could think of a quick and easy way to euthanize hamas, I'd be all for it. It sucks all around, but they have to get the point across somehow.
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Ladies and gents:
http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk
The IDF Youtube channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTBAr7tq4rc
A Hamas government office going up.
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Just heard another one drop. No idea yet of casualties, and certainly not where. I have heard detailed rumors about the location of the previous rocket's drop, but for obvious reasons I will not publish that in an open forum.
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People are being weird. Some very silly, some very kind. There are some people who refuse to come out of bomb shelters, others who left the city entirely.
Families in the North are hosting Southerners for free. Multiple companies are offering discounts and benefits for Southerners.At least one bodybuilding chain has offered all Southerners free access to its facilities all across the country, and another one - to the one in Ashdod that's also a bomb shelter.
This is a replay of Lebanon II, where people offered shelter and discounts of various sorts for people fleeing the North. Many of them were hosted by charitable people in Ashdod, and now we're seeing the reverse.
Some private parties (political and otherwise) are funding billboards voicing their support of the armed forces and the people in the South.
[I mean the terms 'South' and 'North' as they are meant in Israel, of course]
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The question is, which one of us is in greater danger right now ???
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=17094.0
You all, with a small random chance of being hit by a missle, or us with a small chance of the entire region being buried under billions of tons of ash ...? =|
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The question is, which one of us is in greater danger right now ???
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=17094.0
You all, with a small random chance of being hit by a missle, or us with a small chance of the entire region being buried under billions of tons of ash ...? =|
I don't personally think it's going to blow, or the rest of the park would be showing activity around the rim, too. I do think there will be an energetic event, though.
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I don't personally think it's going to blow, or the rest of the park would be showing activity around the rim, too. I do think there will be an energetic event, though.
Odds are in favor of a smaller "normal" volcanic event. However, the Yellowstone hotspot is too big to be vented or get any real relief from the pressure and vast energy in that magma chamber by smaller events.
And there's always the chance that the seismic activity from one small eruption can weaken the crust and faults over the entire chamber and the eruption could get successively bigger. Still a long-shot.
However, I wonder how you calculate the person-odds of such a thing.
It's like the airline industry comparing itself to travel-miles vs. fatalities, where they beat cars by a factor of ten or whatever...
However you compare the airlines to cars in person-hours, it's only a factor of two safer, etc.
I think Micro is right that traffic fatalities are probably comparable to the missile attacks for now. However, traffic can be avoided, if you're willing to sit at home. Whereas with the missiles, sitting at home, or moving about, probably makes no difference as long as you're not moving out of the average impact area.
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Odds are in favor of a smaller "normal" volcanic event. However, the Yellowstone hotspot is too big to be vented or get any real relief from the pressure and vast energy in that magma chamber by smaller events.
And there's always the chance that the seismic activity from one small eruption can weaken the crust and faults over the entire chamber and the eruption could get successively bigger. Still a long-shot.
However, I wonder how you calculate the person-odds of such a thing.
It's like the airline industry comparing itself to travel-miles vs. fatalities, where they beat cars by a factor of ten or whatever...
However you compare the airlines to cars in person-hours, it's only a factor of two safer, etc.
I think Micro is right that traffic fatalities are probably comparable to the missile attacks for now. However, traffic can be avoided, if you're willing to sit at home. Whereas with the missiles, sitting at home, or moving about, probably makes no difference as long as you're not moving out of the average impact area.
Mary Bay was created by a hydrothermal explosion. I'd put the odds on that sort of thing, which would be a "sucks to be on top of it" event and a stratospheric plume of steam. Extremely hot steam.
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Congrats Micro, your town made the Trib......
'Now we are in the line of fire'
Hamas strikes deep as Israel presses its campaign in Gaza
By Joel Greenberg | Tribune correspondent
1:28 AM CST, December 31, 2008
ASHDOD, Israel — As hundreds of mourners walked back from the fresh grave of Irit Sheetrit, buried here Tuesday after she was killed in a Palestinian rocket strike from Gaza, a loudspeaker warning urged the crowd to disperse.
It was a precaution in case of another rocket attack.
This port city of 200,000 some 20 miles from the Gaza Strip found itself overnight on the front line after a rocket landed in a downtown park, killing Sheetrit as she took cover in a bus shelter. She was one of three Israelis killed in rocket and mortar strikes from Gaza on Monday.
The Israeli offensive against Hamas in Gaza, which has killed more than 380 Palestinians and wounded hundreds more, has also shown that more than half a million people in southern Israel are in rocket range, with Gaza militants striking deeper into the country than ever before.
On Tuesday a rocket reached Beersheba, 28 miles from the Gaza border, slamming into an empty kindergarten.
In Ashdod, people were absorbing the new reality.
"Now we are in the line of fire," said Brigitte Dukhan, a friend of Sheetrit, as she lingered in the cemetery after the funeral. "We wanted to believe that it wouldn't reach us."
At the bus shelter, which was peppered with shrapnel, someone had placed flowers and candles on the bench where Sheetrit, a 39-year-old mother of four, was mortally wounded as she huddled with her sister as a warning siren went off.
The two women had gotten out of a car to take cover when the warning sounded, but the rocket, packed with ball-bearings to inflict greater injury, exploded less than 50 feet behind them.
Although the Gaza offensive has made their city a more dangerous place, people in Ashdod voiced strong support for the operation, launched after a truce expired and militants stepped up rocket fire at Israeli border communities.
"The army should go in, hit hard and clean the place out, and that will bring calm for a few years," said Aryeh Barda, who had come to see where the rocket had landed. "Hamas brought it upon themselves. They don't care about their own people."
Eli Benita said that in his view, "Arabs only understand force," but he added that he was upset by news reports about five Palestinian sisters who died Sunday night in the Israeli assault.
The girls, aged 4 to 17, were killed as they slept when an Israeli missile strike on a mosque in the Jabaliya refugee camp caused a wall to collapse on their asbestos-roofed home. The Israeli army said that the mosque was a meeting place for Hamas activists and that a group of gunmen were inside when the structure was hit.
The intense Israeli airstrikes on targets in densely populated areas have caused dozens of civilian deaths in Gaza. Ten miles north in Ashkelon, an Israeli city by the sea that has also come into Palestinian rocket range, Moshe Elkayam, a municipal worker, said his community faced a similar threat.
"If one of those rockets would hit a school full of children, many could be killed," he said. "For years they have been firing at towns here, day and night. No country in the world could accept that."
Traffic was light in Ashkelon, and a shopping mall was closed as many people stayed home because of the continuing rocket threat.
Schools remained closed, and Elkayam said he was keeping his two youngest children in a bomb shelter, which he had outfitted with a TV and DVD player to keep them occupied. At night, he said, the whole family slept in the shelter.
The hardship is a far cry from conditions in Gaza, where round-the-clock Israeli bombardments have caused extensive destruction and where residents are coping with cutoffs of power and dwindling fuel supplies. Yet life for many Israelis living in cities once considered distant from the fighting is now fraught with a new anxiety.
Out walking his dog on an Ashkelon street, Yoel Levy said it would be a quick stroll and he would keep his eyes open for cover in case a siren went off. In Ashkelon there are usually 30 seconds to find shelter before the rockets land. In Ashdod there are 45.
What did Levy think of the Gaza offensive?
"What interests me is the bottom line," he said. "We want this to end, with quiet for us and for them." (Scout's comment: Until the Pali's get this, it will not end.)
Overhead, Israeli jets streaked south, toward another bombing run in Gaza. Levy hurried off with his dog, and as the sun lowered over the Mediterranean, a distant siren sounded, followed by a muffled boom. Somewhere, another rocket had landed.
Surprisingly good and not the least bit "Those Poor benighted Pali's"....
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I've met a former FATAH fighter once. He made FAR more sense to me than the average leftohippie.
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Is it wrong to hope for what I'm hoping for?
Are you hoping for a Harpoon or 2 to 'accidently' get lit off, and happen to be pointed at their ship, by any chance?
'Coz so am I. =D
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According to the government, they may have some Iranian Fajr-3 missiles in stock, too.
It's a pity you guys don't have that counter-battery radar system installed..... backtrace the inbound rockets and just pound the living *expletive deleted*it out of the point of origin with artillery. If they whine about civilian casualties, too bad.
Tell 'em "Stop killing our civvies and we'll stop killing yours. "
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Are you hoping for a Harpoon or 2 to 'accidently' get lit off, and happen to be pointed at their ship, by any chance?
'Coz so am I. =D
Yep...
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3 more rockets just fell here.
Two nearby, one elsewhere. Family chased us down into the stairway, but remained upstairs themselves. 2swap comports herself admirably under fire.
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Keep hanging in there, Micro and 2swap. Keep your heads down.
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The news say only two rockets hit near us. Maybe I misheard it. One fell in a kibbutz dining hall near our town (none injured), and one hit a house in Ashdod. 3 people lightly injured.
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Two more rockets just fell here. The neighbor downstairs - the House Comittee lady - is even now ranting at my Mom for not going down to the bomb shelter .
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About 2 hours ago, a radio report said that Israeli tanks and infantry were on the move into Gaza.
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About 2 hours ago, a radio report said that Israeli tanks and infantry were on the move into Gaza.
Apparently they already invaded.
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What are infantry going to do, besides run into booby traps?
There's already reports that Hamas seems to be setting up traps, probably even in buildings occupied by Palis.
As their spokesperson even said, they embrace death as the West embraces life.
They should have just pounded harder from the air, I think.
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They should have just pounded harder from the air, I think.
The general public, the opposition politicians, and the Army generals all wanted a ground invasion.
I'm not sure what good it will do, but there you have it.
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The general public, the opposition politicians, and the Army generals all wanted a ground invasion.
I'm not sure what good it will do, but there you have it.
When you are fighting an enemy so evil that they will happily set up a tripwire in a kindergarten and use children as the bait, I'm not sure what good it will do, either.
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Oh, yeah, and don't bother with CNN. The person they have reporting is Christiane "I won't admit I converted to Islam yet" Amanpour, doing her usual shtick about how amazing Muslims are and how mean the Christians and Joooz are being, and how this attack on "the dense civilian areas of Gaza" is all out of proportion with a few rockets.
She's the one who did that reprehensible "Holy Warriors" series. That did its best to show how Islamic terrorists were no worse than evil bad nasty Jewish and Christian "violent" people that there were just as many of. ;/
I'm surprised she's not wearing her hijab she loves to wear.
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Gaza is what - 2 miles by 10 miles ?
Why can't they just line up a bunch of D-10 bulldozers and start from one end to the other ?
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There is some doubt that the "truck being loaded with Grad rockets" was, in fact, being loaded with Grad rockets - which is why the video may have been taken down:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm
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There is some doubt that the "truck being loaded with Grad rockets" was, in fact, being loaded with Grad rockets - which is why the video may have been taken down:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm
Oxygen clinders. Right.
And the site appears to have been used to store weapons. If I saw an NV closeup of cylindrical objects being loaded on a truck from a site used to store weapons, I'd hit it too.
One of the "apartment buildings" they hit had a hell of a lot of secondary explosions, too. BBC is just a little slanted toward "that" side.
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Oh, yeah, and don't bother with CNN. The person they have reporting is Christiane "I won't admit I converted to Islam yet" Amanpour, doing her usual shtick about how amazing Muslims are and how mean the Christians and Joooz are being, and how this attack on "the dense civilian areas of Gaza" is all out of proportion with a few rockets.
She's the one who did that reprehensible "Holy Warriors" series. That did its best to show how Islamic terrorists were no worse than evil bad nasty Jewish and Christian "violent" people that there were just as many of. ;/
I'm surprised she's not wearing her hijab she loves to wear.
To be fair, I cannot think of a similar Muslim siege that was as bad as what the First Crusade did to Jerusalem. That said, I cant think of a siege that was as bad as what Hulagu did to Baghdad, and he was a buddhist so I dont know what point I am making.
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To be fair, I cannot think of a similar Muslim siege that was as bad as what the First Crusade did to Jerusalem. That said, I cant think of a siege that was as bad as what Hulagu did to Baghdad, and he was a buddhist so I dont know what point I am making.
Okay.
Why are you bringing up ancient history? How about now?
How about your Underground, our WTC?
NOW. THIS TIME.
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And the site appears to have been used to store weapons. If I saw an NV closeup of cylindrical objects being loaded on a truck from a site used to store weapons, I'd hit it too.
Bad luck for those who live there, then. And anyone who lives next to a plumbers.
=|
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Bad luck for those who live there, then. And anyone who lives next to a plumbers.
=|
Then maybe they shouldn't allow or outright support rockets being launched from their neighborhoods.
Also, what the hell?
The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.
The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.
Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.
Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.
Al-BBC?
Why is so much of the world media outright groveling to the bad guys? I don't understand.
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Okay.
Why are you bringing up ancient history? How about now?
How about your Underground, our WTC?
NOW. THIS TIME.
We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better). About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.
The shooting stopped when people started talking to each other, and - with one or two exceptions - the peace has held for the past fifteen years. Ironically though both sides needed to realise that they could not win as things were going - which, in both cases, does not appear to be the case between the Israelis and Hamas.
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We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better). About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.
The shooting stopped when people started talking to each other, and - with one or two exceptions - the peace has held for the past fifteen years. Ironically though both sides needed to realise that they could not win as things were going - which, in both cases, does not appear to be the case between the Israelis and Hamas.
Apples and oranges. The IRA people were not suicidal, and wanted to live.
Islamist terorrists are only too happy to die. It's a holy war from a twisted death-cult version of the religion.
"Today, you are fighting the army of Allah. You are fighting against peoples for whom death for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of honor and glory, is preferable to life....How can you possibly defeat us? -Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas"
We should have killed all those who offend the Prophet, and instead, here we are, protesting peacefully. Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, speaking about the offensive cartoons printed in Europe, February 9, 2006
You think you can reason with that?
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Then maybe they shouldn't allow or outright support rockets being launched from their neighborhoods.
Ah, the old collective guilt way of thinking.
Also, what the hell?
Al-BBC?
Why is so much of the world media outright groveling to the bad guys? I don't understand.
The story actually comes from a report by B'Tselem, and it is odd to hear you suggest that news media are "outright grovelling" by not believing everything the IDF says. As it is, they are (at least in the UK) bending over backwards to present the Israeli point of view. My point about plumbers was that if you are happy to blow up a family because they look like they were loading weapons, then God help anyone else who looks like they have weapons.
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We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better). About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.
Round peg, square hole. The IRA wanted freedom and a nation of their own, they didn't want to all die in the process. Hamas on the other hand likes the idea of dying and have their own country but they refuse to sit down and shut up.
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Lots of little bombs they are dropping over there. Small bombs the US sold to them even.
So why all the big booms and big fire? Making big holes with little bunker busters.
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Lots of little bombs they are dropping over there. Small bombs the US sold to them even.
So why all the big booms and big fire? Making big holes with little bunker busters.
The big booms are the Hamas ordnance stored in the buildings exploding. Some of the video shown shows fires, and then multiple energetic explosions at random intervals, chain explosions that have the sudden concussion of large HE munitions detonating and setting each other off. Very bright.
That's what happens if you make your entire city into a weapons storage warehouse.
Oh, yes, and the talking heads are now saying that Israel should have engaged Hamas and convinced them to end the rocket fire.
Talk? How many times have they talked? They keep firing rockets. The people firing the rockets are not people, they're animals. They're trying to kill civilians on purpose.
Enough. Hamas needs to be destroyed this time, completely and finally.
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Was being a little sarcastic MW.
I do not have the PC to follow every video.
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Round peg, square hole. The IRA wanted freedom and a nation of their own, they didn't want to all die in the process. Hamas on the other hand likes the idea of dying and have their own country but they refuse to sit down and shut up.
No, the IRA wanted to create a Catholic state and then expel all the Irish who had collaborated with Britain. It was a religiously fanatic movement whose members shot women and children, and committed many of the worst acts of torture in the English speaking world during that time period.
This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights. If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on.
But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand. And at the same time as the Palestinians are not recognized to have any rights, we're all demanding that they refrain from any violence and just play nice.
I predict two long term consequences of this war:
1. Upwards of 1000 Palestinians dead.
2. Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse. Maybe in Jordan too.
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you got the irish thing partially right. you left out the
extortion racket er taxes levied by both sides on shop owners to support le cause. while indeed there were genuine political and social concerns there were also some who made revolution their business. and as always a certain number of sociopaths gravitated to it.
and you might mention that the ira fundraising in the us was enormous. as was the direct smuggling of arms to ireland. the fundraising made cair look like a small church bingo game.
this from a supporter of the republican cause who was disiilusioned
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And what brought about an end to the IRA bombings? Both sides talking realistically.
Until Palestinian terrorist groups come to terms with reality, stop launching rockets, and come to the table with realistic wants there can/will be no peace.
When Hammas or the terrorist group flavour of the week starts launching rockets and mortars, that warrants military response. If they happened to have been evil enough to be sending said rocket from an apartment complex the blame is on them when said complex becomes a pile of rubble, not those who were forced to make it that way to protect themselves.
Israel has made concessions, followed negotiated cease fires, and isn't attacking unprovoked. Until Palestine stops the idiocy of getting rid of Israel completely they will continue to get smacked around every time Israel has had enough of the current bombings.
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But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand.
...where did you get that?
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This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights. If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on.
I do believe they have rights and see both sides of the issue. I suppose a viable two state option, Palestinians get the territory they currently have, Israel gets what they currently have, holy sights are kept and respected by the state they fall under and they along with free travel routes to them remain open to all.
But Palestine doesn't want that. Hammas and others who keep the fight going will not stop until they are either defeated or Israel is wiped away. As Israel isn't going anywhere (and shouldn't) that leaves us with one option.
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This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights. If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on.
They need to stop firing rockets into Israel. They need to STOP FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.
They made Gaza into one big missile base to deliberately lob rockets into civilian areas. The ended the ceasefire and started firing rockets. So no, they have no rights. Not until they stop acting like criminals.
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This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights. If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on.
I call bravo sierra.
For an easy counter-example, take a gander at the majority-Palestinian country to Israel's east: Jordan.
Any air raids by the Israelis over Amman, blasting Jordanian government buildings? Why not, if they are Palestinians with no rights? Might it be because Abdulla is not a fool who allows Palis to launch rockets from his territory?
IOW, it is the actions of the Palis in Gaza which has brought about air raids & other unpleasantness, not their identity.
The Palis in Gaza have had an Israeli-free zone for some time now. All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.
The Palis got the gov't they deserve in Hamas and are reaping crop of destruction they have so lovingly nurtured.
The Israelis have talked, imposed sanctions, etc., but those launching the rockets have not responded to civilized overtures.
But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand.
It is also recommended to not break out the airsoft guns on your front lawn when your neighborhood has been locked down and the SWATties are raiding your chomo meth-dealer neighbor's house.
And at the same time as the Palestinians are not recognized to have any rights, we're all demanding that they refrain from any violence and just play nice.
I predict two long term consequences of this war:
1. Upwards of 1000 Palestinians dead.
2. Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse. Maybe in Jordan too.
1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."
2. I doubt it, on both counts. Much of the anti-Jew hostility has required a steady drumbeat by the gov't to keep it at a fever pitch. In the absence, most will just go about their business.
Also, the "Arab street" is not worth paying any attention. They are not much of a factor in what actually happens in the ME.
* William Tecumseh Sherman quotes relevant to the current fracas:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AGeneral_sherman.jpg&hash=1d47e16234e3e694b0a3d9bdcbde609b5de756ed)
I can make this march, and I will make Georgia howl!
You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.
You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better.
My aim then was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
If they want eternal war, well and good; we accept the issue, and will dispossess them and put our friends in their place. I know thousands and millions of good people who at simple notice would come to North Alabama and accept the elegant houses and plantations there. If the people of Huntsville think different, let them persist in war three years longer, and then they will not be consulted. Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well.
Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence.
You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
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They need to stop firing rockets into Israel. They need to STOP FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.
They made Gaza into one big missile base to deliberately lob rockets into civilian areas. The ended the ceasefire and started firing rockets. So no, they have no rights. Not until they stop acting like criminals.
Thats nonsense - 1.5 million people do not become fair game simply because a very small number of them have a habit of firing off unguided rockets into Israel.
2. Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse. Maybe in Jordan too
This is the big danger. The whole Palestinian issue since 2006 has been a disaster for the West, potentially even more than Iraq has been when it comes to long-term issues.
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Thats nonsense - 1.5 million people do not become fair game simply because a very small number of them have a habit of firing off unguided rockets into Israel.
A, you can make the argument a lot easier when it's their government doing it. B, they are not fair game. I have yet to see where the Israeli soldiers are acting on a "if it moves, shoot it" ROE.
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A, you can make the argument a lot easier when it's their government doing it. B, they are not fair game. I have yet to see where the Israeli soldiers are acting on a "if it moves, shoot it" ROE.
a) Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian Territories (not just the Gaza Strip);
b) that was a response to Manedwolfs quote.
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1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."
Happily, the IDF doesn't agree with that.
The Army has made a conscious effort to minimize civilian casualties. They distribute leaflets to warn civilians to get out of danger zones, and they have ROEs designed to minimize said casualties.
Hamas no doubt needs shooting, but that doesn't apply to the other Palestinians.
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The Palis in Gaza have had an Israeli-free zone for some time now. All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.
Yep. When the Israelis pulled out, they left all those greenhouses intact. What did the Palis do? Use the greenhouses to grow food? Maybe even flowers for export? No, they smashed them in savage glee.
Did they build resorts and cafes on their Mediterranean beaches? No, they built rockets.
They've done it to themselves. Jordan is an example of the exact opposite. They are at peace with Israel, they are an advanced country now with culture and tourism and industry, and a military we're friends with, supplied with the latest weapons.
The Palestinians' dysfunctional flailing rage is not the fault of the Israelis.
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All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.
Eh. I remember reading articles about how the government ostensibly bulldozed the settlements on the way out. Are you sure about this?
[note I'm not arguing, I am just unsure]
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Ah, found it. (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3136516,00.html)
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a) Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian Territories (not just the Gaza Strip);
b) that was a response to Manedwolfs quote.
Like I wrote, the Palis are reaping what they have sown. They elect an unrepentant, unreconstructed terrorist organization with full knowledge of what they are doing. There can be no dissembling about how some dictator they secretly opposed made them do this & such.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
----H. L. Mencken
After 6000+ rockets launched into Israel with the hope of killing civvies, they ought to get it "good and hard."
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Like I wrote, the Palis are reaping what they have sown. They elect an unrepentant, unreconstructed terrorist organization with full knowledge of what they are doing. There can be no dissembling about how some dictator they secretly opposed made them do this & such.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
----H. L. Mencken
After 6000+ rockets launched into Israel with the hope of killing civvies, they ought to get it "good and hard."
There is a good article on the Times website about exactly why you are wrong, and the whole sad history of Western involvement in the issue since Hamas got elected in 2006:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ece
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Read the bilge water in the Times. That is what passes for a good article in the Times?
I want my minutes back.
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Why not, instead, "Hamas must act in a civilized manner and forgo trying to murder innocent civilians?"
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.
"The Germans did not vote Nazi because they were anti-semites, they voted for them because the various factions at Weimar had failed them."
Well, that should provide comfort to the families of those slaughtered by anti-semites this past century.
Or, maybe they rejected Fatah in part becasue it sought accommodation with the Joos.
In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style.
How gracious of them.
In the nine years I have worked for my employer, they have never professed the goal to implement subcutaneous RF tags for their employees.
The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror.
Here it is. It is not ever the Pali's fault they are murderous scum, elect murderous slime to lead them, and are as unsympathetic a people as have ever trod the Earth.
When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position.
Don't really care anymore what is in their leaders' minds. More interested in exposing the contents to the elements.
It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions.
This man is a naive fool. May he never be in a position to determine foreign policy.
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Here's what Israel's President has to say:
Yesterday, we saw our soldiers with their heavy bags, carrying on their backs not just their gear, but the entire history of our people. We saw the commanders, with their night vision binoculars, looking forward, towards the future.
We are not a people who desires war. We are not an aggressive people. We do not aim to destroy the Arabs, but to bring peace. We say that the government was in grave doubt about this decision – it was because they feared doing an injustice. It is very important enough that the cause of our war be just.
Even today the government maintains a moderate tongue. We do not wish to destroy Gaza or even destroy Hamas. We only want the terror to end. When I look at the children of the Palestinians, my heart bleeds. They are being used as weapons, and we have no desire to hurt them or any other innocents. I am proud of the soldiers and commanders who have planned this operation. Operation Cast Lead is a justified and just action, aimed at hurting the Hamas, improving the Army's capacity for deterrence and achieving a long-term stable situation in Gaza and the surrounding area.
Some say that our reaction is disproportional. I ask: what is proportional? Should we only stop part of the rockets? The proper balance is between avoiding harm to innocents and making sure that the extremist maniacs realize that they have no chance, and ensuring they pay a heavy price for their actions.
We can't know how long the operation will go on. Nothing in life is perfect, and nothing is final. We are a small, democratic, fair and peaceloving nation. We feel this war is necessary and just. If we win it, then peace shall be our victory.
Shimon Peres, President of Israel, talking to schoolchildren in the South of Israel
My thoughts:
1. It seems to me that he's not really addressing the schoolkids, he's addressing the media present.
2. It also seems that he is already preparing the public for the idea that the Army will probably start short of ending the rocket fire completely. That is.... words cannot express my feeling regarding how pathetic this is. But that said, Peres is a Kadima member. Fail is their profession.
3. As this progresses, I am getting more and more the feeling that Israel will quit on this before getting a real achievement, and go home, probably because of international pressure. Hamas will declare victory.
4. The above is an optimist prediction. The pessimist prediction is that Hamas does something 'successful' – kidnaps another soldier, blows up an APC full of troops, or maybe hits a schoolbus with their rockets, and THEN Israel will leave. This will essentially be a Hamas victory, no matter what casualties we inflict on them. It'll be like the Tet Offensive, reproduced on a miniature, retarded Middle-Eastern Scale.
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I call bravo sierra.
For an easy counter-example, take a gander at the majority-Palestinian country to Israel's east: Jordan.
Any air raids by the Israelis over Amman, blasting Jordanian government buildings? Why not, if they are Palestinians with no rights? Might it be because Abdulla is not a fool who allows Palis to launch rockets from his territory?
King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri. But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights.
In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime. When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act."
Turning to your points:
The Palis got the gov't they deserve in Hamas and are reaping crop of destruction they have so lovingly nurtured.
1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."
2. I doubt it, on both counts. Much of the anti-Jew hostility has required a steady drumbeat by the gov't to keep it at a fever pitch. In the absence, most will just go about their business.
Also, the "Arab street" is not worth paying any attention. They are not much of a factor in what actually happens in the ME.
This is basically just proving my point. You don't think the Palestinians have any rights, therefore, it's acceptable to kill record numbers of them to get their political leadership to do whatever you want it to do.
Quoting Sherman just hammers it home. Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.
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This is the big danger. The whole Palestinian issue since 2006 has been a disaster for the West, potentially even more than Iraq has been when it comes to long-term issues.
Yep-and everyone thought the Iranian masses were irrelevant too, until their tyrant was running scared for safe shores and mobs were violating the sanctity of the U.S. embassy. And boy has that little lapse in attention to "the irrelevant ME street" turned out spectacularly.
That is likely what will happen now to Egypt: one day we will wake up, mobs will have burned the embassies and stoned Mubarak to death, and everyone will be shouting about how unpredictable and savage the whole thing was. As if it weren't the obvious consequence of a steady stream of dead children out of Gaza, the poorest place in the entire Arab world.
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Shootin, did you see my post? A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.
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Shootin, did you see my post? A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.
Yeah, they always have to out-likudnik the likudniks in America. This is perhaps why I used to believe that the Kahanists had more sway in Israel-I was wrong, it's in America that they seem to have the most support.
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jfruser,
Well thank God you responded to that article in a manner that was entirely free from fact.
My thoughts:
1. It seems to me that he's not really addressing the schoolkids, he's addressing the media present.
2. It also seems that he is already preparing the public for the idea that the Army will probably start short of ending the rocket fire completely. That is.... words cannot express my feeling regarding how pathetic this is. But that said, Peres is a Kadima member. Fail is their profession.
3. As this progresses, I am getting more and more the feeling that Israel will quit on this before getting a real achievement, and go home, probably because of international pressure. Hamas will declare victory.
4. The above is an optimist prediction. The pessimist prediction is that Hamas does something 'successful' – kidnaps another soldier, blows up an APC full of troops, or maybe hits a schoolbus with their rockets, and THEN Israel will leave. This will essentially be a Hamas victory, no matter what casualties we inflict on them. It'll be like the Tet Offensive, reproduced on a miniature, retarded Middle-Eastern Scale.
I think its worth pointing out that (as Lebanon showed, and as not really been stated here) Olmert and his government are essentially rubbish.
IMHO (3) is the most likely outcome, since the public war aims (stopping rocket and mortar fire) are so clearly impossible to achieve without killing absolutely everyone that they will have to pull out. Hamas will then launch a few rockets - which after all are extremely low tech and easy to fire off - and point out that they are still there, and have therefore won. They will then be massively boosted as a result, just as Hezbollah was in Lebanon. That could easily lead to Fatah being kicked out of the West Bank (despite all the Western support), and further problems for Mubarak in Egypt.
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In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime. When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act."
In the interests of fairness, this is not strictly speaking true (though it has been since 1945). It was long held (since at least classical times, and probably all the way up to the end of ww2) that if the population of a town/fort/area resisted the occupiers / invaders then they were all fair game as a result.
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Good article in the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-the-death-and-life-of-my-father-1225793.html
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Is Israel done repressing the peace loving Palestinians and violently disarming their menfolk, who only need those rockets to hunt food so that they won't starve to death?
Do we have verification that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel, or is this just a cynical ploy by the Isralies to get Gaza back?
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King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri. But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights.
What IS relevant is that Abdullah is bright enough to not allow his government or citizens to launch rockets at Israel. Admittedly, not a high bar...but a bar Hamas has yet to clear.
Amazing how that works: don't act in a hostile manner toward one's neighbors and try to kill innocents at random...and your neighbors leave you alone and don't bomb the *expletive deleted*it out of you.
Stop whining about how "the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights." That is not the case. What is occurring is that those Palis who have exercised their right to vote elected terrorist thugs to rule them are having the consequences of their actions brought home to them.
jfruser,
Well thank God you responded to that article in a manner that was entirely free from fact.
The author is a twit and ought to be kept from any position of responsibility requiring judgment.
Also, "his" group is to the UK what CAIR is to the USA: jihadi apologists and militant Islam lobby:
http://www.forwardthinking.org/index.html
I put "his" in doubt quotes, as he is just the paid anglo front-man.
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A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.
These threads always come down to this.
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King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri. But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights.
In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime. When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act."
Turning to your points:
This is basically just proving my point. You don't think the Palestinians have any rights, therefore, it's acceptable to kill record numbers of them to get their political leadership to do whatever you want it to do.
Quoting Sherman just hammers it home. Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.
And you are foolishly treating an act of war by another state as a crime committed by an individual.
Maybe the United States should just step in and take over Gaza and arrest the people firing rockets.
That's our job as world policeman, isn't it?
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These threads always come down to this.
The mad thing is that they come down to this here.
I would have thought that JBTs running around blowing stuff up on suspicion and generally putting the hurt on innocent people would be pretty much always opposed on this forum, but involve Israel in the discussion and suddenly "we are all JBTs", and a government (which more than a few people have pointed out is not especially pro-gun or freedom-loving) is lauded, irrespective of what is actually happening.
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That's not what Israel is doing or there'd be far more civilians dead.
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King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri.
Is he, now.
Jordan:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mazin-abouseido.com%2FDynamics_Images%2FCrownPlaza_Amman.JPG&hash=a0271c2ef1db8f4c55261f01d24729554bc1357e)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yayacanada.com%2Fsamditree.jpg&hash=3995decd864233f4b684525274d85a0973cd935a)
Gaza (which is ON THE FREAKING COAST and could have been a tourist destination!):
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbagnewsnotes.typepad.com%2Fbagnews%2Fimages%2FMorenWP-1.jpg&hash=0c51f325bbfcebd9473e4aa9cced1fc5ce8917a8)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.foreignpolicy.com%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fhamas_rally.jpg&hash=f633d2329ca1f99222593d977de5666e399d05b1)
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"IMHO (3) is the most likely outcome, since the public war aims (stopping rocket and mortar fire) are so clearly impossible to achieve without killing absolutely everyone that they will have to pull out. Hamas will then launch a few rockets - which after all are extremely low tech and easy to fire off - and point out that they are still there, and have therefore won. They will then be massively boosted as a result, just as Hezbollah was in Lebanon. That could easily lead to Fatah being kicked out of the West Bank (despite all the Western support), and further problems for Mubarak in Egypt."
All the more reason for Israel, finally, to deliver the fait accompli to Hamas and it's sponsors....Live with us in peace, for this is what we desire and to which we commit ourselves. We will then live together as good neighbors should. Others have chosen to do so and it is preferable for all. It is your choice to make. If you choose otherwise, then we are not responsible for what shall follow. And then do one or the other.
The trouble with modern warfare, when it is necessary, when it is the last resort, it is not carried out properly.
to answer the question whether the Palestinians have rights...sadly, when they choose to live and act by the rule that their neighbor, The State of Israel, not only should be dissolved, but its people, men, women and children, be wiped from the face of the earth by any means, then the answer is no!
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Quoting Sherman just hammers it home. Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.
1. Pali's have rights, infact more rights in Israel then in the Territories.... But with rights come responsiblities, like "Don't shoot at your neighbors, they might shoot back."
2. A little reading of history and you'll find that Sherman's March produced significantly fewer casualties compared to the bloodletting that Grant and Lee were conducting in Virginia. Sherman destroyed Property and Morale. Might I suggest The Soul of Battle: From Ancient Times to the Present Day, How Three Great Liberators Vanquished Tyranny by Victor Davis Hanson. Sherman is an apt comparison and a model on how to conduct war.
3. How many missles would have to be lobbed into US from anywhere in the world before the US hit the "Unleash Hell" button ?? Hint: After four airliners were used as suicide missles, we went after two countries.
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All the more reason for Israel, finally, to deliver the fait accompli to Hamas and it's sponsors....Live with us in peace, for this is what we desire and to which we commit ourselves. We will then live together as good neighbors should. Others have chosen to do so and it is preferable for all. It is your choice to make. If you choose otherwise, then we are not responsible for what shall follow. And then do one or the other.
The trouble with modern warfare, when it is necessary, when it is the last resort, it is not carried out properly.
to answer the question whether the Palestinians have rights...sadly, when they choose to live and act by the rule that their neighbor, The State of Israel, not only should be dissolved, but its people, men, women and children, be wiped from the face of the earth by any means, then the answer is no!
Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist.
There is a somewhat prescient article at the SSI here, that really demands to be read: http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/abstract.cfm?q=894
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Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist.
If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.
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If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.
Are you implying the Brits attempted to exterminate all of Germany?
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Ah, the old collective guilt way of thinking.
Is there any way in which it is inappropriate?
Before Israel began responding, do you think the people who lived in Gaza didn't (publicly or privately) cheer each and every time they saw a rocket being launched from their neighborhood in the direction of Israel? "Yay, there goes another one! I that one kills some Zionist swine!"
Then Israel says, "Enough, already," and shoots back, and all of a sudden ALL the Palestinians in Gaza are peace-loving, innocent bystanders.
Bull.
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If your immediate ancestors believed as you do, you'd be speaking German.
What utter nonsense.
Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled. Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks. The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences. They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.
Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie: from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.
I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).
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What utter nonsense.
Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled. Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks. The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences. They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.
Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie: from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.
I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).
Ah yes, we should ignore aggression and will to murder until those harboring such intentions are better able to carry out their desires.
So Isreal, just sit back and wait until Iran gives Hamas a nuke and THEN you can do something.
Until then, it's just unfair to fight back.
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Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.
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Ah yes, we should ignore aggression and will to murder until those harboring such intentions are better able to carry out their desires.
So Isreal, just sit back and wait until Iran gives Hamas a nuke and THEN you can do something.
Until then, it's just unfair to fight back.
Yes, unlikely hypothetical scenarios totally justify what is going on.
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What utter nonsense.
Nazi Germany was a state that was able to overrun most of Europe, bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled. Its missiles were, for the time, groundbreaking and were on several occasions capable of killing more than a hundred people in single attacks. The RAF and USAAF were also responding (via area bombing) in a war that the Germans had started, using methods the Germans had used against pretty much everyone since 1937, and had to contend with heavy defences. They were also using the best methods for attacking military production available at the time.
Hamas is able to throw single unguided rockets around 25 km, and total rocket fire (ie: from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah groups) has killed 18 people since 2001.
I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).
Gosh you're right.....Until Hamas gets better rockets and becomes capable of actually slaughtering ALL the Jews in Israel, we can just ignore them.......[/sarcasm]
bomb most of our cities into varying degrees of ruin and had the ultimate aim of ending jewish, gypsy christian and more than a few others life in every part of the world it controlled.
WOW, that reads right out the Hamas playbook.
I seem to remember the last time someone made such an analogy of appeasement was pre-Iraq, when we were all lied to about Saddam being able to use WMDs in 45 minutes (as well as other wheezes).
Last I checked, Saddam hasn't used any WMD's since the invasion....... :angel:
P.S. The reason the RAF and USAAF were conducting area bombing was because that was one of the few means available to the Allies until they wre able to mount the cross channel invasion. Also note that once the cross channel invasion took place the area bombing attacks increased.
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Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.
There are two ways of dealing with people, by logic or by force. IIRC, some blogger whom I can recall at the momemnt wrote a pretty good article about it, RE: why he owned guns.
Remember the purpose of war is to bend the enemy to your will. (In this case: Stop shooting missles at our civilians.) If BOTH sides are not willing to sit down and discuss their differences and work to a common solution, then war can be avoid. But when one side starts off by saying that "You have no right to exist", that makes negotiations pretty near impossible.
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Are our only two alternatives 'become pacifists' and 'exterminate all opposition'? No.
That appears to be the choice people are suggesting here.
Personally - though its almost certainly too late for it now - I would like to see some sanity brought back to the peace process. Like it or not, Hamas are (or rather should be) the elected government in all of the occupied territories, we will (as McCain said before he found it embarrassing to do so) have to deal with them if a lasting peace is to be achieved. Pretending they dont exist and idiotically backing Abbas and Fatah (does anyone really think that being supported by the US and Israel is going to improve his/their standing amongst Palestinians?) as the only game in town with regards to negotiations will inevitably lead to yet more violence.
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That appears to be the choice people are suggesting here.
Personally - though its almost certainly too late for it now - I would like to see some sanity brought back to the peace process. Like it or not, Hamas are (or rather should be) the elected government in all of the occupied territories, we will (as McCain said before he found it embarrassing to do so) have to deal with them if a lasting peace is to be achieved. Pretending they dont exist and idiotically backing Abbas and Fatah (does anyone really think that being supported by the US and Israel is going to improve his/their standing amongst Palestinians?) as the only game in town with regards to negotiations will inevitably lead to yet more violence.
Hamas ended the ceasefire.
Hamas started pinging rockets into Israel again.
Explain how that works with what you just stated.
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Ah, the Kafkaesque situation whereby being alleged to believe someone has no right to exist means that someone else can remove your own right to exist.
Ah, another example of humanity's ability to ignore the painfully obvious.
Conquest has been recognized as one way nations and cultures come into being and others go away. It ain't pretty, but it is undeniable. God gave Israel a plot of ground a long time ago. If anyone doesn't choose to believe that, it doesn't really matter, actually because Israel conquered the peoples of the area to keep it. Israel was subsequently conquered. dispersed and in the end reestablished.
After that, in 1967, Israel conquered all comers that chose to be involved in the area and reinforced their legitimacy.
Those are undeniable facts. Oddly, most Israeli's appear to be willing to not only live side by side with Arabs, even after the continuing stupidity of certain factions of Arabs, they are willing to do much more than that. They have exhibited that willingness over and over. Certain Arabs, on the other hand, seem to not have the sense to know that all they have to do is accept what is a fact. They were beaten, but the party that beat them is willing to accept them and live with them in peace. Other Arab states have come to a reasonable conclusion that peace and tolerance seems to be a better way to live than squalor, hate, and continual fighting. By the way, one does not seem to see a rush by other Arab states to assimilate any of their brothers and sisters. Could it be that certain factions of Arabs aren't able to get along with anyone, even themselves on occasion?
So, from a historical perspective, if the so called Palestinians really wanted to live peaceful lives, why don't they start acting like it. Usually, at some point, the culture or State they are continually jabbing, is going to have enough of it and exercise the option that they have tried mightily to avoid for the last 40 years; scorched earth. I for one wouldn't blame them, even while I wept over the fools that brought that upon themselves.
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Hamas ended the ceasefire.
Hamas started pinging rockets into Israel again.
Explain how that works with what you just stated.
i) the West responded to Hamas being elected in 2006 by cutting off all funding to the Palestinian Authority, then arming and supporting the party (which lets not forget has killed more than a few Israelis in suicide bombings, rocket fire and other terrorist attacks) which lost. When Hamas turned the tables on Fatah in the Gaza Strip, the West pretended they didnt exist and made sure that their chief negotiator was someone who is probably the second least likely person to encourage hopes of peace. It then allowed Israel to blockade Gaza. These actions are unlikely to lead to a lasting peace process;
ii) I said "though its almost certainly too late for it now". This should have made your post redundant.
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i) the West responded to Hamas being elected in 2006 by cutting off all funding to the Palestinian Authority, then arming and supporting the party (which lets not forget has killed more than a few Israelis in suicide bombings, rocket fire and other terrorist attacks) which lost. When Hamas turned the tables on Fatah in the Gaza Strip, the West pretended they didnt exist and made sure that their chief negotiator was someone who is probably the second least likely person to encourage hopes of peace. It then allowed Israel to blockade Gaza. These actions are unlikely to lead to a lasting peace process;
ii) I said "though its almost certainly too late for it now". This should have made your post redundant.
Sooooooooo....
Gaza doesn't share a border with Egypt?
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You. Can. Not. Negotiate. With. People. Who. Want. You. To. Die.
Until "Death to Israel" is no longer part of their demands, you can't have peace. No one wants war when it can be avoided. But when one side wants nothing but total surrender, peace can't be reached.
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You. Can. Not. Negotiate. With. People. Who. Want. You. To. Die.
Until "Death to Israel" is no longer part of their demands, you can't have peace. No one wants war when it can be avoided. But when one side wants nothing but total surrender, peace can't be reached.
Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you. Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you. Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then.
To do so would be fruitless.
;/
Gaza doesn't share a border with Egypt?
Yes, it does. They agreed to close it at Israel's request.
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Yes, it does. They agreed to close it at Israel's request.
Of course, Hamas attacking Egyptian citizens and police has NOTHING to do with that.
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Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you. Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you. Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then.
What part of "They WANT to die" isn't clear to you, exactly? Or the part about "never resting until they or their children or their children's children wipe Israel from the face of the earth"?
THEY. WANT. TO. DIE. AS. MARTYRS.
That is not fixable! Ever!
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It's interesting that the most reasonable view of the peace process I ever heard was stated by a former FATAH fighter.
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What part of "They WANT to die" isn't clear to you, exactly? Or the part about "never resting until they or their children or their children's children wipe Israel from the face of the earth"?
THEY. WANT. TO. DIE. AS. MARTYRS.
That is not fixable! Ever!
Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them. And their neighbours. And their plumbers. And their plumbers neighbours. In fact anyone who uses reasonably large cylindrical objects is probably asking for it, and come to think of it what kind of people live next to people who use reasonably large cylindrical objects anyway? They probably want to die too.
Oh, and some other people who live suspiciously near the border.
Whatever you do, dont talk to them! They want to die!
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It's interesting that the most reasonable view of the peace process I ever heard was stated by a former FATAH fighter.
I think we are in desperate need of reason on this thread.
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Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you. Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you. Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then.
Do you live in lala land? They bring nothing to the table but die, or at the very least get off the land we want it. That's their position, they haven't budged from it for decades. YOU CAN NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE. Your problem is you expect them to be logical about the situation. Everyone is more then willing to have reasonable negotiations. They have yet to negotiate anything beyond die or get the hell out.
Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them.
In an instance where they do not want peace and insist on attacking....yes.
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Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them. And their neighbours. And their plumbers. And their plumbers neighbours. In fact anyone who uses reasonably large cylindrical objects is probably asking for it, and come to think of it what kind of people live next to people who use reasonably large cylindrical objects anyway? They probably want to die too.
Oh, and some other people who live suspiciously near the border.
Whatever you do, dont talk to them! They want to die!
Are you at all familiar with how your own government successfully and completely dealt with the Thugees?
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Do you live in lala land? They bring nothing to the table but die, or at the very least get off the land we want it. That's their position, they haven't budged from it for decades. YOU CAN NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE. Your problem is you expect them to be logical about the situation. Everyone is more then willing to have reasonable negotiations. They have yet to negotiate anything beyond die or get the hell out.
Yes, the Israelis are perfectly willing to have reasonable negotiations. Not with Hamas, of course - its not as if they are the elected government or anything, and besides they are all mad! Everyone knows it! They are willing to discuss things with Fatah though, who after all have a long history of suicide bombing, terror attacks and other major crimes against Israel and the West are our current friends. They will be more than willing to propose a return to sensible borders that we choose to impose on them.
They did not bring anything to the table because they were not invited to it. They were never invited to it. Having a peace deal between two parties, one of which isnt invited is not a peace deal.
In an instance where they do not want peace and insist on attacking....yes.
Of course they dont want peace! They proved that when we didnt invite them to the peace talks!
=(
Are you at all familiar with how your own government successfully and completely dealt with the Thugees?
By police methods?
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Agri,
You cannot neogiate with someone who keeps punching you in the face.
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Illustrated:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv403%2Fandros13%2FHowThingsWorkInMiddleEastWars-cropp.jpg&hash=ae422cf7a1316e4389c092d3b74c6196499c45fc)
This picture pretty much sums up this thread. No one disagrees that this picture is what is going on. The question of course becomes, are you justified in taking out the woman on the left while trying to get to the man?
Now I have no problem if Hamas were fighting, even guerilla-type warfare if they:
a) Didn't hide among civilians
b) Attacked Israeli defenses / government buildings
What other choice does Israel (or any other nation in that situatoin, as I have no ties for Israel) have? Should they just accept potshots at civilians forever?
The fact is Israel is not killing civilians, Hamas is killing them, because Hamas is using them as human shields.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv403%2Fandros13%2FHowThingsWorkInMiddleEastWars-cropp.jpg&hash=ae422cf7a1316e4389c092d3b74c6196499c45fc)
This picture pretty much sums up this thread. No one disagrees that this picture is what is going on. The question of course becomes, are you justified in taking out the woman on the left while trying to get to the man?
All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....
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All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....
And this was such a nice thread.
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All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....
Ummmmm, nope. :mad:
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Yes, the Israelis are perfectly willing to have reasonable negotiations. Not with Hamas, of course - its not as if they are the elected government or anything, and besides they are all mad! Everyone knows it! They are willing to discuss things with Fatah though, who after all have a long history of suicide bombing, terror attacks and other major crimes against Israel and the West are our current friends. They will be more than willing to propose a return to sensible borders that we choose to impose on them.
They did not bring anything to the table because they were not invited to it. They were never invited to it. Having a peace deal between two parties, one of which isnt invited is not a peace deal.
Please do refresh my memory...who broke the Egypt brokered cease fire again? Oh that's right, Hamas!
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Please do refresh my memory...who broke the Egypt brokered cease fire again? Oh that's right, Hamas!
Yes, the Israeli attack in November had nothing to do with it, nor did the continued blockade. There is a good Wikipedia article with sources on the development of the crisis here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background
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Yes, the Israeli attack in November had nothing to do with it, nor did the continued blockade. There is a good Wikipedia article with sources on the development of the crisis here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background
What you're missing is the presumption here: Israel has the right to kill, and Palestinians do not. Therefore, Israeli attacks are irrelevant in the timeline of causes, because they were right to do it. Palestinian attacks are always wrong, so even if the rockets follow a bombing by Israel, those rockets are an act of aggression.
I think your original parallel to the IRA was spot on. It was a religiously fanatical organization that was finally defeated when....the UK organized a sit down and invited the terrorist political arm to join the government with the ability to negotiate real concessions and to have its population represented.
The result? Not more terrorism-virtually no terrorism now, compared to near constant terrorist agitation before the government capitulated and gave Sinn Fein nearly everything it asked for short of expelling all the loyalists.
But the lessons you all learned so hard over there in the English speaking world won't transfer, it seems.
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The result? Not more terrorism-virtually no terrorism now, compared to near constant terrorist agitation before the government capitulated and gave Sinn Fein nearly everything it asked for short of expelling all the loyalists.
That is really quite wrong - the Government did not capitulate to Sinn Fein, they just ensured that the vast majority of the causes of the revolt (the sundry injustices and harrassment faced by Catholics, the economic deprivation of the communities and the presence of the Army) were either totally removed or heavily mitigated. Once these had gone, there was a lot of pressure from the communities that had supported PIRA (who, like nearly all terror groups, had unsportingly hid amongst the civilian population) to stop the violence or lose support.
It also helped that the last ten years of the Troubles had seen the Army and RUC be very successful in targetting PIRA members, and that the Conservative Government of Major was willing to make (and be publically seen to make) concessions and admit where it had gone wrong in the past, both legally and tactically. As you note, the end result has been a largely successful peace, which is its own reward.
edit: there is also the question of whether independence really matters that much anymore - Eire and the UK are both EU members, after all. If we ever take up the Euro then there will be virtually none.
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How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves?
Why shouldn't the Israelis seek a full and complete victory (full surrender from Hamas on Israel's terms)?
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How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves?
A nuclear-tipped missile, apparently.
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A nuclear-tipped missile, apparently.
How many nuclear tipped missiles? Just one...?
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How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves?
Why shouldn't the Israelis seek a full and complete victory (full surrender from Hamas on Israel's terms)?
How many Palestinian civilians have to be blown up by the Israelis before they are justified in trying to defend themselves?
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How many Palestinian civilians have to be blown up by the Israelis before they are justified in trying to defend themselves?
From Hamas?
That's who is getting them killed.
What sort of POS uses an occupied nursery school to shoot from?
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From Hamas?
That's who is getting them killed.
What sort of POS uses an occupied nursery school to shoot from?
Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools?
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Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools?
Oh, for god's sake.
NO. IT'S ALL MADE UP. Hamas just wants to grow flowers and sell them to the Israelis and the mean nasty joooz keep shooting them and eating their children.
What is WRONG with so many people in Europe? Is it going to take the all-out extension of the jihad to the UK to make them realize "Oh, this is rather unexpected...they are refusing to come in for tea, they've just beheaded the neighbors. Perhaps they're not such nice sorts after all. Whatever shall we do now?"
Christ. :P
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Oh, for god's sake.
NO. IT'S ALL MADE UP. Hamas just wants to grow flowers and sell them to the Israelis and the mean nasty joooz keep shooting them and eating their children.
What is WRONG with so many people in Europe? Is it going to take the all-out extension of the jihad to the UK to make them realize "Oh, this is rather unexpected...they are refusing to come in for tea, they've just beheaded the neighbors. Perhaps they're not such nice sorts after all. Whatever shall we do now?"
Christ. :P
Yes, we in Europe have no experience with terrorism (or terrorists that hide amongst civilian populations), and no experience with genocidal neighbours who live nearby. I only wish we had the lengthy experience that the domestic US has in all forms of terrorism.
That said, we usually back up our statements with facts. Do you have any evidence that Hamas is firing rockets from occupied nursery schools?
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Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1231/p01s02-wome.html
But as the conflict stretches on and Israeli warplanes and drones seek out Hamas commanders and other militant leaders hiding in neighborhoods in the densely packed coastal strip, it will be harder to contain civilian deaths.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm
Previous evidence of rockets being fired from civilian areas. But since this comes from Israel itself, it's obviously photoshopped and fake, right?
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Yes, we in Europe have no experience with terrorism (or terrorists that hide amongst civilian populations), and no experience with genocidal neighbours who live nearby. I only wish we had the lengthy experience that the domestic US has in all forms of terrorism.
No, yall just seem to have forgotten it.
Perhaps we should have just kept sitting down and talking to Hitler while he was turning the over temperatures up. He probably wasn't such a bad guy....just misunderstood and needed to be bargained with.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1231/p01s02-wome.htmlhttp://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm
Previous evidence of rockets being fired from civilian areas. But since this comes from Israel itself, it's obviously photoshopped and fake, right?
Forgive me, I cannot see any evidence that Hamas have been firing rockets from occupied nursery schools, which after all was the question that was asked (which you should be aware of, given that you quoted from it).
As for your claim about "rockets being fired from civilian areas", at least two of those clips show rockets being fired from relatively open ground, and the Gaza Strip is in any case one of the most densely occupied parts of the world - there is not that much non-occupied ground to use. In any case, as has been repeatedly stated before this hiding amongst the civilian population is what terror groups do - be they the IRA, the Eurocommunism groups, Arab groups or (heaven forbid) the Jewish terror groups that carried out all manner of atrocities prior to Israel being set up.
The other evidence presented there - like this photo (selected because the wider view remarkably appears to be of a completely different location to the inset picture):
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfa.gov.il%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2FB6492B9C-9288-4565-8740-A6C78C7E3C78%2F0%2Fdarjworkshop.jpg&hash=33ae446a3d53095ef13bebacfc6e1d906568f290)
are so open to abuse (the pic is captioned A Hamas Kassam rocket manufacturing shop in the Darj
neighborhood of Gaza) as to be worthless, without supporting evidence that is as likely to be a kebab shop as it is a rocket manufacturing place.
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No, yall just seem to have forgotten it.
Perhaps we should have just kept sitting down and talking to Hitler while he was turning the over temperatures up. He probably wasn't such a bad guy....just misunderstood and needed to be bargained with.
Yes, we should definately oppose the fundamentalists with the overwhelming miltary strength that have carried out ethnic cleansing of areas and ensured the ghettoization of millions of innocent people. Oh wait!
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selected because the wider view remarkably appears to be of a completely different location to the inset picture
Look again. In the wide shot that occupies most of the main frame, the building across the street from the highlighted structure has a long courtyard or alley in it. This same feature is found on the bottom of the inset frame. Also in the main frame; above the highlighted structure is another building which sits an an oblique angle to the highlighted structure. This can also be seen in the inset frame.