Author Topic: Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop  (Read 11796 times)

Seymour Skinner

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« on: December 01, 2005, 05:46:20 AM »
Gun owner to government:  

DON'T tell me what kind of gun I can have.  DON'T smash in my door becuse I'm owning an "unapproved" firearm.  DON'T go house to house taking people's guns.  DON'T entrap gun owners on "technicalities."  I'm a citizen and have rights to property and privacy.  DON'T make the law vague and complex so that gun owners are trapped and prosecuted for owning gun B that is the same as gun A except for barrel length.  Even though the law hasn't allowed me to have an unregistered machine gun since the early 1930s, I still consider it my right to own one, and the heavy handed federal government has no authority or jurisdiction to essentially invade my state and invade my home and force me to register MY property, let alone forbid me from owning something that they FORBID me to register.  It is wrong and unconstitutional to prosecute a gun owner for being in "constructive possession" of a machine gun simply for owning PARTS to an M-16 AND a SEMI auto AR-15 at the same time.  Gun prohibition does not work because criminals do not obey laws.  Repeal gun laws that don't stop crime, which is 99% of them.  The 2nd amendment to the constitution protects my right to own the gun of my choice.  Government bans guns so it can have a monopoly on them.  Government always compiles lists of citizens and then abuses that information.  There should be an amnesty for people who have found grandpa's machine gun that he brought back from WWII but didn't register.  I'm a member of 4 gun lobbies.





Same gun owner to same government:

DON'T legalize that plant.  DON'T allow that plant to be prescribed for the sick and dying.  KEEP pulling people over and searching for certain drugs.  Yea, TAKE their house, that will teach them to sell something that was legal prior to the 1930s.  If we RE-legalize drugs, especially marijuana, immediately, people will abuse them.  We need to build more prisons to house these scumbags who buy, use, sell something that was legal prior to the 1930s.  "No knock" warrants for drug law violators are AOK, because they might flush that plant/substance down the toilet and then how would we be able to pay $30,000 a year to house them in a federal prison?  I see no problem with prosecting people for putting prescription meds in an unmarked bottle, or merely possessing a bottle labeled for someone else's prescription.  The "drug war" is not successful but we can't stop now.  Nowhere in the constitution is there a protection to own a plant like marijuana or a substance from a plant that I and the federal government don't approve of [even though the constitution is ALL about individual rights and property protection from government]  Snooping on people's electric bills is acceptable because we HAVE to fight the "war on drugs."  It's good when government agents arrest and prosecute people for having "drug paraphernalia," which yes, could mean almost ANYTHING, but hey, we HAVE to fight the "drug war" and we can't give up even though I admit it's unwinable, expensive, and actually a war on Americans.  Don't tax and regulate marijuana/other drugs because addicts DESERVE to die if they use and adulterated/tained drug.  Groups like The Marijuana Policy Project are just potheads and should be ignored even though they're fighting for the same rights to privacy and property ownership I am.

Fly320s

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2005, 05:52:28 AM »
Sounds good to me.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

griz

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2005, 06:08:00 AM »
It amazes me that there are people who do not recognize the hypocrisy in the two positions, but there are. With bait like this thread, there probably will be a few checking in shortly.
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Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 07:16:25 AM »
Well, just to take a contrarian position, drug use inevitably leads to addiction and it is not long before the used is completely unable to function.  He/she becomes dependent on society and engages in other, sometimes violent, criminal behavior.  There is a legitimate public policy reason to curtail the use and possession of dangerous, mind altering, mood affecting chemicals.

Firearms use and possession have no such inevitable consequences.  Sure, addiction is a possibility, but it doesn't lead to a complete inability to competently operate in society.

cordex

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 07:34:16 AM »
Quote
Well, just to take a contrarian position, drug use inevitably leads to addiction and it is not long before the used is completely unable to function.  He/she becomes dependent on society and engages in other, sometimes violent, criminal behavior.  There is a legitimate public policy reason to curtail the use and possession of dangerous, mind altering, mood affecting chemicals.
Then to be consistant we should remove all such recreational drugs.  Right?
Should we start with alcohol and tobacco and move on to caffeine later?

And drug use inevitably leads to addiction?

I don't drink, have never smoked pot or taken any illicit drug, don't care about drinking caffeine one way or another and very, very rarely smoke a pipe with tobacco.  If all recreational drugs were outlawed it wouldn't bother me a bit.  Still, I don't think it is right to outlaw them simply because I choose not to use them or think they are bad for you.

Guest

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 07:52:09 AM »
riley mc-    The logical progression of your argument about drug use, to wit- there is a cost to society so the government should control it- is an argument for government interferance in ALL human activity, one which they are ever eager to exploit-- drugs, guns, bike helmets, seat belts, smoking, mandatory insurance, fatty foods- yes, it is coming- what you do for work, sport, what kind of house you live in, where you can build it ,the list is endless ...
 
   "Cost to Society" is right up there with "It's for the children"
 
  I have been around lots of dopers, if they want to kill themselves why should I care? (and a lot of them will not )The essence of freedom IS free choice. The thing I do care about is the fact fact they have to commit crimes to finance thier habit because the government has artificially driven up the cost of thier supply.

  "War on Drugs" = "War on Civil Rights"
  "War on Terror"= "War on Civil Rights" x 10

Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 07:58:03 AM »
Heyheyhey......I'm not an apologist for the War-On-Some-Drugs......I'm just saying there isn't a direct correlation between gun possession and use and drug possesion and use.   So it's not automatically 'hypocritical' to promote the former and condemn the latter.

griz

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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 08:27:58 AM »
Quote
I'm just saying there isn't a direct correlation between gun possession and use and drug possesion and use
The correlation isn't about possesion, that's just the way the laws are written. The correlation is outlawing a particular item because of the POTENTIAL for abuse.
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Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2005, 08:53:05 AM »
Quote
The correlation is outlawing a particular item because of the POTENTIAL for abuse
Yeah, and I already said that use of outlawed drugs has more than a potential for abuse-it's inevitable.  Not so with firearms.   Show me a long term recreational user of heroin or cocaine who still functions independently.

griz

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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2005, 09:07:35 AM »
Depends on who you ask. Gun control groups will probably argue that gun violence/gun ownership is a stronger relationship than drug use/ addiction. (and BTW, I would agree with you that it is not, so we aren't too far apart) On your last question, rumor has it that President Bush used to use coke and did not succumb to addiction.
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buy guns

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2005, 09:11:52 AM »
Quote from: RileyMc
Quote
The correlation is outlawing a particular item because of the POTENTIAL for abuse
Yeah, and I already said that use of outlawed drugs has more than a potential for abuse-it's inevitable.  Not so with firearms.   Show me a long term recreational user of heroin or cocaine who still functions independently.
so what? its not your life. if someones life is so crappy that they are hooked on coke then that is there problem. ive done coke for periods of time along with some of my friends and not one of us was once addicted to it. we have jobs and go to school and have normal lives; drugs are something thats fun to do on the weekends.

the people who get hooked on drugs are the ones who have shitty lives and think that they have no future. if they dont do drugs everyday then they are going to be drinking instead.

grampster

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2005, 09:15:33 AM »
The War on Drugs is a fallacy.  At best it is a money/power maker for certain influential government critters.  At it's worst is that it corrupts the legal system by trampling on civil rights, property confiscation, dubious arrests, overcrowded jails, a 5th column of snitches and a huge waste of tax money that could be spent elsewhere or not confiscated at all.

I'm 62 years old and have been around people who smoke pot since I was in my late 20's.  NOT one of them has graduated to harder drugs, been arrested, sluffed off their jobs, beat their wives or kids or not generally been an upstanding citizen in every way other than they are "drug criminals"  as defined by bluenoses that decided that mellowing out from time to time is an awful crime.   The awful crime is the really criminal, murderous network that has been set up to line the pockets of the politicians as a result of criminalizing a harmless weed that brings a little pleasure.  As for abusers, well, there are abusers of every substance known to man.  So what?  I'll bet there is a Society for the Prevention of Drinking Too Much Water.  If there isn't I'll lay odds that there is group trying to organize it and make a law about it.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2005, 09:23:40 AM »
And I'm one of those Californians who voted FOR medical marijuana in this state a few years back, and the feds came in and overturned it.  Personally, I think marijuana use is stupid-whatever the beneficial effects of cannibis sativa are, it can be delivered much more efficiently than smoking and without the  detrimental side effects of toxic gasses and carcinogens.  That said, check this out: Pot use damages brains

The OP asserted an inherent hypocrisy in supporting private firearms ownership and condemning drug use.  I'm merely pointing out that the two positions are not incompatible.  I'm not necessarily supporting the WOSD.

50 Shooter

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2005, 09:23:49 AM »
I willing to bet that more people are hooked on prescription drugs then there are on illegal drugs. It really comes down to control, the Gov wants to control what people use so they can make money off of you. Almost anyone can grow pot in their backyard and that's why they don't want you to have it.

People who become addicted let themselves get that way. The only way for them to get off drugs is to want to.

cordex

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2005, 09:57:51 AM »
Quote
The OP asserted an inherent hypocrisy in supporting private firearms ownership and condemning drug use.  I'm merely pointing out that the two positions are not incompatible.  I'm not necessarily supporting the WOSD.
I thought the original post was not about condemnation of a behavior, rather I thought it was about petitioning the government to criminalize or prosecute violators of laws pertaining to drug use.

I condemn drug use.
I don't feel good about paying for hired guns to force others to conform to what I'm comfortable with.

Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2005, 10:03:12 AM »
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I thought the original post was not about condemnation of a behavior, rather I thought it was about petitioning the government to criminalize or prosecute violators of laws pertaining to drug use.
The primary function of government is to make and enforce laws in the interests of public policy.  Is unfettered drug use in the public interest?  That's what the debate is about.  Drug use is not AFAIK, a constitutionally guaranteed right as is RKBA.

grampster

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2005, 10:29:27 AM »
Riley,

I was going to tell you something....but....hmmmm....I forgot.  Tongue

Laws are supposed to be passed for the common good.  I just have a problem with the fact that this notion has been twisted around to mean that the government must control all of our behavior.  Remember, a man that gives up a little freedom to gain a little safety, deserves neither.

Comparing guns and pot is a non issue.  Bearing arms is an au priori constitutionaly protected freedom.  (At least that's what the scroll says)  Pot is merely a weed that induces euphoria, the munchies, and a good nights sleep.  Billions are being spent to stamp it out.  That is ludicrous.  At best it ought to be treated like a traffic violation.  Hard drugs are another issue.  There are too many people and too many ways to access this stuff.  Criminalizing it has not worked, so maybe we ought to go in another direction..  We won't tho, because too many pillars of the community depend on the system we have for power and money.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Seymour Skinner

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2005, 10:41:40 AM »
I've learned a lot about addiction from listening to Dr. Drew Pinsky who co-hosts Loveline and is an addiction medicine specialist, and I feel the need to clarify some things about addiction based on some posts (most of which totally hit the nail on the head by the way).

Addiction is a specific disease state.  That specific disease state is progressive and is clinically defined as "proceeding in the face of consequences."  That disease state is identical regardless of the drug of choice, be it gambling, marijuana, sex, cocaine, opium, shopping, whatever, though obviously, some parts of treatment have to be adjusted to deal with uniqueness between various drugs of choice.

A certain biology and a unique gene predispose one to falling into this disease state.  The addictive biology is like a switch, that once flipped CANNOT be reversed.  Not by will, not by prayer, not by hope, not by JAIL, not by anything EXCEPT the person submitting willingly to a structured treatment program.  Actual addicts cannot just CHOOSE to stop.  They simply can't.  It's not a matter of weak will.

A person with the addictive gene has a 50/50 chance of passing it on to their children.   Drew has said that in studies of certain Cherokee indians and those of Irish decent, the presence of the gene was something OVER 50%!

Dr. Drew has best described addiction as the biological hijacking of the brain's survival mechanism (he says this occurs in the medial forebrain bundle).  If you've been around true addicts, you know this is true because they will put using their drug of choice ABOVE survival.

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The primary function of government is to make and enforce laws in the interests of public policy.
That is vague and wide enough to drive an open pit copper mine truck through.  That "interests of public policy" stuff only applies at the state level because the federal government does not have the authority.  Quit assuming that all "government" is the same, or part of one big whole, because it's not (at least under the founder's constitution).  

The "compelling state interest" doctrine is the most insidious and subversive nonsense that I know of.  It is extremely dangerous.  It has been used to literally justify everything in the book that would otherwise be held unconstitutional by liberty minded courts.  It says that "since drug users cost society, then society, via government power, has authority to do anything and everything to stop drug use" (which doesn't even work).  If you accept the "compelling state interest" doctrine, then you are accepting the "logic" that society has a duty to rid itself of the presence of guns, because getting rid of guns really would reduce crimes with guns (crimes with knives etc go through the roof but that doesn't change the facts).

grampster

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2005, 10:50:08 AM »
Maturbation is protected?  Constitutionaly?  Bring on the pot.  Tongue
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2005, 11:15:58 AM »
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Quit assuming that all "government" is the same, or part of one big whole, because it's not (at least under the founder's constitution).
Unfortunately, the founder's constitution doesn't carry much weight in today's legislative environment.  
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It says that "since drug users cost society, then society, via government power, has authority to do anything and everything to stop drug use" (which doesn't even work).  If you accept the "compelling state interest" doctrine, then you are accepting the "logic" that society has a duty to rid itself of the presence of guns, because getting rid of guns really would reduce crimes with guns (crimes with knives etc go through the roof but that doesn't change the facts).
Neither did the founders contemplate the huge welfare state that exists today.  If an individual is unable to feed, clothe and house himself due to excessive drug use, the state will provide those necessities.  When the state pays the bills, the state makes the rules.  Learn it, live it, love it. Smiley

Seymour Skinner

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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 11:59:56 AM »
I'm trying to follow along here,

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Neither did the founders contemplate the huge welfare state that exists today.  If an individual is unable to feed, clothe and house himself due to excessive drug use, the state will provide those necessities.  When the state pays the bills, the state makes the rules.  Learn it, live it, love it.
Soooo since the federal government pays SOME people for food stamps, it can grant itself power to tell EVERYONE they can no longer so much as possess a plant on their own property, in complete defiance of the sovereignty of statehood and the 10th amendment?

That is like saying that since government pays to clean up DUI accidents and repair the road after one, it ergo now has the legal and moral authority to tell everyone else they can't possess alcohol (which ironically WAS the argument for prohibition and required an amendment)?

Last time I checked, government can only "set the rules" on things it owns, either directly or via contract.  Your argument makes sense for the feds telling food stamp beneficiaries they can't possess some substance or they'll lose their assistance, but not the rest of the supposedly free citizens, especially within the sovereign states.

Paddy

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2005, 12:18:56 PM »
Hey, I ain't sayin't it's right. Only that the notion of 'free citizens' living in 'sovereign states' went out a long time ago.  Government has demonstrated its ability and willingness to control individual behavior on every level, right down the the income tax code.   That's the reality, as is a dead end argument that it somehow encroaches on liberties.  Government, at all levels, can and will control your personal behavior and there's not a damn thing you or I or anyone else can do about it.

Our government reflects the will of the people it governs.  Most people are not drug users and are opposed to drug use.  That's why there are laws against it.   When most people are not gun owners and become opposed to gun ownership, you will see laws prohibiting their private possession.  You can cite the founding fathers til hell freezes over and all it will get you is carted off as a looney.

Seymour Skinner

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Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2005, 12:34:59 PM »
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Hey, I ain't sayin't it's right. Only that the notion of 'free citizens' living in 'sovereign states' went out a long time ago.  Government has demonstrated its ability and willingness to control individual behavior on every level, right down the the income tax code.   That's the reality, as is a dead end argument that it somehow encroaches on liberties.  Government, at all levels, can and will control your personal behavior and there's not a damn thing you or I or anyone else can do about it.

Our government reflects the will of the people it governs.  Most people are not drug users and are opposed to drug use.  That's why there are laws against it.   When most people are not gun owners and become opposed to gun ownership, you will see laws prohibiting their private possession.  You can cite the founding fathers til hell freezes over and all it will get you is carted off as a looney.
There's a ton of truth in all that pessimism, that's for darn sure.  Trying to restore a culture of people who mind their own business may not be fully possible, but to say there's nothing we can do is just wrong.  I've been following the efforts of the Marijuana Policy Project for years, and there is TONS to be optimistic about.  Cities are passing initiatives to either legalize or lower the priority of marijuana possession.  Many states have passed medical marijuana bills, with more on the horizon.  Granted, with this issue, we're now at the level where CCW was 20 years ago, but the dam of prohibition part II is full of cracks and is leaking.  It's delayed gratification, but it's fun to help widen the cracks in that dam.  Check out what Nevada might pass next year.  Minds are starting to change like they did when right to carry laws started getting passed (even though I don't expect such a dramatic shift).

Guest

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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2005, 01:04:07 PM »
Inevitably? That's a stretch.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2005, 01:11:04 PM »
"Well, just to take a contrarian position, drug use inevitably leads to addiction and it is not long before the used is completely unable to function."

I hope that's sarcasm, 'cause if it ain't, it's an untrue statement.

Over the last forty years, I've known more people who were NOT addicted to the marijuana and cocaine that they used than I have known people who WERE addicted.  And, yes, I've known folks who were indeed addicted to some degree; some, terribly so.

As with guns, harm can be done by the human users of drugs.  both to others as well as to themselves.  My observation over the years is that our efforts to control people in these arenas have done more harm to the nation as a whole than good for the nation as a whole.

"It ain't whatcha do, it's how ya do it."  applies to both guns and drugs, whether usage or in issues of law.

Me?  I'd rather have my Bill of Rights back than either a drug-free or a gun-free country.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.