Anyone think we should have a 2-3 year mandatory draft for 18y/os?

[Guest]

Just wondering what you guys think.

[Preacherman]

Personally, I'm very much in favor of a draft for national service, but not the typical military-only draft.  I think that the draft is a defining experience in a young person's life, and very often can make boys into men, or girls into women - it forces the individual to work with a group, meet those from different social backgrounds, function together, etc.  It's a highly maturing experience.

However, to make it a military-only draft often defeats these objectives, and causes huge resentment.  I'd prefer to see a draft for all teenagers, of both sexes, where they would have to serve for a couple of years in the service of the nation.  This could include:

- Military service;
- Peace Corps;
- Assistance with national projects such as wildlife conservation, forestry, erosion control, etc.;
- Medical assistance (e.g. nursing assistance, hospital orderlies, etc.);
- Disaster relief;
- Education (particularly in more deprived areas such as Native American reservations, or projects in poorer countries);
- Public works.

This could also be combined with one's career planning.  Those who wanted to study medicine, for example, could work in a related field, and perhaps do some coursework for credit towards their future education.  Those who wanted to teach could work in the field of education, and also earn credits.  A "completion bonus" could be provided for those who successfully complete their service, to be applied to their ongoing education, or just as a cash payment to provide an incentive for them to co-operate (of course, the "completion bonus" would not be paid to those who'd given unsatisfactory service).

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

[Norton]

I'm in the same camp as Preacherman.  Some sort of service for 2 years could be the thing that makes our overindulged young people realize that there are things greater than themselves that matter.

My understanding is that the military doesn't want the draft since it dilutes the quality of the talent as they really don't want to be there.

[MaterDei]

Rather than making service compulsory I would prefer some sort of REAL life lone benefit for those who serve in the military or work certain gubmint jobs.  Different tax brackets or something like that would be something that is not a giveaway but that still holds great value.  I'm not talking about going so far as Heinlein in Starship Troopers in which only veterans were 'citizens'.  This would encourage people to take the step which we all probably agree would be best for the country and the person but without making it compulsory which I think undermines the productivity of those serving against their will.

**Disclaimer - I served in the Army for 10 years and would benefit from this plan.  

[Leatherneck]

I'm with MaterDei on this one. Lord knows we should sweeten the deal for the patriotic young Americans who give their service voluntarily. I would not be in favor of a draft. During the Vietnam era, we had a very high proportion of malingerers and misfits in the Army and Marine Corps who had been drafted. It was almost more effort at controlling them (note I didn't say "leading them") than they were worth.

But a more positive incentive in terms of pay and benefits could be done with less investment and with greater payoff, IMO.

TC

[Moondoggie]

I think mandatory national service would transform our society for the better.  This is something I have thought about for a long time.


Let those who prefer military service pursue that avenue, but there are soooo many positive things that young folks could participate in.  The benefit would be a two way street.

In addition to the ideas for service already posted I think such service could be used to:

Staff homeless shelters, especially for those interested in a career in mental health fields,
Provide assistance at fire/police stations,
Provide tutoring/assistant teacher services in public schools

In other words....What Preacherman said!

[Ben]

Same as Preacherman. Sorry to bring Hitler into it, but the arbeitzdienst (sp?) was actually a good idea. My dad had to do that AND get drafted into WW2. Basically, it was taking kids out of high school and making them work tough jobs for 6 months. In my dad's case it was cutting down trees, hauling them up and down hills, chopping them into firewood, and delivering the wood to old people who couldn't make their own.

 I think something like that, the Peace Corps as Preacherman mentioned, or military service should be "mandatory" choices that kids should have to make, based on whichever one best fits their personal philosophy at the time (or if they don't have one, throw them into the "wood chopping" category to give them perspective). Looking back, I would have appreciated having done something like that -- I think I would have matured a bit faster. If I were King, I might even go so far as to say no one could be classified as an "adult" and vote until they did one of those things.

[Guest]

Yes a 2-year period of brainwashing would definatly brighten the future of our nation. It isnt an accident that virtually every fundamentally evil nation in history has had compulsory government service. It sounds like we are favoring the Soviet model that would allow us to send our lower classes into the trenches and our rich kids into government offices for grooming, excellent idea.

It certainly isnt a violation of the concept of a free society. Clearly its OK that the people are the property of the government, and OBVIOUSLY the government can be fully trusted with such a task.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

"It isnt an accident that virtually every fundamentally evil nation in history has had compulsory government service."

I'm sure Switzerland, Norway, Sweden,  and Israel will be pleased to hear this.

[brimic]

I'm 100% against any kind of socialistic compelled 'service.' It seems to work well when the entire free world is teetering on collapse but in other times its not so good.

C_Yeager's post above is pretty much in line with my thinking.


Everyone is already doing 'voluntary' service 4 months out of the year from the time they enter the work force until the day they die by paying taxes. Who do you think really contributes more tot heis country? A 18 year old who is shipped over seas at taxpary expense to do something he/she does want to do, or an 18 year old who becomes an apprentice mason because he wants to and later opens up his own masonry business where he not only employs others, but pays in large amounts of money to the government as taxes?

A socialists wet dream- delay the entrance of youthful workers into the work force while giving them meaningless work to do for low wages while rasing taxes on the rest of productive society to not only pay for these feel good programs but to make up the loss of tax revenue created by having these young workers in the workforce.

Any politician who promotes mandatory service during peaceful times should immediately be beaten to death with a shovel.

[brimic]

I wonder if I'm the only one here who thinks that the federal government being the country's largest employer is a very very very bad thing.

However, to make it a military-only draft often defeats these objectives, and causes huge resentment.  I'd prefer to see a draft for all teenagers, of both sexes, where they would have to serve for a couple of years in the service of the nation.  This could include:

- Military service;
- Peace Corps;
- Assistance with national projects such as wildlife conservation, forestry, erosion control, etc.;
- Medical assistance (e.g. nursing assistance, hospital orderlies, etc.);
- Disaster relief;
- Education (particularly in more deprived areas such as Native American reservations, or projects in poorer countries);
- Public works.

I went right from high school to college and worked my way through college to earn degrees in chemistry and biology. I currently work for a company that produces drugs that CURE cancers. I don't see anything on your list with the possible exception of disaster relief that could come anywhere near as fullfilling of a path that I took, and I certainly am not going to deny others younger than me from the right to make their own decisions on how to live their lives.

edit: sorry to single out your post Preacherman, but this is a topic that always gets my hackles up.

[Guest]

"It isnt an accident that virtually every fundamentally evil nation in history has had compulsory government service."

I'm sure Switzerland, Norway, Sweden,  and Israel will be pleased to hear this.

I want you to read the actual statement that you quoted, read it carefully and slowly so that you can actually understand what it says.

Does it say that every government with compulsory service is evil? How about you actually refute what was stated; that virtually every fundamentally evil nation has had compulsory service.

[Winston Smith]

No.

[matis]

"I'm sure Switzerland, Norway, Sweden,  and Israel will be pleased to hear this."
________________________________________

I'm against this idea.


The countries named above have the draft for military reasons, primarily.

I don't know much about the draft in Norway and Sweden.


But Switzerland's draft has kept her out of wars for what, 400-500 years?

Even Hitler, pondering those MB rifles in the closets in each home, decided to forgo attack and made them his bankers, instead.

As for Israel, their draft is a matter of survival, plain and simple.


It is well-known (except among the looney-left) that military service is a positive and maturing experience.  But this works best in times of war and even then with volunteers.  And not all are suited for military service.

Even with the world-wide Islamo-fascist threat we face, mandatory service is not the answer.


I agree that most youth in America does suffer from self-absorption and a distortion in their understanding of life.  I tie this to the decline, indeed the vicious attack on religion that has been growing for decades, here.

This country is unique because of it's values -- which are bound up in its Judeo-Christian heritage.


So those who think themselves too enlightened for this "superstition" throw out the baby with the bathwater.  


This is a very serious problem that unless reversed will lead us to utter collapse.


However, it is NOT a socialist, bureaucracy-driven and politicized, mandatory program that will save us.


When you consider the state of the public-school system it's easy to see that such programs are part of the problem and cannot be the solution.


I don't pretend to know what the answer is.  But whatever is needed will come from the private sector, from religious organizations and, if they can be pulled away from in front of their HDTV's -- the parents.


Someone on APS or TFL or THR has a sig line that aptly relates to this discussion:

There is no social problem that cannot be made worse by giving it its own government program (paraphrasing).



matis

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I was a spoiled, delinquent, somewhat wealthy kid.  Headed down a very wrong path; fighting, vandalism, lots of drugs & alcohol.

3 semesters into college, I had a reversal of fortune and the only way to finish school for me was to join the National Guard.

I went through Army Basic Training, AIT and a tour of duty in Active service.  
It was, bar none, the BEST thing that could have happened to me.  Grew me up, helped me learn what was important in life, taught me to get along with people from all walks of society.

...and prior to the experience, I would have protested just as vocally as c_yeager, brimic, and Winston!

Not compulsory MILITARY service, but just as Preacherman described, would go a long way to silence the snot-nosed, whiney, self-absorbed girlie-men (and EMO kids!) our society has produced over the last generation.

[brimic]

FF- I'm glad you had a great experience but contrary to popular belief, not all eighteen to twentysomethings are snot nosed, spoiled,whiney, girly men and there are plenty out there who are just itching to be cut loose into the world to make their own way. 15 years ago when I graduated high school and immediately moved out on my own, I thought I had the world by the balls, and I still do. That being said, I know and work with some people who still live in their mother's basement and are 14 years old going on 35. They are the exception and not the rule. I'm not really big into punishing responsible people because a small minority of a group are irresponsible.

[Oleg Volk]

Just for the record: enslaving people, even temporarily, even for a good cause, isn't ethical. In fact, trying to implement it should be a capital crime.

[Winston Smith]

The state serves me, not the other way around. You may call that spoiled, however in other times we have called that freedom.

[atek3]

Great, two years of slavery to show people, "you really are chattle to the government."

I'm all in favor.

atek3

[Firethorn]

I agree with MaterDei on this issue.  Though I'll note that in Heinlein's book, it wasn't just the veterans who became citizens, it was anybody who did the service.  The available 'jobs' read more like Preacherman's list, and all who successfully completed the term of service became citizens(as opposed to non-voting civilians).  Matter of fact, a key feature of the government was that they COULD NOT refuse a job to anybody.  A mentally disabled paraplegic could sign up and they had to give him or her a job.  Military service was an option, but rare, as they had even higher standards than we do today.

When I think about the liberal/conservative mix, if you did tie this service to the vote, who would tend not to be able to vote more?  I can think of a number of plusses and minuses.

Nope, don't make it mandatory.

[roo_ster]

I am quite ambivalent, truth be known.  

Mandatory service in the armed forces would be good for those who were yanked into service, but bad for the military.

My case of service was not one of needeing to grow up.  I had a serious degree, prospects, and my head on my shoulders when I went into indentured servitude to Uncle Sam.  I wanted to serve, have some adventure, and make a career.  Well, I served, at least.

I think abolishing the gov't school monopoly and giving the cash to parents would go a long way to turning out better, more mature adults...in a way that would not cost any more money and that would not force people into indentured sevitude.

[The Rabbi]

Citizens of a state have both rights and duties.  Everyone screams about rights but forgets the other part.  Military service is a duty.
That said, I am totally opposed to a draft.  It is economically unsound, taking people who can provide a high level of goods and service and putting them in the same category as those who can't, depriving society of skills.  Muhammed Ali and Elvis Presley were both drafted (Ali of course resisted and went to jail)  and the US lost years of their skills and services.  Imagine if Bill Gates had been drafted instead of tinkering in his garage.
Training soldiers, especially in todays Army, is very expensive.  We would do better to send them all to camp instead.

[Guest]

Hell double no. My duty as a citizen is to not break the social contract - don't steal from others, don't hurt others, etc. Don't cost the community more than you give. That's it. I don't care if someone's a total bum, as long as his cost to society as a non-working citizen isn't more than what he puts into it. (Usually not the case, but I'm sure it could happen.) Should there be a huge social call for people to volunteer, whether it be for military or some other service? Absolutely. But I am definitely against any time period of mandotary government service.

[...has left the building.]

I'm absolutely opposed to a draft. As others have said, it hints at socialism/facism/etc., opportunity costs, state is a service to citizens not the other way around, and on and on...

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Good points raised, all the way 'round.

I'd be interested to hear Marko Kloos' thoughts on this, since IIRC he served under the 2yr mandatory service in W. Germany.

I don't think a DRAFT is a good thing.  Perhaps not even MANDATORY service.  
But I really like the idea of having some kind of service opportunities between H.S. and college as the norm, thought of as perhaps career exploration, internship, or just an opportunity to make some money.  Conservation Corps, Military, Public Works projects, whatever.