Author Topic: Umm guys...the government is being naughty  (Read 19582 times)

yesitsloaded

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Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« on: November 09, 2007, 03:31:24 PM »
If you haven't been following the news, the LAPD is starting to "map" the muslim community to establish where "possible extremists" might live. Under the guise of demographics, they are doing the exact same things that nazi Germany started doing to the Jews in the 1930s. We all need to keep a close eye on this. I don't want the government fear mongering us against anyone. This is beyond being careful, this is blatant 1984 big brother stuff. I can easily see how the next group that they go after could be those "extremist gun owners".
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2007, 03:33:39 PM »
Here is the story:

Quote
LAPD to build data on Muslim areas
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Anti-terrorism unit wants to identify sites 'at risk' for extremism.
By Richard Winton, Jean-Paul Renaud and Paul Pringle, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
November 9, 2007
An extensive mapping program launched by the LAPD's anti-terrorism bureau to identify Muslim enclaves across the city sparked outrage Thursday from some Islamic groups and civil libertarians, who denounced the effort as an exercise in racial and religious profiling.

Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Michael P. Downing, who heads the bureau, defended the undertaking as a way to help Muslim communities avoid the influence of those who would radicalize Islamic residents and advocate "violent, ideologically-based extremism."

"We are seeking to identify at-risk communities," Downing said in an interview Thursday evening. "We are looking for communities and enclaves based on risk factors that are likely to become isolated. . . . We want to know where the Pakistanis, Iranians and Chechens are so we can reach out to those communities."

Downing added that the Muslim Public Affairs Council has embraced the vaguely defined program "in concept." The group's executive director, Salam Al-Marayati, said Thursday that it wanted to know more about the plan and had a meeting set with the LAPD next week.

"We will work with the LAPD and give them input, while at the same time making sure that people's civil liberties are protected," said Al-Marayati, who commended Downing for being "very forthright in his engagement with the Muslim community."

Others condemned the project, however.

"We certainly reject this idea completely," said Shakeel Syed, executive director of the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California. "This stems basically from this presumption that there is homogenized Muslim terrorism that exists among us."

Syed said he is a member of Police Chief William J. Bratton's forum of religious advisors, but had not been told of the community mapping program. "This came as a jolt to me," Syed said.

Hussam Ayloush, who leads the Los Angeles chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the mapping "basically turns the LAPD officers into religious political analysts, while their role is to fight crime and enforce the laws."

During Oct. 30 testimony before Congress, Downing described the program broadly as an attempt to "mitigate radicalization." At that time, he said law enforcement agencies nationwide faced "a vicious, amorphous and unfamiliar adversary on our land."

Downing and other law enforcement officials said police agencies around the world are dealing with radical Muslim groups that are isolated from the larger community, making potential breeding groups for terrorism. He cited terror cells in Europe as well as the case of some Muslim extremists in New Jersey arrested in May for allegedly planning to bomb Ft. Dix.

"We want to map the locations of these closed, vulnerable communities, and in partnership with these communities . . . help [weave] these enclaves into the fabric of the larger society," he said in his testimony.

"To do this, we need to go into the community and get to know peoples' names," he said. "We need to walk into homes, neighborhoods, mosques and businesses."

To assemble the mapping data, Downing said in an interview Thursday, the LAPD intends to enlist USC's Center for Risk and Economic Analysis of Terrorism Events, which was founded four years ago with $12 million in federal funds.

In 2003, university officials said the center would focus on threats to power plants, telecommunications and transportation systems.

It recently was tapped to strengthen security at Los Angeles International Airport.

Downing said the effort would not involve spying on neighborhoods. He said it would identify groups, not individuals.

"This has nothing to do with intelligence," he said, comparing it to market research.

But in his congressional testimony, Downing said the LAPD hoped to identify communities that "may be susceptible to violent, ideologically-based extremism and then use a full-spectrum approach guided by an intelligence-led strategy."

Downing told lawmakers the program would "take a deeper look at the history, demographics, language, culture, ethnic breakdown, socioeconomic status and social interactions."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lapd9nov09,0,1646403.story?coll=la-home-center
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2007, 04:17:43 PM »
Quote
I don't want the government fear mongering us against anyone.

Why not? The tradition goes back to 1861, after all.
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Leatherneck

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2007, 04:43:15 PM »
If you have enemies in your ranks, it is smart to locate them.

Trouble is who, exactly, is the enemy now, and who might be in the future?

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Thor

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2007, 04:49:06 PM »
Had the Muslim community banded together and were vociferously opposing radical Islam, I doubt the government would be so concerned. However, time after time, it's some Muslim person that wants to wreak havoc on the US. I heard a news clip about the goings on in Pakistan last weekend. The man being interviewed was asked why they were so against the US and Musharraf?? His reply was "because MUSLIMS  hate the US". Bear in mind, he didn't specify "Pakistanis", it was "Muslims". Right there reinforced my poor opinions of Islam.
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Modifiedbrowning

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2007, 04:53:15 PM »
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Council on American-Islamic Relations
What does that mean, btw? These are people are Americans, aren't they?  Why do they need a council? Can I start up the Council on American-Catholic Relations and be taken seriously?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2007, 05:00:56 PM »
Maybe they need a council so they won't be profiled and mapped by the government. Why do gun owners need a council (the NRA)? To keep our rights from being more infringed than they already are. I think profiling these people sets a dangerous precedent of guilty until proven innocent. If I knew they were terrorists on our soil, I would say line them up and shoot them, but this whole pre-crime business is wrong.
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Thor

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2007, 05:03:50 PM »
CAIR has ties to radical Islam.
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2007, 05:04:07 PM »
You know, I might feel a little bit more charitable toward all their rights and stuff if a few less people had been dancing in the streets when New York got bombed by meat-guided cruise missiles...
 
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Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2007, 05:24:10 PM »
You know, I might feel a little bit more charitable toward all their rights and stuff if a few less people had been dancing in the streets when New York got bombed by meat-guided cruise missiles...

Some did, sure. But you imply that all, or a majority, were. That's talk-radio BS. Among other counterexamples, the Ayatollah Imami Kashani declared the attack an "act of terrorism that can only be condemned by all Muslims." In Tehran, 70,000 Iranian soccer soccer fans observed a minute of silence in honor of the 9/11 victims. In addition:

Iranians held a candlelight vigil in Tehran on 9/18.


As did Bangledeshi muslims.


Round that out with a couple Palis.


And a muslim woman from I don't know where.


We now return you to your regularly-scheduled ignorant hate-mongering, already in progress.

--Len.
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2007, 05:26:50 PM »
Isn't that a little like blaming all gun owners because Timothy Mcvey blew up that building in Oklahoma? I understand there are bad apples in the Muslim community just like there are evil Christians, but an entire neighborhood? If these people are American citizens, I would rather have a little danger than start a trend of sacrificing liberty for a false sense of safety. I seriously doubt all of the celebrated on 9/11. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the reason they are over here is that the same scum that fund Al Quiada chased them out of their own country for not being covered head to toe.
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Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2007, 05:31:48 PM »
If these people are American citizens, I would rather have a little danger than start a trend of sacrificing liberty for a false sense of safety. I seriously doubt all of the celebrated on 9/11...

You don't advocate paranoia like data mining for falafel buyers? If they weren't dangerous, these loons would be too funny for words.

Speaking of which, I suggest that everyone go out this weekend to the nearest Arab grocery for some baklava and hummus. Give the heimatsicherheitsdienst something to chew on.  police

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Ned Hamford

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 05:58:55 PM »
UPDATE 11/09:  The FBI denies this program existed.

I have mixed feelings about Operation Total Falafel Awareness.

The first being my absolutely dismay of this approach, the civil violations and waste of money and time. 
However, my second thought is how hilarious the related presentations have to be.  I want access to those goverment powerpoints.   I know they exist... LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD!
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Paddy

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 06:22:27 PM »
Round up the people here illegally and toss them out.  End of story.

Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 06:23:54 PM »
When folks start talking about holy wars, I start getting a little paranoid about the holy folks. Sorry, but I'm human.
 
Face it - if a buncha Southern Baptists had run meat-guided cruise missiles into New York, I'd _also_ welcome the FBI staking out various dunkin'zones...
 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2007, 06:29:20 PM »
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When folks start talking about holy wars
Did you at any point and time, hear anyone in that neighborhood talk about launching a holy war on the USA?
Quote
Face it - if a buncha Southern Baptists had run meat-guided cruise missiles into New York, I'd _also_ welcome the FBI staking out various dunkin'zones...
Because then all baptists would be bad, so we should wire tap all of them for our safety? I don't buy it.
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2007, 06:36:53 PM »
Well, so far, pretty much all of the al qaeda terrorists, etc., have been religious fanatics. That's kind of a common denominator. The operatives on the street are getting support from true believers in communities, etc...
 
Now, when people say that one must completely ignore the whole religious fanatic bit, I have to wonder just what we SHOULD look for? US Congressmen? American winners of distinguished military decorations? Grandmothers from Iowa?
 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2007, 06:48:30 PM »
Innocent until proven guilty. If they follow money from a known terrorist to an individual that is one thing, but mapping out an entire community on an assumption is an entirely different thing. Along your lines of thinking I guess it would be fine to wire tap you because you have made some bumper stickers that could be considered anti government, and you own guns, thus you must be planning something that needs to be stopped in advance. Your own logic betrays you.
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RevDisk

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2007, 06:50:54 PM »
You know, I might feel a little bit more charitable toward all their rights and stuff if a few less people had been dancing in the streets when New York got bombed by meat-guided cruise missiles...

A lot less than you'd think were dancing in the street.   The otherwhelming majority were shocked, angry at the same extremists, and upset that they'd be painted with the same brush.

Read a typical MSM article on guns.  Maybe one in twenty are accurate?  Don't blindly trust 'em. 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2007, 06:55:32 PM »
If you want a good example of an "arabic looking" person I'll use my friend Alex. He is Lebanese and came over here when the fanatics ruined his country. He would kill any al-queda member he could get his hands on, as would all of the rest of my former middle eastern friends.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2007, 07:06:19 PM »
Basic police work.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. This is true. In fact, most Muslims are not terrorists. Fact.

However. Fact two. Almost ALL the people trying to hurt us right now are young Muslim males.

Fact three. Al-Qaeda is on record as wanting to recruit suicide jihadists in the US.

Fact four. There are, in fact, radical imams who are recruiting impressionable young Muslim males into extremism in the US. They need to be watched.

Fact five. Due to fear of reprisal, many in Muslim communities in the US will not report on the activities of radicals, necessitating outside surveillance to watch facts two, three, and four.

Doesn't seem so outrageous now, does it?


Paddy

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2007, 07:11:00 PM »
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Innocent until proven guilty.

Wrong again.  Islamofascist terrorism is not a criminal matter.  It is an act of war for which there is no adjudication short of complete annihilation of the enemy.

Thanks for playing, anyway.  smiley

yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2007, 07:24:12 PM »
And who declared war exactly? I know Ron Paul tried to get a declaration, but no one else wanted one. Oh, are you talking about our ongoing war on nouns? Like the war on drugs, or the war on terror? I'm still holding out on the war on salami so I can turn in the neighborhood deli.

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Not all Muslims are terrorists. This is true. In fact, most Muslims are not terrorists. Fact.
Exactly.
Quote
However. Fact two. Almost ALL the people trying to hurt us right now are young Muslim males.
I thought that most crimes in this country were by young black males, statistically speaking
Quote
Fact three. Al-Qaeda is on record as wanting to recruit suicide jihadists in the US.
And I want a new car. They would also like to see us all be a happy Jew killing family.
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Fact four. There are, in fact, radical imams who are recruiting impressionable young Muslim males into extremism in the US. They need to be watched.
So a fiery sermon is not allowed anymore? What about Christians that preach about 9/11 being our fault for allowing homosexuality? I guess they are terrorists too. See Amendment 1
Quote
Fact five. Due to fear of reprisal, many in Muslim communities in the US will not report on the activities of radicals, necessitating outside surveillance to watch facts two, three, and four.

So maybe instead of mapping them, we should be protecting them from crazy radical terrorists by securing the border and protecting our own country instead of spying on our own citizens.
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2007, 07:31:37 PM »
Okay. How many folks who were not religious fanatics were involved in ramming a pair of meat-guided cruise missiles into New York, along with one into the Pentagon, and the one that had its guidance system get all ruined.
 
If you have problems answering that one...
 
How many of the folks were methodists?
 
How many were baptists?
 
How many were catholics?

How many were atheists?
 
What _really_ irritates me is that it is no longer politically correct to describe people. You don't hear on television that a black (or a white, for that matter) man carjacked someone, and is still at large. You know, that'd be a great way to immediately narrow down a suspect base?
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RevDisk

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2007, 07:50:04 PM »
Okay. How many folks who were not religious fanatics were involved in ramming a pair of meat-guided cruise missiles into New York, along with one into the Pentagon, and the one that had its guidance system get all ruined.
 
If you have problems answering that one...
 
How many of the folks were methodists?
 
How many were baptists?
 
How many were catholics?

How many were atheists?
 
What _really_ irritates me is that it is no longer politically correct to describe people. You don't hear on television that a black (or a white, for that matter) man carjacked someone, and is still at large. You know, that'd be a great way to immediately narrow down a suspect base?


Sigh.  One of my jobs post 9/11 was working with Muslim paramilitary groups outside the US.  Without getting overly specific, said folks quietly handed over the mujihadeen in their ranks or expelled them from the region.  Also kept an eye on the black market for us.  If certain bad things came on the market, they handed it over to us.  Including a number of Stinger missiles the CIA managed to 'misplace'.

They were generally pro-US, and helped us occassionally.  Not saying we were best friends and sat around the camp fire singing Kumbiya while drinking Kool-Aid.  They thought the US invasion of Iraq was just about the dumbest thing imaginable, and we didn't too highly of some of their shady attributes.  Outside the US, a lot of folks think Christian fundimentalists in the Bush administration launched the invasion of Iraq for religious purposes.  I don't agree with them, but that's their view.  From their perspective, we killed 600k in retaliation for 4k of our own loses. 

I have the same irritation you have, but I'm slightly more focused.  A branch of the Wahabbi sect centered in Saudi Arabia attacked us.  We need to hunt down that sect and deal with them appropriately.  Using 9/11 as an excuse to do whatever we want cheapens what happened and makes us less great of a nation. 

The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not pro or anti US.  They mind their own business and live their lives.  A small percentage are pro or anti US.  Fewer still are folks that will actively do anything about their opinons.  Even fewer are folks that will go out of their way to harm the US.  They are a significant threat, but not that serious in the long run.  With time, allies and focused resources, we can deal with that small percentage.
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